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Post by jimmie on Jun 2, 2021 5:22:19 GMT -8
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
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Post by alon on Jun 2, 2021 7:22:39 GMT -8
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
There has been a lot of speculation on this (as I'm sure you are aware).
* Trinitarians and Binarians say God was talking among the members of the Godhead.
* At least some Jewish tradition holds that God was speaking to a divine council of subordinate deities.
* Some just say He was talking with His "angels."
* I hold with those who say God was speaking in the plurality of the Godhead; in other words like royalty saying "us" or "we" when speaking for their kingdom.
Note that in vs. 27 scripture again uses the singular form when referring to God in our translations. Yet in the Hebrew it consistently says אֱלֹהִים 'ĕlôhı̂ym, a plural form, or "Gods." We are told the Lord our God is One (Deu 6:4), but even there the term "One" is אֶחָד 'echâd which can imply a composite unity, agreement or accord. It can also mean one in the sense of fullness. The Bible is often vague or unclear, which is meant to inspire questions such as you just asked. Questions with open ended answers meant to make us think and consider possibilities.
Why would God need or want a council, or agreement of subordinate beings- beings He created? Then again why allow Moshe to change His mind on more than one occasion? And his wife (Tzipporah) as well. Why bargain with Abraham over the fate of Sodom? Since all the other biblical "names" of God are really His attributes, probably His referring to Himself in the plural is also an attribute: either the fullness of His office, a plurality in the Godhead, or like with Moshe and Avraham He is a God who allows participation by His creation in some decisions. So while I go with the "fullness of His office," I won't absolutely rule out the other interpretations. Just like I firmly believe He is One, I won't absolutely say the Trinitarians are wrong. I'll say they are almost certainly wrong, but that still leaves a bit of room for doubt.
Now my Greek-trained mind wants an absolute answer. So this open ended thing is taking some getting used to. But that's not only how the Bible is written, but the Hebrew language with every word having multiple meanings and many connotations lends itself to this type of thought. So the best I can tell you is, in my opinion it is probably the the 4th option above. But we may be able to learn something from the other possibilities as well. For instance, God does have 3 primary manifestations through which He interacts with us and our physical world. And yes, He does sometimes allow others in on the decision process. And those Hebrews did have a different thought process, which does drive me nuts trying to figure things out at times. |
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Post by jimmie on Jun 2, 2021 8:35:49 GMT -8
My I offer a fifth possibility? Did anything directly contribute to the creation of man other than God or the Godhead?
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
So the earth contributed "dust" and God contributed "breath of life." Our flesh bears the image or likeness of the earth and our spirit bears the image or likeness of God. We bare the image of all that contributed to our creation. Do you ever find your self speaking to or with the items you are working on. I speak to my computer al the time. I speak to my garden tools, wood working tools, mechanic tool etc. Does God speak things into existence? Gen 1:2,6,9,11,14,20,&24 "And God said,"
I think God was speaking to his creation when he said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness".
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Post by alon on Jun 2, 2021 8:42:01 GMT -8
... I speak to my computer al the time. ...
That is certainly a possibility, and one I had not considered before. Thanks. I'd put that at least equal to the plurality option. And as you point out, there is a lot to consider and learn from this view as well.
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Post by jimmie on Jun 22, 2021 14:07:25 GMT -8
Round 2:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
"the man is become as one of us" Who is the "us"?
"to know good and evil:" How does knowing good and evil make man become like God or who ever the "us" is.
"and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" Wait1 Didn't God say man would die if he ate of the tree of good and evil, but if man could eat of the "tree of life" he could live for ever. Wouldn't that make the tree of life more powerful than God's word.
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Post by alon on Jun 22, 2021 16:35:05 GMT -8
Round 2: Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: "the man is become as one of us" Who is the "us"? "to know good and evil:" How does knowing good and evil make man become like God or who ever the "us" is. "and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" Wait1 Didn't God say man would die if he ate of the tree of good and evil, but if man could eat of the "tree of life" he could live for ever. Wouldn't that make the tree of life more powerful than God's word.
The sin of Adam and Chava, more than mere disobedience was they wanted to be like God and determine right and wrong for themselves. If you are simply obeying God and living in the Garden, where all your wants and needs are met and you can even physically walk with your Creator, what need have you to even think of “good and evil,” “right and wrong?” Just do what He tells you and enjoy paradise. ‘But there’s this one tree, and man, I’d just like to taste that fruit, at least once. So if I can determine for myself what is “good,” I don’t need God to tell me what to do.’
Today we call it “Moral Relativism.” There is no right or wrong, only what my li’ll ole heart desires, ‘cause don’cha know, that’s where God wrote His laws for us today! You-betcha’! But don’t you dare judge me! (That’s important to a relativist: they sin as they want, but if we think they are sinning then we have committed the unpardonable sin of “judging” them.)
Adam and Chavah wanted to be like God and determine what is right and wrong for themselves. Their problem was He IS the judge! He also makes the laws. His house, His rules, get out … |
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Post by jimmie on Jun 23, 2021 14:10:24 GMT -8
In chapter 3, God uses the singular personal pronoun “I” in verses 11, 15, 16, and 17. Why go with a plural pronoun in verse 22? As shown below the LORD answers the serpent’s charges in reverse order. It appears to me that he uses the plural form to refer to himself because the serpent said “ye shall be as gods.
A) 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
B) 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
B) 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
A) and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
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Post by alon on Jun 23, 2021 15:51:46 GMT -8
In chapter 3, God uses the singular personal pronoun “I” in verses 11, 15, 16, and 17. Why go with a plural pronoun in verse 22? As shown below the LORD answers the serpent’s charges in reverse order. It appears to me that he uses the plural form to refer to himself because the serpent said “ye shall be as gods. A) 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: B) 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. B) 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: A) and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
A
B
b
a
As your example here. Or sometimes:
A
B
C
b
a
In each case the small letter answers or relates to its' capital counterpart, and the important point is in the middle, farthest right letter(s). In this case, it is in the knowledge of good and evil. Everything here hinges on that issue. The chiasm "makes a point."
Some can be quite long as well. Regardless, the chiasm is a very powerful and meaningful way for God to answer the serpent. So for the reason I gave He is able to answer the serpent, as well as Adam and Chavah (and by extension us) in the same language the serpent used to convince them they'd be ok in defying God and sating their own desires.
Some translations say verse 5 said "you shall be as God." I don't think so. I believe the serpent said "you shall be as gods" (as your translation says). God can refer to Himself in the plural, but I doubt the serpent meant that when he used the term אֱלֹהִים elohim. אֱלֹהִים can mean anything from God to a minor court bureaucrat. I believe (and this is just my opinion) he was saying they would be like minor gods, able to make up their own minds what is right. The serpent said they could be Gods, but their Creator said "I Am אֱלֹהִים God, the fullness of creation. You may now know right from wrong, but I still say what is right and what is wrong." |
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Post by alon on Jun 24, 2021 11:17:36 GMT -8
As to the Tree of Life being greater than God’s Word, it was spoken into existence by God’s Word (Yeshua/Jesus), and so derives the power of life from His Word. Also, God had the will and the means to deny man access to that tree, which He did. So He is still greater than His creation in every respect.
(Sorry, I missed that part in my earlier reply.)
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Post by alon on Jun 25, 2021 9:41:14 GMT -8
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Post by alon on Jul 30, 2021 21:05:58 GMT -8
My I offer a fifth possibility? Did anything directly contribute to the creation of man other than God or the Godhead? Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. So the earth contributed "dust" and God contributed "breath of life." Our flesh bears the image or likeness of the earth and our spirit bears the image or likeness of God. We bare the image of all that contributed to our creation. Do you ever find your self speaking to or with the items you are working on. I speak to my computer al the time. I speak to my garden tools, wood working tools, mechanic tool etc. Does God speak things into existence? Gen 1:2,6,9,11,14,20,&24 "And God said," I think God was speaking to his creation when he said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness".
- So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.--- Footnotes- Genesis 1:26 The Hebrew word for man (adam) is the generic term for mankind and becomes the proper name Adam 26 וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֔ים נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה אָדָ֛ם בְּצַלְמֵ֖נוּ כִּדְמוּתֵ֑נוּ וְיִרְדּוּ֩ בִדְגַ֨ת הַיָּ֜ם וּבְע֣וֹף הַשָּׁמַ֗יִם וּבַבְּהֵמָה֙ וּבְכָל־הָאָ֔רֶץ וּבְכָל־הָרֶ֖מֶשׂ הָֽרֹמֵ֥שׂ עַל־הָאָֽרֶץ׃ 27 וַיִּבְרָ֨א אֱלֹהִ֤ים׀ אֶת־הָֽאָדָם֙ בְּצַלְמ֔וֹ בְּצֶ֥לֶם אֱלֹהִ֖ים בָּרָ֣א אֹת֑וֹ זָכָ֥ר וּנְקֵבָ֖ה בָּרָ֥א אֹתָֽם׃
--- אָדָ֛ם בְּצַלְמֵ֖נוּ adam b'tsalmeinu. אָדָ֛ם adam is man, and בְּצַלְמֵ֖נוּ b'tsalmeinu is "in our image (בְּ b' prefix means "in," נוּ nu suffix is plural, "our." The root צַלְמֵ֖ tselem is a likeness, an image. צַלְמֵ֖ tselem is related to צַלְ tsel, shadow. And a shadow is an imperfect image confered upon the adamah, or ground, from which Adam the man came.
We tend to think linearly, and so do not get the full meaning of Genesis 1. It's creation; it's about the beginning, right? Sorta. We have to remember who this was being given to. Who was the original audience? Answer- the Hebrews at Sinai. They had been slaves in Egypt for 400 years. That's well over 10 generations. Their whole mindset was pagan Egyptian as much or more than set apart to their God. In their world Pharaoh was made in the image of God, and they were made in the image of the mud pits they crawled out of when making bricks for his building projects. Here God is telling them everyone comes from the same earthly father, who was made in the image of his Heavenly Father. All came from the dust of the earth and were miraculously transformed into the image of the One True God Himself! He is also saying the Egyptians may make many images of earthly materials, but they cannot breath life into them. The Hebrew God made many likenesses of Himself, and breathed life into all of them. That's why idols are proscribed. We are to be the living image(s) of the Living God. Dead idols tie us to the world and destroy our witness. But we were given breath to speak, to praise God and to tell others. We can choose the comforts of the best title and position we can get, but if it comes at the cost of our walk with God, the price is too high, even if we could be a Pharaoh. And even if you could be Pharaoh, you'd still just be dirt. Think of the effect this message must have had on the Hebrews as it sunk in. They were being transformed into a people; God's people. And this was still just early days!
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- there are 70 faces to 
