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Jonah 2
Jan 17, 2022 14:54:46 GMT -8
Post by alon on Jan 17, 2022 14:54:46 GMT -8
The following are my notes excerpted from a short teaching by Dr. Ashley E. Lyon of the Israel Bible Center:
Did Jonah Actually Die?
Did you know that Jonah experienced death? Jonah 2:2 [2:3 TNK] “I have called from my affliction to the Lord, and He answered me; from the belly of Sheol (מבטן שאול; mibeten sheol) I cried.” For most of the biblical period, the afterlife was conceived as existence in Sheol – the place of the dead. “Sheol” was the Hebrew counterpart of the Greek “Hades.” The reality of Sheol is not just a poetic device in Jonah’s prayer; as the would-be prophet cries from the midst of the fish, he is confined to the realm of the dead.
Jonah 2:5 [TNK 2:6] solidifies the prophet’s position at the brink of death quite clearly: “The waters engulfed me up to my throat (עד נפשׁ; ad nephesh), the deep surrounded me, weeds wrapped my head.” One cannot, from a logical standpoint, survive waters that have encompassed one’s head – which is where Jonah finds himself in the current predicament. Jonah is taking on water and actively drowning; he is in the process of dying.
At the turning point of his prayer, Jonah describes himself at the very point of death and alludes to his subsequent resurrection: “I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with its bars was around my forever. But you [God] have brought my life up from destruction” (2:7). While many Bible readers may see these words as only a metaphor, it is important not to downplay these references to physical death and resurrection. Jesus recalls Jonah’s experience in reference to His own real death and resurrection, saying that “just as Jonah was… in the belly of the fish, so the Son of Man will be… in the heart of the earth” (Matt 12:40). Jesus uses Jonah as a template for his own death and his return from the realm of the dead. Therefore, a more concrete reading of Jonah’s prayer can highlight God’s true power of bodily resurrection.
This is one view. Any discussion? Or are we willing to accept this as is because, after all, she has a Doctorate? The IBC is usually pretty good, however I do disagree with them frequently (not saying if this is one of those times or not ... yet).
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Post by mosheli on Jan 17, 2022 18:12:04 GMT -8
It seems difficult to be sure either way.
Jonah 1:14 like Psalm 22:31 / 22:32 (& 52:9 / 52:11 & 109:27, Isa 44:23)?
Both 'Jonah' & Gospel says he was in the belly of the fish for 3 days and nights (1:17 / 2:1), but that could perhaps just be his body. There have been some other cases of people surviving being in a fish/shark for day/days.
Do the dead speak (2:1-2 / 2:2-3, 2:4 / 2:5)? (After death do we sleep or go to "hell/heaven"?)
belly/deep of sheol "hell, realm of the dead" 2:2 / 2:3.
Jonah 2:3 / 2:4 matches Psalms 42:7 / 42:8.
nephesh "throat/soul" 2:5 / 2:6.
(last/lowest) tehom "deep/depth" 2:5 / 2:6 (Lxx).
"earth ... bars/barred" 2:6 / 2:7.
olam "forever/everlasting" 2:6 / 2:7.
(ruined) chay "life" 2:6 / 2:7 (Lxx).
corruption/pit 2:6 / 2:7 (Qbible/NIV/WEB)?
nephesh "soul/life" fainted/failing/ebbingaway 2:7 / 2:8.
Yeshuvah Yhvh "salvation (is) of Yah, salvation comes from the Lord, the Lord of (my) salvation" 2:9 / 2:10 is Yeshua in with two elements reverse order.
Maybe Jonah saying it is better for him to die in 4:8-9 might be a related parallel?
The sailors praying to their gods, throwing cargo overboard, rowing hard didn't work, only throwing Jonah overboard (1:4, 13, 15, 2:8).
Though the Ninevites did believe and fast and put on sackcloth and call on the Lord and show works turning from all their evil doings/ways (3:5-10) and its God's mercy/grace (3:9, 4:2).
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Post by jimmie on Jan 20, 2022 8:07:29 GMT -8
[quote author=" alon" “Sheol” was the Hebrew counterpart of the Greek “Hades.” [/quote] I find this statement very disturbing. The pagan Hades stands in stark contrast to Sheol. This is an example of pagan belief seeping into Christian doctrine. As to weather Jonah died: Jonah 2:7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple. Jonah's soul fainted. What is the soul? It is a combination of flesh and spirit(breath of God). Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Death is when the spirit returns to God and the flesh returns to the earth. Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. What would be the point of preparing a fish to swallow Jonah if he is going to die anyway? Just let him drown in the water and have his body wash up on shore then revive it. Matt 12: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Was Jesus three days and three nights in the grave? We know he died about the 9th hour on the day before the sabbath and was raised prior to dawn on the first day of the week. No matter how I slice or dice, I don't get three days and nights out of that. |
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Jonah 2
Jan 20, 2022 9:27:28 GMT -8
Post by mosheli on Jan 20, 2022 9:27:28 GMT -8
Matt 12: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Was Jesus three days and three nights in the grave? We know he died about the 9th hour on the day before the sabbath and was raised prior to dawn on the first day of the week. No matter how I slice or dice, I don't get three days and nights out of that. It was a "high sabbath" which means 2 sabbaths. They counted a part day as a whole day? (I also personally think a day begins at sunrise.)
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Jonah 2
Jan 20, 2022 9:47:52 GMT -8
Post by jimmie on Jan 20, 2022 9:47:52 GMT -8
What was the High sabbath. Passover was completed the day before Jesus died.
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Jonah 2
Jan 20, 2022 14:52:50 GMT -8
Post by alon on Jan 20, 2022 14:52:50 GMT -8
[quote author=" alon " “Sheol” was the Hebrew counterpart of the Greek “Hades.” I find this statement very disturbing. The pagan Hades stands in stark contrast to Sheol. This is an example of pagan belief seeping into Christian doctrine. [/quote] The Greek word gehenna, a borrowed word from Aramaic, is used in the New Testament for "hell" and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom, or gehinnom (Valley of Hinnom), I believe after the Hinnom Valley where Jerusalemites threw their trash. A fire burned there continually, and everyone crossing the bridge in or out of the city would have seen this. Sadly it is also where many corpses were thrown at times, especially when the Hebrews sinned and sacrificed humans (often their children) to pagan gods. This would have seemed a picture of Hell to many. Sheol simply means "the place of the dead," or "the place of departed souls." The NT Grk equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to "the place of the dead." Now if you want pagan belief infiltration, look at the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Sheol:Luke 16:22-24,26 English Standard Version The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's [bosom]. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ ... between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’Most Christians look at this and think Abraham and Lazarus are in Heaven. After all, it says "he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off." Looking up; far off- must be Heaven, right?Genesis 22:13a English Standard Version And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns.
Was that ram in heaven? He had to look up after all. And by Christo-pagan logic, Heaven is really Abrahams' bosom, which is behind him so probably his butt. So if Abraham sits down a lot of good people will prematurely suffer the second death! Now, that's just gotta be wrong!
Alternatively, and much more sensibly/less facetiously Sheol is a real place with real terrain. It is not heaven. We know part of that terrain- there is a great gulf separating good folks from the bad ones. And we can surmise the bad folks are in a bad part of Sheol, while the good ones are much better off. They at least have water, and the bad ones apparently do not.
Paganism does creep in, often subtly. The enemy plays on our ignorance, our willingness to just believe what we are told, and our misunderstanding of what we read. So it is good we question things here. But I am pretty sure the Hebrew concept of sheol was similar to that of many ancient cultures in the region. The biggest difference as I recall was the Hebrew ideas of resurrection and judgement. Many pagans had many ideas about what happened in sheol/hades/whatever their term was, and what its purpose was. Only the Hebrews said everyone would be resurrected and judged; some "saved," others doomed. Only the Hebrews contrasted eternal life with the second death. Then of course there were the Sadducees. I think Abraham sat on them ... |
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Post by jimmie on Jan 20, 2022 15:25:30 GMT -8
In the story, there are three people who are they?
Abraham is easy.
Lazarus is the Greek from of Eliezer by chance who was Abraham's servant from Damascus.
The rich man is a little harder. We know he had five brothers. Any one come to mind. How about Judah.
Jesus is using historical figures to tell the current state of things.
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Post by mosheli on Jan 20, 2022 23:20:49 GMT -8
What was the High sabbath. Passover was completed the day before Jesus died.
Matthew 28 "after then (the) sabbaths"
John 19:31 "Therefore the Jews, because it was the Preparation Day, so that the bodies wouldn't remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a special one / was for a high day that sabbath), asked of Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."
Other verses say "three days", "third day", "after three days" (eg Matt 27).
I haven't had the time etc to be able to do a proper indepth study, but from previous partial studies it is abit difficult (esp in English versions) to tell exactly when the passover was. Some of the chapters say it was the day of preparation.
Nisan 10th passover lamb selected Nisan 12th fast of first born? Nisan 13th Haman's plot Nisan 14th passover sacrifice; fast of firstborn?
Nisan 15th passover seder Nisan 16th first fruits Nisan 17th Ark came to rest
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Jonah 2
Jan 21, 2022 7:01:05 GMT -8
Post by alon on Jan 21, 2022 7:01:05 GMT -8
Part of the problem is we are used to thinking of a day as a 24 hr period, especially one starting at midnight or at dawn. Thinking of a day as starting at sundown is foreign to us. Pesach starts at sundown the 14th of Nissan, which is the start of the 15th.
Another problem is cultural differences. I've heard, but cannot confirm that any part of a day was counted as a day. This complicates counting the days actually in the tomb. Likewise I've heard that there were so many sheep slaughtered each Pesach that they couldn't do them all in a day, so it may have spread over at least the 14th and 15th. I don't know, but these at least show some of the difficulties in pinning down specific dates and rituals to ancient cultures. I'm not a scholar, so at my (our) end of things, we hear so much like this the waters of time and history get really clouded. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand the best we can; just that we should be careful, and not get too locked into one interpretation.
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Post by jimmie on Jan 21, 2022 9:11:22 GMT -8
It is fairly easy to see how one would think that a part of a day/night would count. Just look at Saul performing the offering instead of waiting for Samuel who arrive very late in the day. Though this is plausible, it is not necessary to fulfil Matt 12:40 “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” We have been taught that “the heart of the earth” equates to “the grave”. If you do a word search for “heart of” you will find that the heart is the seat of emotions and actions. And Satan deceives the whole world or turns its’ heart away from God. Thus I believe Jesus spends three days and nights in the heart of the earth; meaning the control of Satan. The time begins with Judas' betrayal of Jesus by a kiss. From then till his resurrection are three full day and night periods as follows.
Part of 1 night: Jesus is betrayed during the night and spends the remainder of the night in trail by the Sanhedrin.
1st day: Jesus trail before Pilot and Herod and is hanged on the cross until the 6th Hour when darkness covers the land.
2nd Night: Jesus in on the cross during darkness between 6th and 9th Hours.
2nd day: Jesus dies and is buried during the light between the 9th and 12th hours.
3rd night: Sabbath
3rd day: Sabbath
Partial night completed: Jesus is resurrected during the night as he has already left the tomb before sunrise on the first day of the week.
There we have 3 full day and night cycles.
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Post by mosheli on Jan 21, 2022 14:11:04 GMT -8
The ninth hour in Roman time was 12 pm (Midday) or 3 pm, still called noon/nones now.
Cockcrow was about 3 am.
Personally I don't hold the day begins at sunset. Jonah says 3 days and 3 nights. So a day is only 12 hours. And the day(s) put before the night(s) in that and other scriptures verses. But I can't say more as I wouldn't want to risk offending forum rules, plus I might be be wrong (if the bible says so).
If I have time I might try do a big study of the relevant scriptures chapters (creation, passover, crucifixion, etc). But I might not have time etc.
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Jonah 2
Jan 21, 2022 18:42:47 GMT -8
Post by alon on Jan 21, 2022 18:42:47 GMT -8
It is fairly easy to see how one would think that a part of a day/night would count. Just look at Saul performing the offering instead of waiting for Samuel who arrive very late in the day. Though this is plausible, it is not necessary to fulfil Matt 12:40 “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” We have been taught that “the heart of the earth” equates to “the grave”. If you do a word search for “heart of” you will find that the heart is the seat of emotions and actions. And Satan deceives the whole world or turns its’ heart away from God. Thus I believe Jesus spends three days and nights in the heart of the earth; meaning the control of Satan. The time begins with Judas' betrayal of Jesus by a kiss. From then till his resurrection are three full day and night periods as follows. Part of 1 night: Jesus is betrayed during the night and spends the remainder of the night in trail by the Sanhedrin. 1st day: Jesus trail before Pilot and Herod and is hanged on the cross until the 6th Hour when darkness covers the land. 2nd Night: Jesus in on the cross during darkness between 6th and 9th Hours. 2nd day: Jesus dies and is buried during the light between the 9th and 12th hours. 3rd night: Sabbath 3rd day: Sabbath Partial night completed: Jesus is resurrected during the night as he has already left the tomb before sunrise on the first day of the week. There we have 3 full day and night cycles.
This in mind, they would have wanted to remove Yeshua's body and have it buried before dark:Mark 15:42-46 And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Pilate was surprised to hear that he should have already died. And summoning the centurion, he asked him whether he was already dead. And when he learned from the centurion that he was dead, he granted the corpse to Joseph. And Joseph bought a linen shroud, and taking him down, wrapped him in the linen shroud and laid him in a tomb that had been cut out of the rock. And he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb.
So He did not spend any hours of darkness on the cross. You are right that the trial was held at night. They had to keep this from the masses as all Israel was in Jerusalem at the time, all knew Yeshua was the most likely candidate to be Messiah, and had they known about His arrest there would have been a riot. Instead, they awoke to the news their Messiah had been crucified. Looking at a map of 1st cen Jerusalem, Yeshua would have stayed at Bethany while in the city- Just over the hill and in another jurisdictions where they could not have arrested Him. He entered and left through the Kidron Valley, then up the Mount of Olives. So when He stoped to pray, knowing full well He had just been betrayed, he was literally a few steps from freedom; yet He stayed. They would have taken Him back across the valley and through the Golden Gate of the Temple complex. From the opposite side of the compoud another bridge was built especially for Sadducaical leadership and dignitaries to use to get over the slums and into the Temple. He'd have been taken to what we'd call a well patrolled gated community where the whole drama of the trial took place. So it was easily accomplished in one night and without anyone the wiser until morning when the spectacle of their already accomplished coup became evident. So one night for the trial. He hung there for a day and was taken down and burried. Pilate, probably still fearing riots and knowing the Jews would not stand for this man to hang there during even a moment of the Shabbat, especially Pesach, allowed Him to be removed and buried. Now what day of the week that was, how the days and nights are measured by the biblical writers is open to interpretation, as is the original point about whether Jonah actually died.
I guess the question now is what parallels can we draw from Yonah and Yeshua, how might those inform our thinking, and can any lessons be learned from all interpretations that, while possibly not agreeing with each other might still inform us within the bounds of good biblical exegesis. |
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Jonah 2
Jan 21, 2022 18:46:23 GMT -8
Post by alon on Jan 21, 2022 18:46:23 GMT -8
The ninth hour in Roman time was 12 pm (Midday) or 3 pm, still called noon/nones now. Cockcrow was about 3 am. Personally I don't hold the day begins at sunset. Jonah says 3 days and 3 nights. So a day is only 12 hours. And the day(s) put before the night(s) in that and other scriptures verses. But I can't say more as I wouldn't want to risk offending forum rules, plus I might be be wrong (if the bible says so). If I have time I might try do a big study of the relevant scriptures chapters (creation, passover, crucifixion, etc). But I might not have time etc. |
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Jonah 2
Jan 24, 2022 13:56:05 GMT -8
Post by jimmie on Jan 24, 2022 13:56:05 GMT -8
Actually both are correct as Roman had a natural day consisting of 12 hours that ran from sunrise to sunset and a civil day that ran from midnight to midnight. It is clear that Matthew used the natural day of 12 hours as seen in Matt 20:1-12. Mark also uses the natural day stating the crucifixion begun the third hour (Mark 15:25) and Jesus died the 9th hour (Mark 15:34). So the dark period from the 6th to the 9th hour equates to Noon to 3:00 pm our time. According to Matt 27:46, Jesus was on the cross during those three hours of darkness, thus becoming the accursed in our stead.
John seems to be the out layer.
John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
If John is using the natural day then he is out of synch with the other gospels by three hours. If he is using the civil day in which Noon is the 9th hour we can take three hours off Johns reckoning in civil time to get the 3rd hour for the start of the execution as recorded in natural time by Mark.
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Jonah 2
Jan 24, 2022 21:38:46 GMT -8
Post by alon on Jan 24, 2022 21:38:46 GMT -8
Actually both are correct as Roman had a natural day consisting of 12 hours that ran from sunrise to sunset and a civil day that ran from midnight to midnight. It is clear that Matthew used the natural day of 12 hours as seen in Matt 20:1-12. Mark also uses the natural day stating the crucifixion begun the third hour (Mark 15:25) and Jesus died the 9th hour (Mark 15:34). So the dark period from the 6th to the 9th hour equates to Noon to 3:00 pm our time. According to Matt 27:46, Jesus was on the cross during those three hours of darkness, thus becoming the accursed in our stead. John seems to be the out layer. John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! If John is using the natural day then he is out of synch with the other gospels by three hours. If he is using the civil day in which Noon is the 9th hour we can take three hours off Johns reckoning in civil time to get the 3rd hour for the start of the execution as recorded in natural time by Mark.
If they were hired the 11th hour and only worked 1 hour, then the author is using the Hebrew method of a day being divided into 12 equal "hours." Mark 15:25 And it was the third hour [That is, 9 a.m.] when they crucified him. ... 33 And when the sixth hour[That is, noon] had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. [That is, 3 p.m.] 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” ... 37 And Jesus uttered a loud cry and breathed his last. ... 42 And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. ... 45 And when he [Pilate] learned from the centurion that he was dead, he granted the corpse to Joseph. 46 And Joseph bought a linen shroud, and taking him down, wrapped him in the linen shroud and laid him in a tomb that had been cut out of the rock. And he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb.
The footnotes here [in brackets] say the times were: vs.25- 3rd hr- 9am; vs.33- 6th hr- noon; vs 34- 9th hr- 3pm. This looks like it is using the Jewish method as well. And it makes sense. At the 9th hr they had time to ask for and get the body and place it in the tomb by sundown, the 12th hr. In vs. 33, darkness can occur in daylight hours for many reasons, however this likely would have been a supernatural darkness, both physically and spiritually. Your point about Yeshua becoming a curse for us by hanging there in darkness also makes sense here (I hadn't seen this connection before, but sounds right; thanks).
This is my take on it anyhow. The writers of the NT were Jews; they thought like Jews and would have written like the educated Jews they were. Yeshua would not have wasted His time on ignorant peasants like the church tradition tells us. Owners of fishing boats then, for example were businessmen, at least the equivalent of owners of fishing trawlers today. As men smart enough to do this they would have been singled out by the rabbis to go on to the third level of yeshiva. They would have been very fluent in Hebrew, their preferred tongue (all people prefer their own tongue until living long enough in another culture to be assimilated. One only has to look at their wars with Greece and later Rome to see just how "assimilated" most of the Jews were at the time.
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- there are 70 faces to 
