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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on May 5, 2004 11:09:04 GMT -8
To find out what "  Observant" means we must first look at the word " ". As you probably already know, this word word can mean "instruction", "teaching", "Law". It is the target for which we are to aim. For all practical purposes the word " " refers to the first five books of The Scriptures. You are right in regards to some of the commandments involving the Temple because it is not currently standing. Although, YHVH will rebuild His Physical Temple as the scriptures attest, and Mashiach's coming did not do away even a jot, or a tittle of our Heavenly Father's (Matthew 5:16-19). Mashiach's priesthood plays a different role than that of the Earthly priesthood. And, a reading of the book of Ezekiel clearly shows that YHVH's Temple will be rebuilt, and the sacrificial system will continue. In fact, the Levitical priesthood is an everlasting covenant.... " Behold, the days come, saith YHVH (the LORD), that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, YHVH our righteousness.
For thus saith YHVH; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
And the word of YHVH the came unto Jeremiah, saying,
Thus saith YHVH; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers." Jeremiah 13:14-21 Notice in the above passage the Messianic reference; "Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David" in connection with the Levitical priesthood which will not cease to operate. Also, note that unless you can break YHVH's covenant with day and night...the Levitical priesthood will not cease to operate in the coming Kingdom. If you wish to continue conversation of this subject we can start a new thread in the appropriate area. In regards to being observant, and which commandments we are to keep...this would include all of the commandments that pertain to YHVH's people without The Temple standing. Prophets like Daniel continued in their observance in the absence of The Temple...we are to do likewise. Our Heavenly Father has much instruction in regards to life other than the 10 commandments (although these are the foundation). There is the Moedim (His holy calendar), kosher eating, cleanliness laws, tzitzit for men etc....There are commandments that pertain to women, children, mothers, fathers, leaders, etc. Rabbinical Judaism has calculated 613 Mitzvot (commandments) in The . When you seperate the commandments in regards to the Temple, priesthood, men, women, children, animals, etc....any one person does not keep anything close to the 613. Although, by the same standards that the 613 were determined over 1000 commandments were found in the Brit Hadashah (New Covenant writings). Of course these commandments all stem from the same source...The . This is one of reasons it is important for us all to read, and discuss the reading each week, as this will cover all of the various instructions given by our Heavenly Father. Shalom sister, Reuel |
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Post by Rick on Apr 3, 2005 18:29:00 GMT -8
My question regards the following scriptures: Deu 4:15 Take therefore good heed to yourselves; for you saw no manner of form on the day that the LORD spoke to you in Chorev out of the midst of the fire. Deu 4:16 Lest you corrupt yourselves, and make yourself an engraved image in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, Deu 4:17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the sky, Deu 4:18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth; Deu 4:19 and lest you lift up your eyes to the sky, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, even all the army of the sky, you are drawn away and worship them, and serve them, which the LORD your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole sky. So, as I read this today I saw it from a different perspective, (as in other than the way it was presented, or glossed over, by my protestant indoctrination). It could be said that Crusifix', fish symbols, star of david, icons, artistic depictions of Yeshua, etc. are "Graven or engraved images" of the things mentioned in the above passages. I'd be interested to hear anyone elses thoughts on this. I felt quite convicted reading this, more so than any other time I've read these verses.  |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Apr 5, 2005 0:17:15 GMT -8
Shalom rej1s,
I believe the heart of the second commandment as found in Sh’mot (Exodus) 20:4-5 is not to make images of G’d in order to bow down and worship such an image…<br>
"You shall not make unto yourself any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth You shall not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I YHVH your G’d am a jealous G’d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me"
I respect the view of those whom disagree with me on this. But, I would also add that if the simple prohibition was against images in general, than The Temple was in major violation of such an ordinance. Moshe himself would also be in violation in regards to the serpent on the pole that was crafted. Although, I do understand that there is a tendency for such objects to be worshipped in violation of the commandment found in Sh’mot (Exodus) 20:4-5. In this instance, such objects are to be removed. If the image is simply to inspire and remind one of Adonai, I personally do not see sin in it. But, knowing that many in Judaism have sensitivities to this, I would do everything possible to not cause my brother to stumble in regards to coming to Yeshua The Messiah.
Shalom aleychem b'Yeshua HaMashiach
(Peace be upon you in Yeshua The Messiah),
Reuel
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Post by Mark on Apr 5, 2005 3:43:57 GMT -8
I'd like to back up my friend, Reuel. We get really sticky with our underestanding of the idea of an image versus the idea of a symbol. A symbol (or an icon) is a representation of a greater idea or concept. If I place a "fish" on the back bumper of my car, I am making a declarative statement about myself that is greater than the fish itself. It is not an object of my affection; but a representation of a greater idea.
I once had a fellow come to me very concerned about this passage. He was a sculptor by trade. While his profession could be used to exalt himself or to set up images to replace God, it can also be used to worship Him.
I went through a period, myself, when I removed every "image" from my home- no pictures on the walls, even book jackets were turned inside out.
I really think we find the answer, the intent, in Psalm 20:7.
Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.
(Psa 20:7 ESV)
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Post by Mark on Apr 5, 2005 3:55:02 GMT -8
A problem that we have in looking at the thickness of is that we forget its simplicity, its utter practicality, its perfect truth and trustworthiness. There are not six hundred thirteen different laws, there is one Law- to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, your soul, your mind and your strength. 1st John 4:20 tells us that loving our neighbor as ourself is a direct outcome of obedience to that one Law. Within that one Law, He has given us ten sub-groups by which we can understand how to love one another and love God. Under those ten sub-groups there are six hundred thirteen practical applications of those ideas. Don't think of the Law as a list of dos and don'ts. That's a Hellenistic approach. The Law is a unity. The thing is, to love my neighbor as myself, I can't get my hands around that. It's too big for me, too broad of a concept. But, if I see my enemy struggling under his burden, Oh... I'm supposed to help him. That I can understand. The Law simply tells us how to love in with in the context of God's definition of love, not ours. My suggestion is to read the Law- not a list of the mitzvot as it's been catalogued and catagorized by man. Read God's Word to you. Let Him speak to you as you meditate on His Word. You'll find that it is a joy amd fellowship, not a task or a burden. |
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Post by Rick on Apr 5, 2005 4:19:38 GMT -8
Moshe was commanded by G-d to "lift up" the serpent We are in agreement here, on the one hand I feel my heart is right, but on the other I don't want any hindrance or misperception. I agree with your veiw Mark, I just took a look around me after reading the passage and had to question my Focus, search my heart, and I came to the same conclusion. I was then curious as to others views, to be sure I was correct in my conclusion. I must say though one thing that does make me uncomfortable, is when I see a cross with a figure representing Yeshua on it. I feel that 'Crosses the line'  We do have a couple of bare crosses in our home, I veiw them as a statment of faith and a reminder of the great cost of salvation. I have never been a "legalist" but I am very much a "Literalist". Yeshua's teaching was to show us that was about the condition of the heart, "Truth in the inward parts". As I mentioned above I feel my heart is right, but the conviction I felt when rereading the passage was, Is this a direct command from G-d concerning All images? The scriptures are full of examples where Yisra'el disobeyed G-d. My personal aproach to scripture is 1; it is ALL the Word of G-d, 2; you can not pick and choose, If it is not ALL truth how can one believe ANY of the Word? In a nutshell I was concerned about my own interpretation, I want to "Be a workman approved, rightly dividing the Word". Thank you Both for you input, it has helped. I am going to begin a word study of the verse's in Hebrew to see if there might be a nugget of clarity there. |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Apr 5, 2005 23:06:03 GMT -8
I pray that more would be like you.
Yes, but the images I am referring to are ones He commanded.
Shalom achi,
Reuel
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Post by Mark on Apr 6, 2005 3:52:16 GMT -8
It's difficult for me to defend or condemn the crucifix. I am a "words" person; but I also know that many respond and relate more with images. I never went to see "The Passion of Christ." For me, the Book is better than the movie. Yet, I know people who say that the experience was transforming.
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Post by Rick on Apr 18, 2005 18:46:59 GMT -8
I believe we are to keep all that is written, except those regarding the temple as noted previously. Joh 14:21 “He who possesses My commands and guards them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and manifest Myself to him.” Although I feel we are to keep all that are commanded as completly as possible, except for the prescribed sacrifice. As it is written, Mat 5:17-19 “Do not think that I came to destroy the or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete. “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the till all be done. “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of works of are under the curse, for it has been written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all that has been written in the book of the , to do them.”<br> Rom 6:14 "For sin shall not rule over you, for you are not under the law but under favour." Because Yah'shua fufilled ALL sacrifice, for all time, for all who believe on him. Gal 3:11-13 And that no one is declared right by before Elohim is clear, for “The righteous shall live by belief.” And the is not of belief, but “The man who does them shall live by them.” Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the , having become a curse for us – for it has been written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs upon a tree.”<br> Gal 4:4-5 But when the completion of the time came, Elohim sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under , to redeem those who were under , in order to receive the adoption as sons. Rom 6:10 "For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to Elohim." Rom 8:3 For the being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, Elohim, having His own Son in the likeness of flesh of sin, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh Please correct me if you find fault with my line of reasoning. This now brings me to my question. Does anyone here have a complete list of the verses where specific commands are written? I've only have run across about half, and I do my best to be consistant in my studies. It could be "I can't see the forest for the trees" |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Apr 18, 2005 20:35:11 GMT -8
There currently is a thread handeling this issue as the scripture does not let us off that easy (just read the book of Yechzekial (Ezek.). In regards to the list of the 613, I would post it here but it is lengthy. Here is a link to the 613: www.jewfaq.org/613.htmShalom chaver, Reuel |
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Post by Mark on Apr 19, 2005 3:29:26 GMT -8
Hi Rick,
We don't refrain the commands of sacrifice because Yeshua has fulfilled that portion of the Law. That's actually dispensational thinking and doctrine. In Acts 21:24, it was recommended to Paul to "be at charges" with men who were under a vow. The Law concerning the vow involved animal sacrifice (Leviticus 22:21).
Hebrews 10:4 tells us clearly that the blood of bulls and of goats could never wash away sin, not even before Yeshua offered Himself as the one sacrifice for all sin.
Yeshua paid the price for all sin and has taken the burden of guilt completely away from all of us. Indeed, we are not under the Law but under grace. Yet, we obey because of His love, not because of His wrath.
We don't offer sacrifices for the same reason that the Jews don't offer sacrifices. It would be sin for us to do so. Deuteronomy 12:13-14 commands us not to offer sacrifices just anywhwere. The only place that is acceptable to the YHWH is the place which He chooses. We know that place to be His holy mountain, Mount Zion in Jerusalem. (Zechariah 2:10-12).
We do offer sacrifices to Adonai. In fact, we are not exempt from the tithe (though it is grossly misapplied by the church today). That is found in Deuteronomy 14:24-29.
There are Laws that are inappropriate for us to follow because we don't live in the land. For instance, we are not to drive out and destroy all of the Amalekites. Again, offering blood sacrifices would be violating YHWH's command. There are three feasts that can only be held in Jerusalem: The Feast of Passover, the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Tabernacles. Our celebrations commemorate these festivals, remember, teach and honor them; but lawful observance would require pilgrimage to Israel three times a year. There is allowance for living too far away; but if we were in the neighborhood, it would be sin for us not to go up to Jerusalem on these days.
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Post by Rick on Apr 19, 2005 16:54:21 GMT -8
Thank you Mark and Reuel for your responses. This is the reason Yah'shua took our sin on himself, He made the atonement that "the blood of bulls and goats" could not. The sacrifices before Yah'shua were a picture of or pointed to the coming "Acceptable" sacrifice. I have come to this conclusion from my own study, and not from "doctrines of men". It is simply where I've come to from scripture, primarily the Gospels and epistles. I could not classify myself as dispensationalist, I have to many points of contention with the bulk of what I've read. Total agreement here. To clarify my point I feel that, for instance a women after her time of separation need not make a sin offering, (assuming the temple was currently standing and in use), because her sin has already been atoned for, (by Yah'shua). And likewise all the various commands that call for a "sin" offering. Now as for First fruits, well being, etc. these are not for sin so they would therefore still be "in force" and remain a requirement to fufill the commandments. (again assuming there was an active temple) Does this clarify my position? Again I am aware of this and in agreement. I hope you can see the thin line I'm trying to point out. Yah'shua pointed out that was the condition of the heart "truth in the inward parts" We obey what is feasable to, out of love and a desire to please G-d, as you stated. I hope I have not muddied the water in an attempt to clarify my point. Reuel thank you for the link Rick |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Apr 19, 2005 17:38:12 GMT -8
Completely. I used to agree with your position, until I conducted further study. Thus my reason for changing my view is that Yeshua said that all of remains in effect until everything has been accomplished. |
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Post by Rick on Apr 19, 2005 18:43:31 GMT -8
Notzari Y'hudi, Forgive my naivety. I am tryng my best to throw off my Protestant indoctrination. I live in a lake front cabin 20 miles from anywhere, in an area where I'm surounded by staunch conservative "Christian" congregations. I've only come to the point I am at, through my own study. I no longer buy what was being fed to me from the "Mainstream" denominations. They left to many questions unanswered. Thus I began to seek the answers on my own, my primary source being the scriptures. My search for truth has lead me here, and G-d has blessed me with meeting a wonderful group of people. As another member has said, "I'm on a steep learning curve". I thank you all for for your priceless insight and rebuke/refutation where it is warranted. I hope and pray I have not conveyed a tone that was taken to be anything other than respectful. I appoligize if I've been taken otherwise.
Jer 20:9 Whenever I said, “Let me not mention Him, nor speak in His Name again,” it was in my heart like a burning fire shut up in my bones. And I became weary of holding it back, and was helpless.
Lam 1:13 “From above He has sent fire into my bones, And it overpowered them; He has spread a net for my feet and turned me back; He has laid me waste and faint all the day.
As for passion....................Guilty.
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Observant" ?
