Titus in Hebrew or Greek

[kalev89]

Christendom teaches Greek as being the language that the New Testament (Brit Chadasha) I havent excepted that view for a while. But a few thoughts popped in my head If anything the book of Titus a Greek convert could it be written in Greek originally?  But Then He most likely was a God fearer prior and was schooled on so he would know Hebrew and he went with Paul when he went to the leaders in Jerusalem. Thank you Ive lurked for two years haha

[alon]

Oct 31, 2022 8:42:03 GMT -8 kalev89 said:

Christendom teaches Greek as being the language that the New Testament (Brit Chadasha) I havent excepted that view for a while. But a few thoughts popped in my head If anything the book of Titus a Greek convert could it be written in Greek originally?  But Then He most likely was a God fearer prior and was schooled on Torah so he would know Hebrew and he went with Paul when he went to the leaders in Jerusalem. Thank you Ive lurked for two years haha

Nothing wrong with lurking. However it’s always good to see lurkers posting! You’ll never learn as much if you don’t ask questions or put up ideas for discussion. And it helps me because I have to go look at scripture with fresh eyes. I do not speak Hebrew, however I reread Titus using my Interlinear, a literal translation, and other reference books. Always a good thing to do. Thanks for the prompt.

What I can give you is only my opinion. It should be said that I disagree with many scholars (particularly Christian scholars), while I am in agreement with others. But I reject the idea Titus was a Gentile. Many, like Rav Shaul (Paul, the author of the letter) had both a Hebrew and a Greek name, which the Greek translators would have preferred. So might a predominantly Gentile congregation. Moreover it would be easy enough for them to substitute Greek names if the translators were anti-Semites.

If Titus were a Gentile then as you speculate he must have been in the faith for a while; long enough to be well grounded in the Hebrew scriptures. This means he would have read and understood the Hebrew language fluently and proficiently.

Rav Shaul speaks to Titus as one ordained, himself a shaliach with full authority. Examples:

Titus 1:5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,
Only a shaliach could appoint elders. And he had authority to set things in order.

Titus 2:15 These things speak and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. No one is to disregard you.
“Rebuke with all authority.” Kind of says it plainly- he had authority!

Titus 3:10-11 Reject a divisive person after a first and second warning, knowing that such a person has deviated from what is right and is sinning, being self-condemned.
He also had the authority to warn, then reject someone, implying he could remove them from the assembly of believers.

That he was well grounded in scripture, which at the time the only scripture they had were the Hebrew writings; especially Torah:
- Titus 1:14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments [entolē- injunction, an authoritative prescription, precept] of men    who turn away from the truth.
- Titus 2:1 But as for you, proclaim the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.
How could he know what were myths and commandments of men and what was sound doctrine had he not been thoroughly grounded in the TNK and other Jewish writings? And he’d necessarily be extremely well grounded in Torah.

These things point me to believe he was not a convert, but one raised in the faith; a Jew who simply believed and joined the sect of the Notsarim (Nazarenes).

This is a good question, because for centuries we were taught some of the authors of the “New Testament” were Greeks; and that some of the letters were written to Gentiles. Also that the Jews of the “New Testament era” preferred the Greek language to Hebrew, and they all spoke Greek as a common language. This is simply not so. Jews went to new places with enough men at least for a quorum (minimum 10 men). They typically formed a Jewish sector and remained (as much as possible) separated from the common people. They would have spoken the language of the place where they were, which not all these spoke Greek. However the quorum was to form a synagogue, and where there was a synagogue there was a Hebrew school, making Hebrew the only true common language. And most people prefer their own language to one foreign to them. As 1st and 2nd generation transplants they likely would have preferred the Hebrew language to any other- especially Greek!

Greek was the language of oppressors, and a thoroughly pagan tongue! Most Jews of the time hated things Greek, especially the language. “It is better to feed your son the flesh of swine than to teach him to speak Greek” was a common saying then. So again I reject the idea any part of the apostolic writings were originally written in anything other than Hebrew.

Could I be wrong? Sure. But so can those saying the authors preferred Greek; or for that matter that any of the scriptures could have been written in Greek:
- Romans 3:1-2 Then what advantage has the Jew [is the advantage of the Jew]? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way.  To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles [λόγιον logion- an utterance] of God.
- “For I the Lord do not change;” (Mal 3:6a). God does not change, and He spoke to Moshe in Hebrew when giving Torah, and His prophets spoke Hebrew in His stead when giving us the TNK. Therefore it is a safe assumption that the Apostolic writings were given us in the Hebrew tongue as well.

Now, for whatever reason God has allowed it to come about that all we have are well over 1500 Greek documents for the different parts of our “New Testament.” And most of these disagree, some drastically. This likely means they were transliterations which reflected the beliefs of the translators, themselves steeped in pagan mythology more than sound Hebrew doctrine. It is what we have, so the argument over Hebrew or Greek primacy should not be divisive. The place I currently worship mostly (not everyone) believes much of these letters were written in Greek. Regardless, their doctrine is sound. In fact, there is a lot of good and extensive knowledge there among the congregation.

Nor should this make us doubt New Testament scripture. The truth is still there, we just have to work a bit to dig it out. And we must be well versed in Torah that our discernment is good. It can be easy, especially using just our English translations to fall into bad doctrine otherwise. Always be aware that if it seems to disagree with Torah, something is wrong. Dig deeper.

So was Titus a Gentile? Did “Paul” write to him in Greek? I’d say just keep in mind that whatever we believe, we could be wrong. Is the question important? Yes. Remember, we are trying to get into the mindset of those who wrote these letters as well as those the letters were written to. However it is not so important as to cause division within the body. Answer the important questions and understand the issues raised in the letter first. Then, using what you (and I agree) believe to be true, dig deeper.

Really good question. Thanks.
Dan

[kalev89]

  Sorry I thought there would be a replies notification, then when i noticed your response my brain was elsewhere. I was recently struggling digging into what is Grace (for myself) but also to prepare to teach a Bible mens group. Grace was being used alot but as an abstraction or  a cop out to not have responsibility in action when Hebrew is a concrete language of action so how it was being used didnt sit well. Ill share what i studied in the terms thread for constructive criticism later. 


   Thank you Alon!  Sorry for any grammar errors


A quick autobiography haha. I was raised in a Baptist church stepped away became scientific atheist for two years 18-20 I wasnt getting answers on supposed discrepancies on what the science curriculum in school was teaching and the Bible. Realized the error everything came into being  so there had to be a cause I studied all religions and philosophy to see which was right and came back to the church where i heard of spiritual gifts. Looked into it and soon after I was being taught to be a minister. Thats when I learned the beauty of Word study but I could only read and prepare sermons using the 4 Gospels and the Greek because everything prior is  done away Jesus made a new and he spoke Greek. 

Matthew5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 

Opened my eyes,  everything he taught was from the prior books! the gospels and Pauls writings werent written yet and if he was a Jew he spoke Hebrew. I ended up getting shunned because I asked questions and was "lead astray from studying too much". From there  it started my journey questioning what happened, why Is there no respect for the "old" if we are grafted into Israel why a new religion the separation. 

I have not been to a church that has not disrespected, demeaned, castaway, diminished the "Old Testament" since.Ill still try and pay respect to whats being taught but its hard when a sermon goes "the law is un-compassionate but Jesus is compassion" or  "todays prophets that prophesy comparable to the old testament ones are wolves in sheeps clothing "! 

1 Timothy 6
Teach and exhort people about these things. 3 If anyone teaches differently and does not agree to the sound precepts of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and to the doctrine that is in keeping with godliness, 4 he is swollen with conceit and understands nothing 

Much of the understanding or Doctrine is contrary to the = Godly instruction.  

One cause I found was the Hebrew vs Greek as you stated. In Hebrew belief or understanding is not separated from your action but in Greek you can act contrary to your belief as long as you have the right thought. 


This is why I was thinking on Titus him being Greek to them means it was written in Greek a reason to not put on the right worldview glasses.


Galatians 2

1 Then after fourteen years I again went up to Yerushalayim, this time with Bar-Nabba; and I took with me Titus.
2 I went up in obedience to a revelation, and I explained to them the Good News as I proclaim it among the Gentiles - but privately, to the acknowledged leaders. I did this out of concern that my current or previous work might have been in vain.
3 But they didn't force my Gentile companion Titus to undergo b'rit-milah


I found this it might be the same Titus. But still the points you made stand 


 

Thank you again for your response  helped I used some already. I Was watching "The Chosen" series on Amazon, on accident I watched the last episode of the first season before the rest. There were two moments that stuck out. A character stated "as it says in the Pentateuch" instead of the ! There was another point where the Romans were barring study that it could only take place in the synagogue. He said "make sure its in Latin Aramaic and Greek so that there is no confusion" the show left out Hebrew?!! Its as if they purposely are separating from the Hebrew .  I brought this up recently with an older Pastor friend He said he knows scholars and that they and others agree that Aramaic was the dominant language not Hebrew and Hebrew was only used in the Synagogue. I brought up some of your points on the Jews respect for their language but he wouldnt except them because the christian scholars consensus there was no point in continuing haha. 





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[alon]

Nov 9, 2022 12:33:34 GMT -8 kalev89 said:

...
This is why I was thinking on Titus him being Greek to them means it was written in Greek a reason to not put on the right worldview glasses.


Galatians 2

1 Then after fourteen years I again went up to Yerushalayim, this time with Bar-Nabba; and I took with me Titus.
2 I went up in obedience to a revelation, and I explained to them the Good News as I proclaim it among the Gentiles - but privately, to the acknowledged leaders. I did this out of concern that my current or previous work might have been in vain.
3 But they didn't force my Gentile companion Titus to undergo b'rit-milah


I found this it might be the same Titus. But still the points you made stand 


 

Thank you again for your response  helped I used some already. I Was watching "The Chosen" series on Amazon, on accident I watched the last episode of the first season before the rest. There were two moments that stuck out. A character stated "as it says in the Pentateuch" instead of the Torah! There was another point where the Romans were barring study that it could only take place in the synagogue. He said "make sure its in Latin Aramaic and Greek so that there is no confusion" the show left out Hebrew?!! Its as if they purposely are separating from the Hebrew .  I brought this up recently with an older Pastor friend He said he knows scholars and that they and others agree that Aramaic was the dominant language not Hebrew and Hebrew was only used in the Synagogue. I brought up some of your points on the Jews respect for their language but he wouldnt except them because the christian scholars consensus there was no point in continuing haha.

I wondered if Gal 2:3 would come up. How can I say Titus was Jewish when scripture here clearly says he was “Greek?”

First off, as I said earlier we have over 5800 source texts for the “New Testament,” and most disagree. Many were translating these documents and rewriting them to suit their own theologies. Recall these were just letters, not considered scripture at the time. They wouldn’t be compiled in a ‘canon’ for a few hundred years (@ mid 4th cen). Some will argue this, but I agree because it coincides with the 1st Council of Nicea and the beginning of the Christian Church (which absolutely didn’t exist prior and really would not exist close to what we know it as for over 600 yrs.).

Marcion said of Galatians that everyone was writing their own version, so he wrote his as well! Origen also commented on the several varying document versions that later would become the New Testament. And Galatians got far more than its share of the tampering, probably because it is the most difficult of Rav Shaul’s letters and the easiest to twist to their own thinking.

All that said, I think it is very possible the letter could have been changed to reflect the possibility of Titus being a Gentile. But wait, there’s more:

Greek- G1672- λλην Hellēn; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek speaking person, especially a non-Jew: - Gentile, Greek.

“Especially,” but not necessarily a non-Jew. And it just could mean he spoke Greek; not even that he spoke it exclusively. It is also possible he was a Jewish citizen of a Hellenist country or region in the diaspora. And remember, Strongs follows closely the catholic (universal) model as set down by the church fathers who absolutely had their own agenda. And part of that agenda was to remove as much Judaism as possible, making themselves an entirely new religion:

Clement of Alexandria- All the churches were Greek religious colonies. Their language was Greek, their organization Greek, their writers Greek and their ritual Greek. Thus the church at Rome was but one of a confederation of Greek religious republics rounded by Christianity”. He said this between 150-200 AD.


In his own words, the church was thoroughly pagan Greek and in no way Jewish. It was also not unified in teachings or in theologies. It was a “confederation rounded by Christianity.” In other words, all they really had in common was that in some degree they accepted Jesus as the Christ, and they removed as much as possible the stigma of Judaism from their worship and theology. And there are many similar quotes, some quite explicit by the church fathers over the centuries.

You seem to have come to a pretty good understanding on your own. This is my take on the issue of Titus being Gentile. Just something to consider; but remember I am no scholar. So take it for what it is and come to your own conclusions.

[kalev89]

The 5800 differing texts didnt jump out at first... WOW!  I havent looked too much into the gathering of the scripture beyond LXX coming from Alexandria so Greek influenced and Marcion being a separatist so he wanted to make Christianity its own book, Ill have to actually pay it some attention. 

Thank you again

[alon]

Nov 11, 2022 19:26:24 GMT -8 kalev89 said:

The 5800 differing texts didnt jump out at first... WOW!  I havent looked too much into the gathering of the scripture beyond LXX coming from Alexandria so Greek influenced and Marcion being a separatist so he wanted to make Christianity its own book, Ill have to actually pay it some attention. 

Thank you again

Many tried to bend scripture to fit their own preferences. And different translations can use any or the existing "original" source documents. Then they can translate what they have very differently. So yes, it is good to pay attention to the details and those things not readily seen. However those letters were written by devout men under the unction of God, and He can protect what is His. So the truth is there. We just have to be diligent to find it and honest enough to not read in our own prejudices.

Also I have told this here on the forum before, but I once asked someone who had been on staff at a major translation and study organization how they knew which of the source documents were correct. Some just use the oldest documents they can find, which can be a bit problematic. So the more honest also add from different sources either in italics, brackets, or subtext (such as footnotes). But there must be some standard applied to see which of these are correct. And there is. The answer: Torah! They use Torah as their benchmark.

So I do not want to make anyone mistrust scripture. Just encourage everyone to be diligent in searching out whatever you read or study. Think; don't just read through with the mind in neutral. Or as you put it, "actually pay it some attention."