|
|
Post by mystic on Jun 15, 2021 4:40:29 GMT -8
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jun 15, 2021 10:43:34 GMT -8
Chabad are Ultra Orthodox, so you will find their answers will come from the perspective of Talmud being superior to scripture as well as from Jewish mysticism. They tend to read far more into scripture than is there and thus their views can be contradictory, For example:Contextually Leviticus 26:1 is a prohibition of idolatry and has nothing to do with kneeling or prostrating yourself before God:Leviticus 26:1 (ESV) “You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the Lord your God.
The proscription here is against idol worship, and it could be extrapolated that we should not set up our own worship to be like the pagans do. That would be like bringing "strange fire" before God. Nadav and Abihu were immediately killed for doing that. However the verse says nothing about prostrating oneself. Nor does it speak of placing prayer rugs on a stone floor (which by the way is a common pagan practice itself). As to the kneeling bench in church- those churches with kneeling benches that fold down from the pews are typically either Catholic or close to being so themselves. The Catholics and many of these denominations do practice some form of idolatry. Further the bench resembles a kneeling stone in both form and function. I wouldn't go so far as to say using an aid to aleviate strain on your knees while praying is wrong. But using that board in the presence of idols is very wrong. In fact, just being there and worshiping at all is wrong. But in a pagan church expect pagan ways. My advice, whatever church you are in, look around. If you see even one idol, leave. Even a small crucifix would count as an idol. In your private practice, bowing, kneeling, and even prostrating yourself before God are all ok:Psalm 95:6 “Come, let us worship and bow down, Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker.”
To "bow down" is usually thought to mean prostrating oneself. While there are several references to this practice in scripture, none of them actually use any form of the word "prostration." But we are dealing with a translation of ancient texts, and so must look to their practices, how they viewed them and spoke of them. Prostration was common in the Near-east when going before a king or as a sign of homage or respect for authority. So prostrating oneself before the Ultimate Authority is not a stretch.
|
|
|
|
Post by mystic on Jun 16, 2021 3:29:09 GMT -8
All Great info Dan, thanks! Yes that article seems contradictory to me which is why I was confused.
As you know I am always striving to do whatever I can to get a closer relationship to the Almighty, I guess it's the Holy Spirit leading me to start kneeling/prostrating now.
Yes, in the Catholic Church I used to attend there are statues everywhere of Christ and different Saints. As I had stated once a while back one thing bothered me more than anything else is that nowhere in that Church the word "God" can be seen.
Since it is implied or recommenced in Scripture that we should have Holy assembly and I can't find a suitable church or synagogue close by this is always a struggle for me so it's either I stay at home or I attend one of the places close by and deal with the issues mentioned.
I am not understanding why having a Crucifix is considered idol worship if it used as a reminder of Christ dying for us?
BTW, any word on the Chavurat online service resuming soon?
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jun 16, 2021 14:21:41 GMT -8
I am not understanding why having a Crucifix is considered idol worship if it used as a reminder of Christ dying for us? BTW, any word on the Chavurat online service resuming soon?
A crucifix has the image of a man (Yeshua) on it. That makes it an idol. We are told to worship God/Yeshua, not His likeness. Also Catholicism focuses on the suffering of the Christ. We remember that, certainly. But we focus more on why, what it accomplished, and the fact He is a conqueror over sin, death, and ha'satan. Worshiping the crucifix is worshiping the low point of His earthly existence; His death, His defeat.But the main reason is we are told not to worship a graven image.
I think they have had some technical difficulties with the streaming. I haven't heard about any plans to restart streaming the services. |
|
|
|
Post by mystic on Jun 17, 2021 4:12:29 GMT -8
Got it, thanks!
Bottom line Dan, if YOU had a choice between attending a church/Synagogue which is not totally in line with Scripture or staying home which would you choose please? Not saying I will do whatever your answer to this should be, simply asking your take on this situation. I see opposing scriptures on this issue, one recommending fellowshipping and the other saying not to follow the traditions of men so which one is more important?
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jun 17, 2021 6:23:09 GMT -8
Got it, thanks! Bottom line Dan, if YOU had a choice between attending a church/Synagogue which is not totally in line with Scripture or staying home which would you choose please? Not saying I will do whatever your answer to this should be, simply asking your take on this situation. I see opposing scriptures on this issue, one recommending fellowshipping and the other saying not to follow the traditions of men so which one is more important?
As for their doctrines of men, when I do attend there, I know this will be the case when I cross their threshold. So I use it as an exercise in discernment. But the place I go to has no idols- no cross, no statues, no reader-board, etc. They do put up a tree for Christmas, so I typically do not go there in December. I do not do communion with them, nor do I go to their alter and allow someone to lay hands on me. I just fellowship with friends and believers.
In your case, you are in New York City. There is bound to be a place within riding a bus or subway or driving where you can go that at least preaches the word from their doctrinal standpoint, undiluted by popular cultural thinking. One without idols. My opinion (and that is all this is) is meeting with believers is the higher mitzvah, but not absolutely. For me, the caveat to that is I find a place that teaches the Word (with the expected doctrinal flaws), does not compromise on morals or ethics, has no idols present in the sanctuary nor on the premises, and is ok with me sharing the occasional truth.
And btw, a Roman Catholic church fails on every one of those requirements. They may be impressive with their trappings, fixtures, and idols; comfortable in their rituals and have dominion in their authority. But all those are deadly when it comes to our worship. Contrary to popular belief, it does matter where and how you worship God. Yes, if forced to be there you could worship God in spite of your circumstances, and He would honor that. But we are not forced to be anywhere, so kneeling before an idol and calling it worshiping God is an abomination. |
|
|
|
Post by mystic on Jun 18, 2021 5:00:23 GMT -8
Thanks for addressing this. In the Catholic Church here I see people bowing in front of the Statues of Christ and Mary and praying to it. The general congregation kneeling and praying is done in the benches seating area so not kneeling in front of a Statue.
Problem with meeting with believers is everyone has their own and different beliefs so sometimes I have to listen to them even though I can't agree with what they are saying and not wanting to start any arguments I just keep quiet. I think when the Disciples started the Church they did not foresee that there will be groups of people each with different beliefs maybe?
I think it will be same situation in any church close by and of course I do not expect to be welcomed in any Synagogue here. If I had a Church it would be open to all people who simply want to come and worship God. That is something I would like to do some day but I would need a Preacher who believes as I do if Ministering should be involved and that might be impossible to find. What I would like keeping it simple I think is to have a place to pray together with others and have like scripture studies and discussions.
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jun 18, 2021 13:12:32 GMT -8
Thanks for addressing this. In the Catholic Church here I see people bowing in front of the Statues of Christ and Mary and praying to it. The general congregation kneeling and praying is done in the benches seating area so not kneeling in front of a Statue. If the idol is present in the room, then they are kneeling before it. If they are praying to any entity other than Yeshua, they are practicing idolatry even if there were no idol present. And if you are there of your own volition, you are complicit in their idolatry. My opinion. Maybe others can weigh in here.
Problem with meeting with believers is everyone has their own and different beliefs so sometimes I have to listen to them even though I can't agree with what they are saying and not wanting to start any arguments I just keep quiet. I think when the Disciples started the Church they did not foresee that there will be groups of people each with different beliefs maybe? That would be a problem with the Catholics as well.
Since Judaism of the time was so diverse, with different sects and even different Judaisms, they might have thought about it. There were also different groups of Jews trying to proselytize entire congregations of new believers, and some were starting to already preach heresies based on this new movement. Just like Messianism today has attracted so many crazy cults, as Protestant Christianity did before us. And by the late 1st century the Ebionim had already split away from mainstream Notsarim. So they knew. Rav Shaul spent the better part of his ministry fighting against the new legalists.
I think it will be same situation in any church close by and of course I do not expect to be welcomed in any Synagogue here. If I had a Church it would be open to all people who simply want to come and worship God. That is something I would like to do some day but I would need a Preacher who believes as I do if Ministering should be involved and that might be impossible to find. What I would like keeping it simple I think is to have a place to pray together with others and have like scripture studies and discussions. Yes, the ideal would be to have a study group that was interested in the truth- not necessarily my truth, or your truth; but that would dig until they found God's truth. But we seldom just stumble into the "ideal." We start by finding a place to worship, then hope that will slowly grow out of it.
Starting churches is something you are called to do, not just want to do. |
|
|
|
Post by mystic on Jun 19, 2021 9:28:47 GMT -8
Thanks for addressing this. In the Catholic Church here I see people bowing in front of the Statues of Christ and Mary and praying to it. The general congregation kneeling and praying is done in the benches seating area so not kneeling in front of a Statue. If the idol is present in the room, then they are kneeling before it. If they are praying to any entity other than Yeshua, they are practicing idolatry even if there were no idol present. And if you are there of your own volition, you are complicit in their idolatry. My opinion. Maybe others can weigh in here.
I think it will be same situation in any church close by and of course I do not expect to be welcomed in any Synagogue here. If I had a Church it would be open to all people who simply want to come and worship God. That is something I would like to do some day but I would need a Preacher who believes as I do if Ministering should be involved and that might be impossible to find. What I would like keeping it simple I think is to have a place to pray together with others and have like scripture studies and discussions. Yes, the ideal would be to have a study group that was interested in the truth- not necessarily my truth, or your truth; but that would dig until they found God's truth. But we seldom just stumble into the "ideal." We start by finding a place to worship, then hope that will slowly grow out of it.
Starting churches is something you are called to do, not just want to do. For clarity, if it's a statue only of Jesus then this is ok? I am not understanding the last sentence. Are you saying that if my desire is to start some type of church on my own that this is a calling?? |
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jun 19, 2021 13:16:00 GMT -8
For clarity, if it's a statue only of Jesus then this is ok? No. As I said earlier, ANY statue is wrong, even a statue of Yeshua. We worship and pray to God, not His statue! Again, from our list of commandments:Exodus 20:4-5 (ESV) “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God,” This actually has 2 parts- do not make graven images, and do not worship graven images. And even a statue of Yeshua is a graven image.
I am not understanding the last sentence. Are you saying that if my desire is to start some type of church on my own that this is a calling?? It could be. And the calling may be to start just one, or to start many; or even just to start a study group. That would be between you and God. But if it is a calling, He will make it happen. For your part you will likely have to step out in faith. So make sure it is a calling and not just a want. Only you can answer that. |
|
|
|
Post by mystic on Nov 20, 2021 9:00:47 GMT -8
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Nov 20, 2021 12:12:58 GMT -8
I'd have a problem with the replica of the Ark of the Covenant, even though I don't think there is a specific biblical prohibition against it. Ex 30:32-33 prohibits making or using anointing oil, and Talmud in Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 141:8 does forbid building a replica in the dimensions of the heichal (sanctuary of the Holy Temple), a table following the dimensions of the shulchan (golden table); a candelabra in the form of the Temple menorah. So there is precident for not making replicas of the things of the Mishkan and/or Temple; but again the Ark is not specifically mentioned.It is however mentioned in the care taken when in transport and not in its usua place in the Mishkan: Numbers 4:4-15 (ESV) 4 This is the service of the sons of Kohath in the tent of meeting: the most holy things. 5 When the camp is to set out, Aaron and his sons shall go in and take down the veil of the screen and cover the ark of the testimony with it. 6 Then they shall put on it a covering of goatskin and spread on top of that a cloth all of blue, and shall put in its poles. 7 And over the table of the bread of the Presence they shall spread a cloth of blue and put on it the plates, the dishes for incense, the bowls, and the flagons for the drink offering; the regular showbread also shall be on it. 8 Then they shall spread over them a cloth of scarlet and cover the same with a covering of goatskin, and shall put in its poles. 9 And they shall take a cloth of blue and cover the lampstand for the light, with its lamps, its tongs, its trays, and all the vessels for oil with which it is supplied. 10 And they shall put it with all its utensils in a covering of goatskin and put it on the carrying frame. 11 And over the golden altar they shall spread a cloth of blue and cover it with a covering of goatskin, and shall put in its poles. 12 And they shall take all the vessels of the service that are used in the sanctuary and put them in a cloth of blue and cover them with a covering of goatskin and put them on the carrying frame. 13 And they shall take away the ashes from the altar and spread a purple cloth over it. 14 And they shall put on it all the utensils of the altar, which are used for the service there, the fire pans, the forks, the shovels, and the basins, all the utensils of the altar; and they shall spread on it a covering of goatskin, and shall put in its poles. 15 And when Aaron and his sons have finished covering the sanctuary and all the furnishings of the sanctuary, as the camp sets out, after that the sons of Kohath shall come to carry these, but they must not touch the holy things, lest they die. These are the things of the tent of meeting that the sons of Kohath are to carry.Even a replica being on display in a home could violate he spirit if not the law itself here. It would depend on our interpretation. Obviously mine is that it wold be a violation, but as I've said many times I can not set halacha as I am not a rabbi. I'm not even a biblical scholar. So I freely admit I could be wrong.
Displaying the Ten Commandments as a reminder and not an object of worship is probably ok. Just understand that is a very abbreviated format. I'd suggest having a Bible in front of it open to either Ex 20:2-17 or Deu 5:6-21. That is where you'll find the full biblical text/list. Pew Bibles are fairly inexpensive. I'd suggest either the NKJV, the ESV, or the NASB for being faithful to the original text. Avoid any Catholic versions as they changed the commandments, dropping the prohibition against idolatry (go figure ...). I wouldn't use the KJV either as it lacks accuracy. But the language is poetic, so you decide.
|
|
|
|
Post by mystic on Nov 21, 2021 3:39:01 GMT -8
|
|
- there are 70 faces to 
