613 Mitzvoth- idolatry

[mystic]

Do Messianics observe the 613 Commandments? If yes, what's the situation with "missionaries" in items 37 and 41 please? Or reading in context, am I correct this not referring to missionaries who do God's work?

www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Commandments-Mitzvot.htm

 Moderator note: post moved from our list of commandments to its own thread. Dan   

[alon]

Mar 15, 2021 4:34:06 GMT -8 mystic said:

Do Messianics observe the 613 Commandments? If yes, what's the situation with "missionaries" in items 37 and 41 please? Or reading in context, am I correct this not referring to missionaries who do God's work?

www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Commandments-Mitzvot.htm

The list of 613 Mitzvoth is an interpretation of Torah commandments by Rabbinical Judaism, and as such we do not think ourselves bound by it. So no, we do not keep the "613 Mitzvoth." That said, we do keep Torah, just not their interpretation of it. However the list they made is still worth studying for their insights. 

The items you ask about are from that list, found not in the Bible (Jewish or Christian), but in the Talmud. Items 36-41 deal with missionizing others to idol worship, so when it says you are "not to love, cease hating, save, or defend the missionary," or that you should incriminate him, it is talking about missionaries who preach idolatry.

36. Not to missionize an individual to idol worship—Deuteronomy 13:12
37. Not to love the missionary—Deuteronomy 13:9
38. Not to cease hating the missionary—Deuteronomy 13:9
39. Not to save the missionary—Deuteronomy 13:9
40. Not to say anything in his defense—Deuteronomy 13:9
41. Not to refrain from incriminating him—Deuteronomy 13:9

We of course oppose idolatry as well, however when they say this they mean us. They believe Christians to be idolaters, and they refuse to even consider thinking of us separate from Christianity; therefore they consider us as "missionaries" trying to teach them and  their children idolatry.

Oddly, one of their chief complaints against us is we will not accept their Rabbinical list of commandments, yet to do so would here and elsewhere be to condemn ourselves. So while my love and respect for the Jewish people is absolute, I do find some of their ideas strangely incongruent. And there are many problems with that list of 613 Mitzvoth; problems that have been covered in several ohter threads. You can do a search if interested. Suffice to say here that yes, we do keep Torah, but no, we do not keep their list.     

[mystic]

I had thought the 613 was given by Moses, not so? If that is accurate then I am not understanding why it would be "Rabbinical"?

[alon]

Mar 16, 2021 3:50:59 GMT -8 mystic said:

I had thought the 613 was given by Moses, not so? If that is accurate then I am not understanding why it would be "Rabbinical"?

God gave Moses the mandate to write Torah. Which he did (probably with a lot of help). However nowhere in Torah are the 613 mitzvoth enumerated. For that we must go to Talmud, the Mishna, Tractate Makkot 23b. Even there it just says there are 613 mitzvoth, but they are not listed. That was the work of many Jewish biblical scholars over time. It is their interpretation of the meaning of the commandments in Torah. All this from way, way after Moses lived. How much of this scholarly effort was done in the Rabbinical period and how much from before, I don't know. But reading the"list" (I have a Jewish booklet on the mitzvoth with explanations) if it existed in the time of Yeshua I can see why He got after His own sect for placing burdens on the faithful that even the leadership did not bear. There are fences on fences, and often more than once several mitzvoth are parsed out of a single part of a commandment!

But the main point is, this list was not given to Moses either in Torah or the Oral Torah, nor did he nor anyone working with him ever make such a list.

[mystic]

Any idea why these did not apply to King Solomon?

593. The king must not have too many wives—Deuteronomy 17:17

594. The king must not have too many horses—Deuteronomy 17:16

595. The king must not have too much silver and gold—Deuteronomy 17:17

[alon]

Mar 20, 2021 5:15:34 GMT -8 mystic said:

Any idea why these did not apply to King Solomon?
593. The king must not have too many wives—Deuteronomy 17:17
594. The king must not have too many horses—Deuteronomy 17:16
595. The king must not have too much silver and gold—Deuteronomy 17:17

They did apply. Kings sin.