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Post by mystic on Apr 2, 2021 3:48:27 GMT -8
It is my personal belief that people can pray all day long and do as much good to others every day and live in a church but if they don't obey all of God's commandments they will not be chosen, am I right or wrong please? Whatever the answer is, are there scriptures to back it up?
Also this scripture I am not clear on:
However, what's in bold seems to suggest that if you break a commandment that you will still be included in heaven??
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Post by alon on Apr 2, 2021 11:08:28 GMT -8
It is my personal belief that people can pray all day long and do as much good to others every day and live in a church but if they don't obey all of God's commandments they will not be chosen, am I right or wrong please? Whatever the answer is, are there scriptures to back it up? Also this scripture I am not clear on: However, what's in bold seems to suggest that if you break a commandment that you will still be included in heaven?? All the scriptures I can think of that tell us us to keep the commandments give temporal benefits for keeping them and consequences for disobedience. But that is how ancient Hebrews thought was in terms of immediate consequences, good or bad. “Salvation” was always from a situation or a foe. Or from the wrath of God. The closest we can get to outright condemnation in the TNK is when it says a person will be “cut off.” And there are several scriptures that say this. The closest for your purposes here I can think of is:Numbers 15:30-31 But the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the Lord, and that person shall be cut off from among his people. Because he has despised the word of the Lord and has broken his commandment, that person shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be on him.” “High hand” is translated several ways. It is a Hebraism whose meaning is not clear. But my thinking is the Hebrews thought pretty graphically. Think of a raised fist, or someone raising a hand to pass judgement or make decrees. If these are done against the Lord then that person was to be “cut off.” Those who adamantly oppose the Lord, His people or His commandments might fall into this category. There are however good reasons not to follow particular commandments. Some I can think of:* ignorance- some just don’t know* mistake- I once got confused on the calendar and ate leavened bread a day early. It was an honest mistake, of which I immediately repented when I saw my error* commandments conflict- what about someone “injured in his stones” who cannot keep Pesach? Daniel and his companions, for instance. They could not have kept Pesach as commanded (though I’m sure they did something). And none of the exiles could have gone up to Jerusalem for Pesach in any case. But who would say Daniel who went into the lions den, or his compatriots who went into the furnace were not saved?* circumstances- living with unbelievers, cleaning the house of leaven for Pesach is impossible, as they still eat and bring it back into the house. Or when David and his men were starving and they ate the Showbread. I’ve said many times, and I’ll say it again: “I do not know where the line is demarcating salvation and eternal condemnation. All I can say for sure is that the farther you are from Torah, the more danger you are in.” That concerns obedience; obviously if you refuse to accept Yeshua you are also condemned. But you are asking specifically about keeping the commandments.The verse you quote does give me hope that some of my Christian friends and family will also make it, though they will suffer loss in the Olam Ha’Ba. I guess for me a good rule of thumb is this:Proverbs 2:22 (ESV) but the wicked will be cut off from the land, and the treacherous will be rooted out of it. Sorry I can't give a clear, definitive answer. But this is one place I do not presume to absolutely know the mind of God. I don't believe He holds us accountable for those things over which we have no control. And possibly even some choices are not what Paul would call "sins unto death." But as I said, the farther one strays from Torah, the more they are flirting with the fire. And one who has been shown the truth and rejects it is in far greater danger than one who was led astray by religious authorities. Perhaps this is why the answer is a bit vague. As with Christians (and be clear this is conjecture on my part), perhaps there is a sliding scale. Depending on their religious training (brainwashing) and how much of the truth they were shown (by us and/or the Ruach), and the circumstances of their refusal to obey, it is possible that line between salvation and damnation moves. I don't know. I just always reiterate, “I do not know where the line is demarcating salvation and eternal condemnation. All I can say for sure is that the farther you are from Torah, the more danger you are in.” That to me IS a constant truth, and so is what I pass on to you and others.
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Post by mystic on Apr 3, 2021 4:13:57 GMT -8
All great insights, thanks. Sorry I should have mentioned that I am seeking scriptures from the NT which I can show to Christians who believe there will be no punishment for their sins since Christ paid the price for us and we are under grace. I just found these here though which I think will be more than enough but there are some scriptures listed which might have a grey area I think so some will interpret them to suit their agenda? www.openbible.info/topics/no_sin_will_enter_heavenwww.openbible.info/topics/who_wont_make_it_to_heavenbut I think this one should make it crystal clear? John 3:36 ESV / 7 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
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