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Post by hakawa on Apr 1, 2022 0:52:21 GMT -8
He doesn't believe in Yeshua, but doesn't practice judaism either. He goes to the "shule", and celebrates the holidays with jewish men and their single daughters. He is looking for a wife, and I guess is trying to get a rich one. We were raised jewish, but he doesn't even practice Judaism right, forget Jesus. It is so frustrating him pretending. Its an insult to Jews and Christ.
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Post by alon on Apr 1, 2022 23:39:51 GMT -8
He doesn't believe in Yeshua, but doesn't practice judaism either. He goes to the "shule", and celebrates the holidays with jewish men and their single daughters. He is looking for a wife, and I guess is trying to get a rich one. We were raised jewish, but he doesn't even practice Judaism right, forget Jesus. It is so frustrating him pretending. Its an insult to Jews and Christ.
They however do see what I do as insulting. They believe the anti-missionaries when they say all we want is to trick Jews into accepting Yeshua and converting to Christianity. The truth of course is I left Christianity to follow a Jewish "form" of faith. I am neither Christian, nor in a religious sense Jewish. And any "conversion" gained by trickery would be invalid anyhow. In fact, a Jew coming to faith in Yeshua wouldn't have to "convert." Convert to what? They are already Jewish! I had to convert; and frankly so did any Christian who is truly saved. Any Gentile coming into faith in the God of Yisroel is adopted into Judaism; or as Rav Shaul puts it grafted onto the Hebrew rootstalk. That a Jew must be grafted into Christianity is a lie of the church fathers and totally unbiblical.
They also say I/we copy Jewish culture. To an extent this is true. I copy very little any more, having been into this long enough to have sort of found my place. But when first coming into this most of us do to a large degree copy existing Jewish customs. All I can say to that is "imitation is the most sincere form of flattery." However over time I have come to see that contemporary Judaism is not like any of the 1st cen. Judaisms, and that is what I want to get back to. I should add that I have no problem with those who do keep a more contemporary style of faith and service. The parent synagogue here does this. I also, while not necessarily practicing everything in contemporary Judaism do find a lot to admire there.
One large point of friction is that we keep Torah. That cannot be avoided, as almost everyone coming to MJ came looking for the truth in scripture. And that truth begins and ends with Torah. If Torah says do it, we do. We believe Torah was given to all men, not just the Jews. But even many Jews who've accepted Yeshua think Gentiles should only keep the Noachide laws. It's a hard bias to overcome. Just realize that to your brother, even though he is secular and not religious, it is you who is the pretender; and whenever you come at him hard about accepting Jesus, yours is the insult.
It's not about who's right; it's about who is left after the judgement. To that end a softer, or at least more "tailored" approach may be needed.
edit: In many Jewish communities they still try to "find a good match" instead of "marrying for love." Frankly, I am not inclined to think that is a bad thing. My Dad (ever the old fashioned Gentile) used to say "The woods is full of good looking women. Make sure you get a good one." A slight shift in focus, but the sentiment is essentially the same. At any rate, I'd be careful judging the motives of others. You know him best, but still ... |
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Post by hakawa on Apr 2, 2022 17:46:51 GMT -8
Actually, in the bible it says if we become like the jew, following after God in faith we are no different. I am no pretender to follow Christ. Plus, I was born into Judaism so I actually am authenticly Jewish. I don't come at him hard. You need to read my post again, because I'm not talking about the Jews who ACTUALLY study and practice Judaism. He IS a pretender and a insult to Judaism because he doesn't practice his own religion. If a jew practices what is in the  , fine. At least youre sticking to something. What he does is theater. He uses it as a party place and hook up spot. That's why he's fake. I was frustrated and wanted to vent, but you got me wrong. Plus, it seems like you're the only one on here. He doesn't believe in Yeshua, but doesn't practice judaism either. He goes to the "shule", and celebrates the holidays with jewish men and their single daughters. He is looking for a wife, and I guess is trying to get a rich one. We were raised jewish, but he doesn't even practice Judaism right, forget Jesus. It is so frustrating him pretending. Its an insult to Jews and Christ.
They however do see what I do as insulting. They believe the anti-missionaries when they say all we want is to trick Jews into accepting Yeshua and converting to Christianity. The truth of course is I left Christianity to follow a Jewish "form" of faith. I am neither Christian, nor in a religious sense Jewish. And any "conversion" gained by trickery would be invalid anyhow. In fact, a Jew coming to faith in Yeshua wouldn't have to "convert." Convert to what? They are already Jewish! I had to convert; and frankly so did any Christian who is truly saved. Any Gentile coming into faith in the God of Yisroel is adopted into Judaism; or as Rav Shaul puts it grafted onto the Hebrew rootstalk. That a Jew must be grafted into Christianity is a lie of the church fathers and totally unbiblical.
They also say I/we copy Jewish culture. To an extent this is true. I copy very little any more, having been into this long enough to have sort of found my place. But when first coming into this most of us do to a large degree copy existing Jewish customs. All I can say to that is "imitation is the most sincere form of flattery." However over time I have come to see that contemporary Judaism is not like any of the 1st cen. Judaisms, and that is what I want to get back to. I should add that I have no problem with those who do keep a more contemporary style of faith and service. The parent synagogue here does this. I also, while not necessarily practicing everything in contemporary Judaism do find a lot to admire there.
One large point of friction is that we keep . That cannot be avoided, as almost everyone coming to MJ came looking for the truth in scripture. And that truth begins and ends with . If says do it, we do. We believe was given to all men, not just the Jews. But even many Jews who've accepted Yeshua think Gentiles should only keep the Noachide laws. It's a hard bias to overcome. Just realize that to your brother, even though he is secular and not religious, it is you who is the pretender; and whenever you come at him hard about accepting Jesus, yours is the insult.
It's not about who's right; it's about who is left after the judgement. To that end a softer, or at least more "tailored" approach may be needed.
edit: In many Jewish communities they still try to "find a good match" instead of "marrying for love." Frankly, I am not inclined to think that is a bad thing. My Dad (ever the old fashioned Gentile) used to say "The woods is full of good looking women. Make sure you get a good one." A slight shift in focus, but the sentiment is essentially the same. At any rate, I'd be careful judging the motives of others. You know him best, but still ... |
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Post by hakawa on Apr 2, 2022 20:12:29 GMT -8
You didn't read my post at all. It's not about me being right, or Jesus being the truth. He, my brother goes to school for what? Socializing. Not "oh isnt it great to be a jew?" But "pass me the wine lets chill".
Him: God wants us to do 600 mitvahs, the 600 mitsvahs!
Me: do you know them all? Do you practice them?
Him: I don't try to.
Me: Then who cares about the Mitsvahs if you don't know or try to keep them?
I can respect a jew for doing jew things, but who cares if you have jewish blood if you don't do anything with it? Who cares?
And how dare you call me a pretender. You don't know my walk with Christ and you aren't God to tell me I'm a pretender. That is really rude and unchrist like.
[/font][/quote][/quote]
Just realize that to your brother, even though he is secular and not religious, it is you who is the pretender; and whenever you come at him hard about accepting Jesus, yours is the insult.
It's not about who's right; it's about who is left after the judgement. To that end a softer, or at least more "tailored" approach may be needed.
edit: In many Jewish communities they still try to "find a good match" instead of "marrying for love." Frankly, I am not inclined to think that is a bad thing. My Dad (ever the old fashioned Gentile) used to say "The woods is full of good looking women. Make sure you get a good one." A slight shift in focus, but the sentiment is essentially the same. At any rate, I'd be careful judging the motives of others. You know him best, but still ... [/font][/quote][/quote]
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Post by hakawa on Apr 2, 2022 20:26:59 GMT -8
Number one
I know what God wants from us. It's in the Bible. I DO know him (my brother) best, and Jesus gives me clear vision with the reading and faith in Christ through discernment. I see the motives, I know the psychology behind it. This isn't a log in my eye situation. Especially when he tells me his motives. He's using Judaism to hook up with women. Whether your dad thought it was cool or not, whether the Jews think it's cool or not, it's not what God wants. He doesn't want us to find the prettiest woman cause then you've got a Rachel and Leah type situation. Who God wants for us is not based on looks, that is unGodly.
Number two
Marrying for looks, and not because God sent him to her and vice versa, is marrying for fleshly lust. Your first thought is "is she pretty?" How barbaric. Your first thought should be "Is she the one that God-sent to me?" Looks fade. What if she gets into a car accident and she's ugly? What if she has kids and she blows up? What if she's just not attractive after a few years and you find another pretty lady that you see walking down the street?? Don't marry for Looks the marry for love. Marry because God sent her to you not because she has something you like.
Alon: In many Jewish communities they still try to "find a good match" instead of "marrying for love." Frankly, I am not inclined to think that is a bad thing. My Dad (ever the old fashioned Gentile) used to say "The woods is full of good looking women. Make sure you get a good one." A slight shift in focus, but the sentiment is essentially the same. At any rate, I'd be careful judging the motives of others. You know him best, but still ... [/font][/quote]
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Post by alon on Apr 3, 2022 12:11:35 GMT -8
Wow. Interesting reaction.
In an earlier post (or possibly a PM) you had said you wanted advice on witnessing to Jewish people. Based on my experience with them, especially secular Jews (which I freely admit is not extensive- but I do have some experience) and on what you told me, I gave you the best advice I could.
Apr 2, 2022 18:46:51 GMT -7 hakawa said:
Actually, in the bible it says if we become like the jew, following after God in faith we are no different. I think you misread that.
I am no pretender to follow Christ. Plus, I was born into Judaism so I actually am authenticly Jewish. I don't come at him hard. You need to read my post again, because I'm not talking about the Jews who ACTUALLY study and practice Judaism. You need to get over whatever is bothering you (you did say you came here to vent, right?) and reread my post without the bias. I specifically mentioned "secular Jews." You should know the term if you are Jewish, but just in case: they are Jews who are Jewish by blood but do not really practice Judaism religiously; or if they do only tangentially. They may keep to a Jewish community and some rituals. They probably keep the feasts (or at least Pesach). But they do not keep the mitzvoth and many are seldom seen at shul.
He IS a pretender and a insult to Judaism because he doesn't practice his own religion. OK ...
If a jew practices what is in the Torah, fine. At least youre sticking to something. What he does is theater.
He uses it as a party place and hook up spot. That's why he's fake. I was frustrated and wanted to vent, but you got me wrong. Plus, it seems like you're the only one on here. I believe I told you we are not a "chatty" forum. There are some active posters here- "active" being a relative term- and we have some lurkers. People come here for the truth, not for conversation. As for using religious activities "as a party place and hook up spot," Christian churches are rife with that. I myself was caught in compromising situations in the church building; and I was the preachers kid!
You didn't read my post at all. Yes, I did; and very carefully. Difference Is I wasn't already angry about something when I did, so my understanding was not clouded. Please reread.
It's not about me being right, or Jesus being the truth. He, my brother goes to school for what? Socializing. Not "oh isnt it great to be a jew?" But "pass me the wine lets chill".
Him: God wants us to do 600 mitvahs, the 600 mitsvahs!
Me: do you know them all? Do you practice them?
Him: I don't try to.
Me: Then who cares about the Mitsvahs if you don't know or try to keep them?
Well, that conversation sounds to me like you are coming at him hard. I might suggest an alternative:
Him: God wants us to do 600 mitvahs, the 600 mitsvahs!
You: Actually it's 613. But God never said to do them. Most of them do not even apply to you, as they were specifically for the cohen. It would be wrong for you to do those. Many of those left were for people in ha'eretz, or for women- again wrong for you to do many of those left after instructing the cohanim. So even if you decided to follow the mitzvoth, what is left for you is doable. Hard, but doable. But here's the kicker:
Those 613 mitzvoth are mostly nowhere found in Torah. They are rulings by the rabbonim, most of which are fences and not biblical commandments. Many are the result of parsing out small fragments of commandments and coming up with 2 or 3 new commandments based on that! These mitzvoth are found in the Talmud, not the Bible. Yet many in Judaism take them as being above even Torah! And that is wrong. Torah is everything. It is the base. And if it in any way changes or disagrees with Torah it is false and should be anethema to Jews, Messianics, and Christians alike. What God actually gave is is not too difficult to do at all:
Deuteronomy 30:11 KJV "This command I am giving you today is not too difficult for you, and it is not beyond your reach."
I can respect a jew for doing jew things, but who cares if you have jewish blood if you don't do anything with it? Who cares? Actually this is what I was trying to tell you. Most of Judaism cares. You left the faith, they did not. They just decided not to practice it. To them you are the traitor. I am not saying you are; I am saying they (including probably your brother) think you are.
And how dare you call me a pretender. You don't know my walk with Christ and you aren't God to tell me I'm a pretender. That is really rude and unchrist like. Read again. I said to him you are the pretender. My wife left Judaism for Christianity, and I know how many see her, react to and treat her. She is very knowledgable and practices Godliness. But if you asked if she or the un-practicing Jew who still claims his heritage is the pretender, they'd say her every time.
Number one
I know what God wants from us. It's in the Bible. I DO know him (my brother) best, and Jesus gives me clear vision with the reading and faith in Christ through discernment. I see the motives, I know the psychology behind it. This isn't a log in my eye situation. Especially when he tells me his motives. He's using Judaism to hook up with women. Whether your dad thought it was cool or not, whether the Jews think it's cool or not, it's not what God wants. He doesn't want us to find the prettiest woman cause then you've got a Rachel and Leah type situation. Who God wants for us is not based on looks, that is unGodly. I think you took my dad's comment wrong as well. He was NOT saying find the prettiest woman, he said find a GOOD WOMAN. And it was me who said "you know him (your brother) best." That was an acknowledgement you might be right about him. If you get over your snit long enough you might try my dad's quote on him next time he tells you something like that.
Number two
Marrying for looks, and not because God sent him to her and vice versa, is marrying for fleshly lust. Your first thought is "is she pretty?" How barbaric. Your first thought should be "Is she the one that God-sent to me?" Looks fade. What if she gets into a car accident and she's ugly? What if she has kids and she blows up? What if she's just not attractive after a few years and you find another pretty lady that you see walking down the street?? Don't marry for Looks the marry for love. Marry because God sent her to you not because she has something you like.
And just so you know, my dad was a hell-fire-and-brimestone preacher of the old school, and one of the best I've ever heard. He could light the pews on fire under you when he preached. If you want to talk wrong and insulting, your characterization of him is that.
Sorry you took it that way, but this is all on you; not me.
I would also suggest that if you are anti-Torah observance (not the 613 mitzvoth, but true Torah observance) and if you don't want the advice you asked for earlier, or if you just want a place to talk/vent, you may be (are) in the wrong place. You're welcome here as long as you are here to learn and are civil and follow the rules. But please ask before you go off like this. It is easy to get things wrong using only written media. That's why I asked in another thread if I had you right. I know how easy that is to make assumptions based on misunderstanding. You cleared up the post and there was no problem. Again, we are here for the truth, and that extends past scripture into our interpersonal relations.
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Post by jimmie on Apr 7, 2022 5:41:01 GMT -8
Phil 1:16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but sit shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
Assuming the word of God is going out where your brother is at, it will accomplish its' goal. It will cause him to repent or it will condemn him.
When I was a boy I was invited to a "Sunday dinner on the Grounds" at the local Baptist church. I went to fill my stomach with good food. Later I went to that same church to see a girl that I was interested in. These were my first baby steps toward God, later I had a dream, in which two hands (the hands of Jesus) poured water over me, Baptizing me. When I woke up, my bed and I were completely soaked. Yep, it turns out I had wet the bed. The following Sunday, I relayed this to the visiting hippy preacher. He said God was speaking to me and I needed to be Baptized. I was Baptized that spring as soon at the creek water was warm enough for old Pastor Moody to enter the water, without catching his death. I have since continued my walk toward God, with Him correcting my path from time to time.
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- there are 70 faces to 
