Four Horsemen of Revelation 6

[mosheli]

In our looking at prophetic events in Revelation and other biblical books we start with looking at the 4 horsemen of Revelation 6. Of the 4 horsemen the 2nd red one is the easiest one to identify and the 3rd black one the next easiest, so we will do them first rather than doing the 4 all in the order they are in the source.

Revelation/Apocalypse:
"6:3 And when he opened the seal the 2nd, I heard the 2nd living creature saying, "Come!" 6:44 And went/came forth another horse, bright/fiery red. And to the (one) sitting on it was granted/given to him to take the peace from the earth, and that one another they will/should slay/kill. And was given to him a sword great (or a great sword)."

Zechariah:
"1:8 "I saw (a vision) by night, and behold, a man riding (up)on a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that (were) in the bottom (or "a ravine") ; and behind him (were there) red horses, speckled/brown, and white. .... 1:10 And the man who/that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, "These (are they) whom Yhwh has sent to walk/go to/back and fro/forth through the earth." 1:11 And they answered the angel of Yhwh that/who stood among the myrtle trees, and said, "We have walked to/back and fro/forth through the earth, and behold, all the earth stills still and is at rest." .... 6:2 In the 1st chariot (were) red horses; in the 2nd chariot black horses; 6:3 and in the 3rd chariot white horses; and in the 4th chariot grisled-and-bay/dappled horses, all of them powerful. .... 6:5 And the angel answered me and said unto me, "These (are) the 4 spirits/winds of the heavens/sky, which go forth from standing before Adonai (the Lord) of all the earth. 6:6 The black horses which (are) therein go forth into/outtoward the north country; and the white goforth/wentout after them (east or west? or also north?) ; and the grisled/dappled go/went forth toward the south country."

The red horseman could represent either:
War(s).
Revolution(s).
Socialism/Communism/Marxism/Leftists.
The best match is probably war(s) but we will give reasons why for each.

Socialism is possible because:
Fiery red horse can match the red(s) of Communism/Socialism. Socialism is also associated with revolution(s).
The 2nd horseman is associated with the 2nd living creature whose face is an ox, and some people correspond the 4 living creatures with the 4 gospels/evangelists the 2nd of which is Mark which name is simila to Marx. 2nd horseman in Revelation could match 2nd beast in Daniel which was a bear which is a symbol of Russia (and/or the bear might be linked with Japheth who may match Asia and/or Europe). The red horse(s) in Zechariah is/are also implied to be either East or West (or else also north or also south).
There has been alot of Socialism especially in the last couple/few centuries (Social Charter, Marx & Engles, Social Democracy, Lenin, Russia/USSR, Christian Social party, National Socialism, Yugoslavia, Labor Party, Trade Unionism, Social Credit, Socio-Economic, Social Engineering, "Socialised Health"). (Not that we are saying all socialism is bad/wrong, only some like Communism is. I'm not sure whether Zechariah implies the horses are sent from God or Yeshua, or from "Antichrist" or Devil or pope, and whether the whole earth being at rest & peace is good or bad/fake.)
This match could also fit with the "walk back and forth through the earth" in Zechariah because it is not one event but is around for sometime, and it could fit with "all the earth is at rest and in peace" in Zechariah because being one element in modern politics it could contribute to present-future false seeming peace/utopia.

Revolution(s) is possible because:
Red is the colour associated with revolution(s) especially socialist ones, and with spilt blood (and "hot blood") and fire(s) and danger which are associated with them.
Revolution(s) can also match "kill one another".
There have been alot of revolutions especially in the last couple/few centuries (Industrial Revolution, French Revolution, Year of Revolutions 1848, Russian Revolution, Cultural Revolution, Sexual Revolution).

War(s) is possible because:
Red is the colour of blood and fire(s) which are associated with war(s).
The horseman is said to take peace from the earth and says "that they should kill one another", which can match war, and furthermore the "from the earth/world" in the Revelation verse (and in the Zechariah verse) might suggest world war(s).
The great sword also can match war(s), and furthermore could match the Great War.
There have been alot of wars in the last couple/few centuries (Crimean war, Napoleonic wars, American civil war, Boer war, WW1, Class war, Spanish civil war, WW2, Malayan war, Cold War, Korean war, Vietnam war, Falklands war, Star Wars, War Games, War in Kosovo, Gulf war, War on Terror, Russo-Ukrainian war, speculated coming WW3 (which might link with Woe Woe Woe?)) The two greatest wars which involved the "world" are WWI or the Great War, and WW2.

The 4 horseman coming after the 7th church Laodicea (Victorian period London?) and opening/heralding all the following events might also mean that the horsemen might have already come in the last couple/few centuries and/or already/still be here.
Moreover the candidate matches for the preceding white horse and the succeeding black horseman may also support one of these candidate matches for the red horseman in that there may be a sequence match, eg the red horseman and black horseman could possibly match the Great War and the Great Depression/Slump, or could match Socialism and Industrialism/Capitalism (or Fascism), or war followed by famine. (But we have to address these other horsemen in further posts to be able to see if any past/present/future sequence is evident.)
Though on the other hand Zechariah saying "walk back and forth through the earth" and "all the earth is at rest and in peace" might imply future global scene and world peace first before the horsemen. Though the Zechariah verses together with the Revelation verses and with our candidate matches could imply that these movements/isms or events or whatever come first and lead to present-future a apparent world peace and global scene. (Compare "when they say peace and safety then will sudden destruction fall upon them" implies they will achieve a seeming peace/paradise: no more wars, no more crime, no more sexism/racism/ageism / nationalism/tribalism, no more "bludgers/beggars", no more "dictatorship/tyranny/authoritarianism", etc.)

(If anyone can spare any prayers I am still stuck in hell bad situation wrongs, and still being troubled/persecuted even at this very moment by fiber or whatever works in the road/neighbours yet again.)

[alon]

There is and has been a lot of speculation, discussion, and argument about the meaning of these four horsemen. Most of this is based in and on Christianity. By that I mean they use Christian sources and Christian thinking. In this they regard Revelation as an end times book meant for them alone. History is a line along which things happen, every event only occurring once even though it resembles past events. However once you reject this approach and take the Hebraic view that time is plotted on a spiral along which events reoccur periodically things become more clear.

Another thing which must be addressed is the time of the writing of the book. Most Christian sources place this at about 92 CE or shortly thereafter. However I disagree, for a couple of reasons. First is there is no mention of the destruction of the Temple (70 CE). This was such a watershed event in Jewish life that any significant writing would likely have mentioned it. Therefore all the books of the (so called) New Testament were likely written in the @40 years between the death of Yeshua and the destruction of the Temple.

Next, there are a lot of stories about where and when the apostle John died, most of them catholic/Catholic, none of them that likely. Most say he was boiled in oil, and most of those say he either survived or came back to life. No credible sources tell us. So even though he was apparently young (relative to the original 12) we do not know if he was martyred or met some other fate; or possibly lived a long life. However had such a towering figure have lived a long life you’d think there would be more in the biblical record, or at least in some recorded account than the early years of the Notsarim.

Revelation was written to give hope and encouragement to Jewish believers and proselytes in Asia Minor. Jews there were undergoing harsh persecution under Nero, who blamed them for the fire that destroyed Rome. When he died (suicide in, I believe 68) the empire was in turmoil. They went through 4 emperors in the space of a year. There were also many natural disasters at the time, most notably earthquakes, which Turkey is known for. These could leave cities uninhabitable because the stone walls became unstable. That it has application to later times and events, especially the end times is part of its being the infinite word of God. However relating it to contemporary countries and events can be stretching the point, and obfuscates the meaning

"Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, "Come!" And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer. When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword. When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" And I looked, and behold, a black horse! And its rider had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine!" When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth." ~ Revelation 6:1-8

To understand them, I believe it best to take them in the order they are given:

The White Horseman (Rev 6:2)- he wears a crown and holds a bow, and is bent on conquest. This is a violent event and has happened many times in history; and most often is oppressive and results in social upheaval. It can also result in deprivations in the country  as men and material are diverted to the other efforts. In the end times this rider may be the antichrist, and his and the other depravations will be much worse than anything seen before. However all this has been seen before, many times.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week [seven], and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

So the antichrist will wage war and spiritually oppress believers.     

The Red Horseman (Rev 6:4)- carries a large sword representing war and violence. The conquest driven rider uses violence to achieve his goals. Conquest almost always leads to war, which we see here waged by the sword wielding rider. In the end times this will be on a global scale (actually about 1/4 of the globe, roughly what the other 2 world wars involved), which you’ve pointed out we have already seen twice now.

The Black Horseman (Rev 6:5-6)- wars destroy crops and use up much more. Further production may be effected if too many people are diverted to fight. Then there is always bureaucratic mismanagement of resources. Also food is often denied the conquered so they are more focused on survival than fighting; and in any event they are too weak to do much. Famine is therefore a natural result of wars. That the wheat and barley, grain food staples are destroyed represents this famine. That the oil and wine are not destroyed represents that, as usual the elite are still well provisioned.

The Pale Horseman (Rev 6:8)- sickness and death, the natural result of all the preceding.

[mosheli]

Good view points thanks Alon.
(Re the temple that could be right, but I wonder then if John wouldn't have seen the temple in Revelation as different to Herod's one?)
(Didn't Nero blame christians/messianics (though they would have mostly been Jews at that time) not Jews generally? Unless Galilean confounds messianics and zealots?)
(Its strange Paul and John don't seem to meet or know each other in Acts etc?
Though Peter might have been passing on greetings from Rome/Paul to Asia/John?)
I'm not sure Black Horseman relates to crops famine. I think the colour black might relate to soot and smog/pollution of industrialism, black suits, etc. (Though interestingly I read yesterday that alot of Europeans were starving after WW2.) But I will post on the Black Horse and other two later.

[mosheli]

We have looked at the 2nd, Red Horse(man) and given 3 possible past/present/future candidate matches. We will now look at the 3rd, Black Horse(man).

Revelation 6:
"And when he opened the seal (the) 3rd I heard the 3rd living creature (man/angel) saying come! And I looked and behold a horse black and the (one) sitting on it having a pair of scales/balances in the hand of him. And I heard (something) like a voice in (the) midst of the 4 living creatures saying a choenix/silver-piece / measure/litre/quart/kilogram of wheat for a denarius/penny/day's-wages and 3 choenixes of barley for a denarius/penny/days-wages and the oil and the wine not you should injure."

Zechariah 6:
"In the 1st chariot (were) red horses; and in the 2nd chariot black horses; .... .... The black horses which are therein go forth/out into/toward the north country; and the white will go forth after them; and the grissled/dappled go/went forth toward the south country."

The 3rd Black Horseman of Revelation 6 is usually/often presumed to be "famine". This might be right, but I have some doubts and am not so certain as others are. The verses do not necessarily imply famine, they could imply inflation or other similar things.

We have these possible candidates for the Black horseman:
famine/starvation.
inflation / (Great) depression / slump.
Industrial Revolution / Industrialism.
Capitalism.
The Black Plague/Death.
Libra.

Let us look at some reasons for each candidate.

Famine/starvation is possible because:
The wheat and barley for a penny/day's-wages may imply shortage of grain due to famine or war.
Famine can come after war (red horse?) Alot of Europeans were suffering starvation after WW2.
The black colour of the horse could relate to death which is associated with starvation, and/or with plague (which came after war (red horse?)).
3rd horseman could match 3rd world (which has more problems with food shortage and famine)?
Barley could link with barley sugars (40 hour famine).
The 4th "pale" horseman verses also mention famine.

Inflation/Recession/Depression/Slump/Crash is possible because:
The verses speaking of scales and a measure of wheat/barley for a penny could be due to either shortage of wheat/barley (famine) or a prices/wages/employment/production/trade problem (inflation).
Inflation and the Great Depression/Slump (black horse?) came after WWI (red horse?)
The voice coming from amidst the 4 living creatures could relate to the stock market, and/or inflation & the Great Depression/Slump (which effected 28 or more countries around the 4 quarters of the world)?
The black colour could relate to Black Thursday and Black Tuesday & the Great Depression or Black Friday 1873 & Long Depression. "Black friday also refers to any particularly disastrous day on financial markets. The first Black Friday (1869)...." In the financial world the term black day often refers to a dramatic drop in the stock market. The term Black day usually refers to a tragic date. The Latin niger "black" also meant "bad, impropitious". Black also relates to mourning and evil/darkness which both fit the depression and suffering of many people.
The 3rd horseman could relate to Tuesday being the 3rd day of week in biblical world view. Wheat that is mentioned in the biblical verse also figures in the Great Depression: "Hardest hit were wheat, ...", "world prices for commodities such as wheat... plunged" (ref Great Depression, Wikipedia). Wheat is also especially associated with bread which may represent daily bread and livelihood/income.
The oil and wine part of the Black Horse verses might imply the rich/wealthy who were presumably not as hurt by the Great Depression as the poor. The wine might also link with "The Grapes of Wrath" associated with the Great Depression?
"Galloping inflation" could also match the black horse of the 3rd horseman of Revelation?
The Great Depression of 1929 seems a good candidate. But there are also some other candidates: Black Friday 1869, the Long Depression 1873, the severe economic crisis following the collapse of the USSR (red horse?) 1990s, the Great Recession 2008. But they are not all associated with Black and not all following a great world war (red horse).

The Industrial Revolution and Industrialism are possible because:
Inflation is associated with industrialism.
The colour black could be from coal or soot or smog/pollution.
Industrialism came before/during/after socialism (red horse?) came (some time between Napoleon and WWI).
The black horse in Zechariah is toward the north, which is where Europe & the US in some other biblical passages, and it is in Europe & USA where industrialism & capitalism originated, and were the Great Depression hit the most.

Capitalism is possible because:
The scales and day's wages and "don't harm the oil and wine" can relate to gap between rich/wealthy/haves/elite and the poor/disadvantaged.
The 3rd horseman is associated with the 3rd living creature which has face of a man/angel which could fit capitalism?
Black horse could link with prevalence of black/charcoal/dark & grey or brown suits/clothes in modern corporate/business world (esp in some places like NZ) (and by extension black shirts/uniforms of fascism which some group with capitalism), and with the soot/smog/pollution of industrialism which is associated with capitalism. Black can also relate to evil/darkness and power/authority and conspiracy and elegant fashion and anti-social and servitude/slavery which all link with capitalism/corporatism/commercialism/consumerism. "Black Friday (the day after Thanksgiving Day...) is traditionally the busiest shopping day of the year. ... "Black Friday" indicates the point in the year that retailers begin to turn a profit, or are "in the black", because of the large volume of sales on that day." Black is also the most common colour for limosines and official cars of government officials. The tuxedo was always black until the 1930s.

Libra is possible because:
The scales/balance could match Libra.
Libra might link with statue of Liberty of America (which country is especially linked with capitalism, and stock market, and great depression etc, as well as also with crops agriculture).

The reasons why the Black Plague/Death may have been possible are because:
Black is the colour of death.
The Black Plague is depicted as a reaper riding a pale horse in a medieval/modern painting, and the "Black" of the name Black Plague/Death is the same word as the "Black" of the Black Horse in the Revelation verse.
However this candidate is not possible because it is a different kind of event type details (plague) to that in the Revelation verse (famine or inflation), and the horse in the painting is not black.

The Great Depression seems the best candidate of the six.

So in conclusion so far the most likely matches for the 2nd Red Horseman and 3rd Black Horseman are World War One (&/or Two?) and the Great Depression. (This means we may already in the "future" chapters of Revelation after the 7 Churches?* Though the horses might not just be one event but series of wars and depressions of last 1-2 centuries.) With the candidates for these two horseman we can now look more easily at candidates for the 1st, White Horseman and the 4th/last "Pale" Horseman.

(* The 4 Horsemen are often assumed to be still future events. However they might have already been and/or already be here/around. Some think the 4 horsemen match the later Roman empire, or they could match between then and now, or they could have come after the 7th church Laodicea (Victorian London?) between about Napoleon and now, or they could be future. Considering the evidence for Laodicea matching London, and the red & black horse matching World War1 & Great Depression it is tentatively feasible we are already in the "future" chapters of Revelation 4-22, which would be special/edifying. But don't believe me, weigh and watch and read and pray and discuss it yourselves.)

[alon]

Apr 7, 2022 17:19:05 GMT -8 mosheli said:

Good view points thanks Alon.
(Re the temple that could be right, but I wonder then if John wouldn't have seen the temple in Revelation as different to Herod's one?) Even if he had, the destruction of the 2nd Temple and subsequent events were such a game changer for Judaism as a whole that they would have had to be mentioned, if only tangentially.     
(Didn't Nero blame christians/messianics (though they would have mostly been Jews at that time) not Jews generally? Unless Galilean confounds messianics and zealots?) Yes, Nero blamed the Jews; especially the Notsarim. There were no "Christians" at the time. The term had been introduced as a derogatory appellation for folowers of Yeshua, but there was no group calling themselves that. Believers were either Jewish adherents of the sect of the Notsarim, or they were Gentiles- either proselytes to that sect or God-fearers following the sect but not fully committed yet.    
(Its strange Paul and John don't seem to meet or know each other in Acts etc? Maybe they did and it wasn't recorded. I really do not know.    
Though Peter might have been passing on greetings from Rome/Paul to Asia/John?)
I'm not sure Black Horseman relates to crops famine. I think the colour black might relate to soot and smog/pollution of industrialism, black suits, etc. (Though interestingly I read yesterday that alot of Europeans were starving after WW2.) But I will post on the Black Horse and other two later. My reply was necessarily brief, but yes, the Black Horseman could relate to smoke. Wars and earthquakes cause massive fires. When prophecy speaks of a blood moon, this is what it means as dense smoke turns the moon and sun as well  blood red. The woes of this figure are not restricted.

I'd still advise caution relating these prophecies too strictly to modern meanings. Not saying they cannot apply, however you should start with what it meant to the original writers and those it was originally meant for, then maybe follow through history to today and the near future. Among the many benefits of this approach it will give you focus and a base for your later interpretations. 

Starting with today is the same trap as gets Christianity when they interpret the New Testament first based on their contemporary understanding then make the Old Testament match that. It never works that way; the old ALWAYS interprets the new! Also, starting with the new we tend to read in way too much of our own prejudices to our interpretation. I'll give an example I think I see in your post. You said: "Black horse could link with prevalence of black/charcoal/dark & grey or brown suits/clothes in modern corporate/business world (esp in some places like NZ) (and by extension black shirts/uniforms of fascism which some group with capitalism), and with the soot/smog/pollution of industrialism which is associated with capitalism."

Now I too am starting with my own contemporary bias here, however true capitalism is the ONLY system that has ever produced true equality. The problem is we always invest that with a social agenda, polluting it to the point graft, corruption, and all the ills of Communism to some degree destroy those benefits. So in my view the "Black" represents socialism, not capitalism. Now, we could argue back and forth about that, IF this were a political forum. My point is we both started with our own biases to come up with a vastly different idea what that horseman represents. And we are already at polar opposites of the spectrum with no room for compromise.

However, if we start with a basic 1st cen Jewish understanding we can arrive at a place where, yes we could see at least the possibility of these and a lot more meanings. We can also see the true effectiveness of this prophecy throughout history. I'd still say be careful and not go too far off the rails, but that train can still pull a lot of weight!  
 

    

[mosheli]

I agree that the bible/scriptures/Tanak can have more than one layer of interpretation/application/fulfilment, and that history is cyclical with repeats of similar events (both of which are interesting re Messianic fulfilled prophecies that anti-Messianics claim don't match Yeshua but match other things), and that the Revelation prophecies may relate to John's times not or not just present-future, and that the OT/scriptures interpret the new/scriptures, and that Jews or Jewish view/perspective/understanding have better insight/understanding of biblical things, and that there are alot of false Roman christian ideas in christianity. Though in all my looking for matches for the things in Revelation 6-17 I could not see very good possible matches for Roman times (John to ca 480s) or Middle Ages. They seem to have matches from about 1700s/1800s/1900 onwards. Revelation must refer to events from/after John to the "end", so while I accept the OT interprets the NT, the events are not then-past (except as cyclic repreats) but then-future. I have tried very hard to looks for any possible matches and for the best matches and to give strong details matches evidences. I think I will not post the remaining two White and "Pale" Horsemen now since maybe it is not good/right.

(I'm not sure I agree (or understand?) about true capitalism being the only system that produced true equality, but I won't get into political debates here. I don't object to all capitalism, I agree in private property being important, etc. But I think capitalism has evils like socialists pointout, and like bible says about Cain "gain" and mammon and the rich/wealthy etc. Likewise I don't wholly agree with all of "socialism", but it is not all wrong/bad. Americans and the right tend to wrongly see all socialism and believe they ar taking other peoples money etc, but it is not actually quite true. I tend to favour a middle way balance between capitalism and socialism. Though everyone has his own vine and fig tree might be abit like what you maybe mean.)

[alon]

 I took your post and couched it in the extreme sense as well as my own view stated in an extreme so I could illustrate a point. The politics was not the point; rather the mindset. As we both pointed out, this is not the place for political debate. I doubt if either of us is extremist except in our search for biblical truth.

Throughout history there have been conquerers, wars, famine and death; along with all the other evils those horsemen may represent. Rome itself was a conqueror, and constantly at war with either neighbors who attacked them or who they were trying to conquer; or with rebels within the empire. They could be and often were oppressive, especially to the Notsarim who would not bend the knee and declare their emperor a god. Rome had no problem with your worshiping another God, as long as you also worshiped their false god, the emperor. Fail to publicly do that and you could be tried for treason, sedition, or any number of capitol offenses that might find you attached to a pole on the roadside or facing death in an arena as a public spectacle. Add to this the natural disasters occurring in Asia-minor in and around the 1st cen and you have an apocalyptic vision that might well be a type of the end times. And while this did not involve 1/4 of the entire world, a look at a map will show that even at the height of the empire this region encompassed at least 1/4 of the Roman world. Did these calamities occur in the entire region at once? No. But then did Germany invade every country at once? In fact, did they even invade half the countries they were at war with? No. And if memory serves there was even worse oppression and worse disasters later on, but this in no way nullifies the fact Revelation was written to assure believers in Asia-minor in the time period just before the Temple was destroyed. That it applies to all history, especially the end times only shows the depth of scriptural meaning and relevance. Still, to truly understand this or any scripture we must understand its context. And this includes who, what, where, when, how, and why; and in their original appositeness.           

[mosheli]

I agree that the 4 horsemen (conqueror, wars, "famine"/inflation, etc) could match anywhere/everywhere between the resurrection and future. (But not all history before then, though there may also be a layer of meaning match for all history including then too, like the 4 ages in Daniel) But there are some reasons for thinking it does also relate to present/future not just then, just like the 7 churches relate both to then and to the ages after then until present. Rev 1 says the things you have seen, the things that are, and the things coming after. And Rev 4 says "after this".
As to the White Horseman I won't post my piece here but in brief it looks like it represents Christianity (either false or genuine). Eg compare "in this sign conquer". Compare similarity with the later white horse. Compare meanings/symbolism of color white. Compare the conquering involves no war. Compare meaning/symbolism of bow. This would fit your view because Christianity was any/all time between the resurrection and John's time and now and future.
(The 3rd Black is not famine as I have shown.)
So maybe they have been riding around since the resurrection. Maybe the present war in Ukraine is Red horse still/again currently galloping around there.
My intent/purpose/interest was to try find more certain matches rather than just accepting the common theories and than just accepting we don't/can't know. If it not not sealed for later times it is good to know for edification etc rather than not knowing. I can't see why God gave the prophecy if its meaning is not known until the end or after, otherwise it is not much use. (Its similar to knowing the history in Bible is true too. If we know evidences/proofs it is true and know who/when/where it is positive.)