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Post by jimmie on Jan 25, 2022 10:44:35 GMT -8
I don’t think the situation was quite as adealic as you present. God tends to interject himself into the affairs of this world when things have gone wrong, not when they are homogeneous as you appear to present. I see in Acts that many Jews had none Hebrew native tongues. The sign hung on the cross with Jesus bore three different languages. I think there is a possibility that some of the New Testament was written in Greek. In Jesus’ day, there were two methods of time keeping. One was the 12 hour day (natural day) with hour 6 marking midday and one that ran from midnight to midnight with Nine(noon) marking midday. It further appears that Matthew, Mark and Luke used the 12 hour natural day (you call the Jewish Method), while John appears to use the civil day with nine (noon) marking midday. Look again:
John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he (Pilot) saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
In John, Jesus is on trial at the 6th hour, whereas Matthew, Mark, and Luke have him on the cross at the 6th hour and Mark has the crucifixion starting at the third hour.
Mark 15:25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
Clearly if John is using the natural day for time keeping he is out of sync by 3 hours. However if he is using the civil day in which Nine (noon) is midday, al that must be done is to subtract the three hours. And john will also have the crucifixion starting in the 3rd hour.
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Jonah 2
Jan 25, 2022 10:48:08 GMT -8
Post by alon on Jan 25, 2022 10:48:08 GMT -8
Good discussion. Trying to wrap my head around what might be gleaned from the different perspectives. Anyone/anything else?
jimmie, your take is thought provoking. I'll think before I reply, but your argument looks sound. I'll get back to you ...
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Jonah 2
Jan 25, 2022 17:21:51 GMT -8
Post by alon on Jan 25, 2022 17:21:51 GMT -8
I don’t think the situation was quite as adealic as you present. God tends to interject himself into the affairs of this world when things have gone wrong, not when they are homogeneous as you appear to present. I see in Acts that many Jews had none Hebrew native tongues. The sign hung on the cross with Jesus bore three different languages. I think there is a possibility that some of the New Testament was written in Greek. In Jesus’ day, there were two methods of time keeping. One was the 12 hour day (natural day) with hour 6 marking midday and one that ran from midnight to midnight with Nine(noon) marking midday. It further appears that Matthew, Mark and Luke used the 12 hour natural day (you call the Jewish Method), while John appears to use the civil day with nine (noon) marking midday. Look again: John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he (Pilot) saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! In John, Jesus is on trial at the 6th hour, whereas Matthew, Mark, and Luke have him on the cross at the 6th hour and Mark has the crucifixion starting at the third hour. Mark 15:25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him. Clearly if John is using the natural day for time keeping he is out of sync by 3 hours. However if he is using the civil day in which Nine (noon) is midday, al that must be done is to subtract the three hours. And john will also have the crucifixion starting in the 3rd hour. The 1st cen CE was anything but "ideallic." There were many different sects, and even "kinds" of Judaism, most fighting with each other over who it was keeping ha'moshiach from coming. And then, as you point out, there was the small issue of Roman occupation. So no, I don't think it was ideallic or even homogenous. Sadducees and their Roman masters were crucifying Pharisees by the hundreds and at times even thousands, and Siccarii were returning the favor one knife thrust at a time. Hardly ideal. John 19:19 Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It read, “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.” 20 Many of the Jews read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Aramaic, in Latin, and in Greek.My guess is the note was in Latin because Rome was the ruling authority, and in Aramaic because it was the "lingua franca" of the region, used in most commerce. And Greek because it was the most common language spoken throughout the Roman Empire at the time. Many who came to Jerusalem for the feasts from the diaspora had neglected to learn Hebrew, however wherever there was a synagogue there was a yeshiva; and they taught Hebrew. All the synagogue leadership would have spoke Hebrew. So would any males identified as having potential. There were typically 3 levels in a yeshiva for young people, and only the brightest got to that 3rd level. All those would have spoken Hebrew.
The writers of the NT were not, as the church typically teaches ignorant men; peasants. Yeshua only had 3 yrs with them. He would have chosen the very brightest. I know God often uses the weak or lowly to confound the leaders. But He did not choose idiots to one day evangelize and lead His assembly. The letters that became our so called "'New' Testament" would have been written to the leadership in the synagogues. They would have been passed from synagogue to synagogue, but only to the leadership. Had the average congregants been given those the writing medium of the day would not have survived even long enough to be sent to the next synagogue- and that supposes they'd be done with it in time to send it on anyhow! But, the place I currently worship believes as you that parts may have (probably were) written in Greek. In my talks with R Reuel he also believes that. So do many scholars. So to me the issue is not a hill to die on. What we have now are over 5800 manuscripts and fragments written in Greek. So that is what we must deal with, and I suppose I'll just have to get over it! John 19:14 ESV Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour [about noon]. He said to the Jews, “Behold your King!” John 19:31,42 Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. … So because of the Jewish day of Preparation, since the tomb was close at hand, they laid Jesus there.
Since the Shabbat started at sundown and all the events in vss. 31 & 42 had to take place before then had John been using the Hebrew clock there would not have been time. Therefore I must conclude you, and not the footnote in vs. 14 are correct. John appears to be using the Roman "natural day." And you are right- to say John is on the Jewish clock would be to put him out of synch with the other writers.
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