Rabbi Dr. Itzhak Shapira

[alon]

I am nowhere near an authority on Dr. Rabbi Shapira, however I do know there has been some controversy around him. Some of his views may be a bit extreme. And from what I do know about R Dr S I even agree with some of his more controversial views. But just an FYI. As always, anything in those books is now open to discussion or debate. 

Dan C
moderator 

Edited to not sound so offensive, since apparently it was. 

[Jasper]

he is a very controversial figure

Controversial depending on who you ask.

Some of his views are a bit extreme, even for me;

Which views are too extreme for you?

And from what I do know about R Dr S I even agree with some of his more controversial views

Which of his views do you agree with?

At any rate, since his books are being put up here just be forewarned

It doesn't seem fair to post a disclaimer for one author here when other authors of other books posted in this forum may be deemed just as or more controversial, especially since Rabbi Shapira is coming from a thoroughly Jewish perspective.

I'm saying this with all due respect to the forum moderators.

[alon]

Jun 6, 2023 0:35:20 GMT -8 Jasper said:

he is a very controversial figure

Controversial depending on who you ask. True. As I said, I even agree with him to a point.  

Some of his views are a bit extreme, even for me;

Which views are too extreme for you? I was particularly intrigued with his proposed solutions to dealing with Palestinians. He seemed to almost have a "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" mindset. He wrote an article a few years ago that got him in a bit of trouble for this viewpoint.  

And from what I do know about R Dr S I even agree with some of his more controversial views

Which of his views do you agree with? Well, aside from just killing a bunch of them because they might pose a problem later, I quite agree with expelling them en masse. 

At any rate, since his books are being put up here just be forewarned

It doesn't seem fair to post a disclaimer for one author here when other authors of other books posted in this forum may be deemed just as or more controversial, especially since Rabbi Shapira is coming from a thoroughly Jewish perspective. I either am not familiar with those authors, or they may have been posted before I was made a moderator. If you know of some and can provide something we can look at that is controversial then by all means you may post it and we (I) can look at it. If it's too bad or violates forum rules I will remove it. 

I'm saying this with all due respect to the forum moderators. Appreciate that. I am usually pretty straight forward, even a little blunt. So I can come across to people as harsh. If I thought R Shapira was that bad I would have simply removed the post and sent you a PM as to why. But he is as you say one who can speak with rabbinic authority on Torah. And I do not totally disagree with his political views or solutions to problems. If I had time I'd read and study some of his books. But as I said, my familiarity with him is limited and my studies lead me elsewhere (I am enrolled with the IBC, who also have some views I disagree with but mostly are very good; and I am in a Revelation study with my qahal, which will probably just confuse me more- eschatology not being my strong suit).

So I apologize if I've offended. But some do not handle controversy well, so while I might say it is good to read his views even if you disagree, I also think it good to forewarn. And most of his views are no more controversial than anyone else's. I do however like controversial people to some extent. Only reading those you agree with will never allow you to grow. And frankly, his "extreme" views have some merit. But the death penalty for anyone being in any way involved in terrorist activities- I'd support that. Deportation of radicals and their families- sure, as long as there are no mitigating circumstances about the family members going. I doubt many Jews would agree with me. But that's ok too. 

Bottom line, I'd say read his books. Just know be forewarned. 

[kalev89]

I like him he validated my moving away from accepting christian dogmas and creeds 10yrs ago, Ive gifted "Return of the Kosher Pig" to a few people. I like that he isnt just looking for the remnant in Europe he's been traveling to Africa other world regions to see if customs share any connection to if the diaspora settled in the region.

[kalev89]

speaking on palestine does anyone have historical knowledge of the region and events. From my grazing over

1) ancient Palestine was gone by the time of Jesus

2) To mock the  Jew rebellion Rome started calling it Palestine 

3) The region was Jew/christian before Jihad

4) wasnt recognized globally as Palestine until EU started calling it that again and at that time it was broken into tribes  

5) Region was sporadically populated until reestablishment of Israel after WW2 increasing population of region with immigration

[alon]

Jun 8, 2023 10:00:42 GMT -8 kalev89 said:

speaking on palestine does anyone have historical knowledge of the region and events. From my grazing over
Yes, and I just lost my reply for some reason. Had to reboot and now it is gone (Ugh!). I'll give it another shot.

You can do a search, but most of what you'll find has a severely slanted to an anti-Israel/Jewish bias.  

1) ancient Palestine was gone by the time of Jesus   "Judaea" was gone when the Romans instituted the Diaspora after the Bar Kochba revolt. At the time it included much land on the east side of the Rift; not just the small country we know today.     

2) To mock the  Jew rebellion Rome started calling it Palestine The land of Judaea was renamed Syria Palaestina by the Romans; and yes, it was to mock the Jews. Rome was fighting wars in the east and west of their empire, and here this small group had tied up 10 legions, 2 of which were decimated and at least one (maybe both; I'm not sure) was mauled to the point of never being reformed. So Rome was not too happy with their "Jewish problem." They went further than just 'mocking.' They killed any males suspected to be part of this movement/war, and most of the Jewish population was sent into the Diaspora- scattered all over the empire.        

3) The region was Jew/christian before Jihad I don't know who all occupied the land after the Roman Empire collapsed. The Byzantines controlled it for some time, but I don't think they did much with it either. At any rate, Ha'Eretz (The Land) fell into a desolate, unproductive state. Samuel Clements wrote of it:

"Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery, I think Palestine must be the prince … Renowned Jerusalem itself, the stateliest name in history, has lost all its ancient grandeur, and is become a pauper village; ... the pride and the glory of Israel, is gone… Palestine is desolate and unlovely. ... it is dream-land. – Mark Twain, 'Innocents Abroad'"       

At any rate, the land was unproductive and unwanted by anyone until the Jews in the late 19th cen when the Zionist movement began to grow in Europe. 

4) wasnt recognized globally as Palestine until EU started calling it that again and at that time it was broken into tribes After Rome renamed it "Syria Palaestina" it was commonly shortened to just "Palestine." It was actually known by various names, including Israel and "the Holy Land." The Ottoman Empire ruled there for about 200 yrs until 1917. But they had backed the wrong side in WWI, and so rule there (but not possession) was ceded to the British.            

5) Region was sporadically populated until reestablishment of Israel after WW2 increasing population of region with immigration Yes. I don't know who all occupied the land during those years from Rome to the Ottomans. After that (and likely before) it was mostly Muslims, with some Christians, Jews, and others. But the non-Muslim groups were more interested in religion than actually restoring the land. Then in the 1890's to WWII the Zionist movement began to buy land (at highly inflated prices) in Israel and sponsor volunteers to go there and establish kibbutzim, or "gatherings" there to reclaim the land and make it productive and self supporting. The Muslim population was more than happy to sell the land, but later less than happy with the growing Jewish population. The Jews actually improved things for the Muslims as well, but the Muslims aside from hating Jews in general (and for no other reason than they were Jews) were also jealous of the Jews standard of living and the newly productive land.

After WWII there was, as you stated a large wave of displaced Jews from Europe were making aliyah to Ha'Eretz Yisroel. The British, forgetting promises made to the Jews so they would fight for the British placed most of these people into overcrowded (concentration/refugee) camps; bowing to the pressure from oil producing Islamic states. But in 1947 the UN proposed and later voted in a partition plan so Jews and Muslims could live together in Israel. The Jews accepted, as they did every peaceful proposal from then until now. And the Muslims refused, taking an all or nothing stance which they've maintained to this day.

In 1948 the Jewish state was declared, and immediately tens of thousands of men from well equipped modern armies from Islamic states from all over the region attacked. The Jews were poorly armed, since the British had confiscated their weapons; and poorly trained, most being sabra (born in Israel) farmers or people fresh out of the concentration camps of Germany, then Britain. Most of the British camps were on Cyprus, and soon as the British gave up 'Palestine' they swarmed to Israel, and many straight from arrival were sent into combat. The Muslims mostly left, in spite of Israeli pleas to stay and live in peace. They were themselves eventually placed in refugee camps by their Muslem brethren. However these camps produced only hatred. Crowded, with poor medical care, poor sanitation, and poorly fed, and told it was all the Jews fault the people became angry and many became terrorists. The Muslim nations had more than enough room and more than adequate money to establish these people in their own lands. However they did not want anyone potentially polluting their "race," nor did they want to help these people who they had promised repatriation and fertile lands (since the Jews had reclaimed it and made it so) after the Jews were all murdered and thrown into the (Mediterranean) sea. They wanted the terrorists these camps produced.  

During the Time after the Bar Kochba Revolt until the Nation of Israel was declared there has been no government in the Land of Israel, and no group calling themselves "Palestinians." There were only occupiers, both politically and residents.

Of course, the Israeli's have defeated their neighbors several times since becoming a state themselves; gaining the East Bank territory and the Gaza Strip. The Strip was given back to the Muslims later for assurances of peace, but since it has been the place of origin for many terrorist attacks on the hated Jews since.

I want to be clear: I do not hate Muslims, however I do dislike Islam which is a murderous religion holding as one of its tenets the killing of Jews and also anyone else who does not accept Islam. Sort of their version of "To the Jew first, then to the Gentiles." There are and have been many Muslims who've been not only friends of Israel, but have helped either the nation or individual Jews. Many who now live in Israel are loyal to Israel. But the religion of Islam calls its adherants to make jihad in many ways, including violence and war. So individual Muslims may be good people, and I/we should be praying for the salvation of all Muslims. But this does not mean we should trust all Muslims nor give them a free pass to do as they please.                     

[kalev89]

Thank you for your response,

                                         filled in many gaps on my understanding! it is true its very hard now to find unbiased information/facts on the region.