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Post by mystic on Mar 1, 2021 4:46:44 GMT -8
Jesus said to his disciples:
“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
“Stop judging and you will not be judged.
Stop condemning and you will not be condemned.
Forgive and you will be forgiven.
Give and gifts will be given to you;
a good measure, packed together, shaken down, and overflowing,
will be poured into your lap.
For the measure with which you measure
will in return be measured out to you.”
Then you have:
James 5:19-20 (ESV)
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Matthew 18:15-17
If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
There is one relative/tenant in my building who is always in our apartment and she is the Queen of Debauchery. I try to avoid her not to get caught up or risk engaging in it myself. Am I condemning or Judging?
I lost a very close friend when I had no choice but to point out her sins after she was encouraging her brother to go down the same path as her which would have had him live a life of sin, am I condemning or judging her?
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Post by alon on Mar 1, 2021 8:02:17 GMT -8
Yeshua was saying use good judgement, make right judgements. He was not saying don't judge right from wrong or to not tell someone they are doing wrong in order to lead them to righteousness. This is a problem with translations- the English almost never conveys the true meaning or intent of what was said in the original Hebrew. And with the NT we are dealing with at least one intermediate translation when it was put into Greek.
Even in Greek the term κρίνω krinō carries more the connotation of damning, condemning, or punishing. That is not our place. Only God or a duly appointed court of law can judge in that respect. However we are commanded to judge others:
Leviticus 19:15 ‘You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly.
Deuteronomy 1:16 “Then I charged your judges at that time, saying, ‘Hear the cases between your fellow countrymen, and judge righteously between a man and his fellow countryman, or the alien who is with him.
Deuteronomy 16:18 “You shall appoint for yourself judges and officers in all your towns which the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment.
Matthew 7:2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
Luke 12:57 “And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?
John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
An example of being told not to make judgements for the purpose of condemning:
James 4:11-12 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
So your judging that this woman is doing wrong is the right thing to do, as long as it's for the purpose of trying to witness or to keep her from leading others astray. Even telling her she is condemning herself to an eternity separated from God and all that is good is fine. Just don't condemn her to Hell yourself. That is a responsibility we as humans wouldn't want anyhow.
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Post by mystic on Mar 2, 2021 5:12:26 GMT -8
This is a problem with translations- the English almost never conveys the true meaning or intent of what was said in the original Hebrew. And with the NT we are dealing with at least one intermediate translation when it was put into Greek.
So your judging that this woman is doing wrong is the right thing to do, as long as it's for the purpose of trying to witness or to keep her from leading others astray. Even telling her she is condemning herself to an eternity separated from God and all that is good is fine. Just don't condemn her to Hell yourself. That is a responsibility we as humans wouldn't want anyhow. That is what I have always thought that there are some issues with the translation. Thanks a million for those scriptures Dan, this makes a HUGE difference for me now as the guilt was always bothering me!I still have this ongoing issue with the relative/tenant as it's unavoidable and don't know how to deal with it. Only way is avoidance whenever she is here, nothing else seems to work. |
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Post by mystic on Mar 6, 2021 6:29:15 GMT -8
I have been searching and searching the net yet I cannot find a definitive scripture which shows we are to avoid people who engage in debaucherous talk, is there such a scripture?
Reason for this, on Wednesday everyone here celebrated my Aunt's birthday and my mom always has an issue with me not participating and telling whoever it is "happy birthday". She and everyone else have said they don't like that I don't mingle with them on any occasion and when they just group together to chat but their chatting always has some sort of foolish talk in between whether it be gossiping, talking about someone, politics, e.t.c.
I am looking for some scripture which I can show to them, any ideas please?
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Post by alon on Mar 6, 2021 10:49:29 GMT -8
I have been searching and searching the net yet I cannot find a definitive scripture which shows we are to avoid people who engage in debaucherous talk, is there such a scripture? Reason for this, on Wednesday everyone here celebrated my Aunt's birthday and my mom always has an issue with me not participating and telling whoever it is "happy birthday". She and everyone else have said they don't like that I don't mingle with them on any occasion and when they just group together to chat but their chatting always has some sort of foolish talk in between whether it be gossiping, talking about someone, politics, e.t.c. I am looking for some scripture which I can show to them, any ideas please?
vain babblings- G2757 κενοφωνία kenophōnia From a presumed compound of G2756 and G5456; empty sounding, that is, fruitless discussion: - vain.There is nothing wrong with polite conversation; I don't think that is what it's saying. But when it turns to ungodliness it becomes a problem. And people who are habitually ungodly in their manner or speech should be avoided- shunned. |
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Post by mystic on Mar 6, 2021 13:20:23 GMT -8
Amazing how you find these scriptures, great one which I will keep handy in my phone and thanks! BTW, I just found this one on foolish talk but which one is the original verse please? biblehub.com/ephesians/5-4.htm |
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Post by alon on Mar 6, 2021 18:02:51 GMT -8
Amazing how you find these scriptures, great one which I will keep handy in my phone and thanks! BTW, I just found this one on foolish talk but which one is the original verse please? biblehub.com/ephesians/5-4.htm
The original was in Hebrew and is lost to us. Next best would be Greek translations, of which there are many and they do not aways agree. But good/honest translators pick the one that best agrees with Torah and work from that. Translators however are people, and their own bias and past teaching will creep in. The ones I like are the NASB, ESV, NKJV, and some of the literal translations. I absolutely will not however use the NIV.
Dan |
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Post by mystic on Aug 22, 2021 3:35:10 GMT -8
So your judging that this woman is doing wrong is the right thing to do, as long as it's for the purpose of trying to witness or to keep her from leading others astray. Even telling her she is condemning herself to an eternity separated from God and all that is good is fine. Just don't condemn her to Hell yourself. That is a responsibility we as humans wouldn't want anyhow. So to my utter surprise she contacted me again a couple of days ago and while normally I would have been happy to rekindle our friendship this time it was exactly the opposite. Reason being, she showed no remorse at all for breaking the commandments and this is a complete turn-off for me. She said I was very harsh in my delivery and I apologized only for that and I know you've said Dan that we need to soften our approach but Christ did the exact opposite and blasted the Scribes and Pharisees when he had had enough so I too simply had gotten tired of trying to get this friend to confess her sins hence my reaction. For this reason I honestly do not think I had any reason to apologize but....... Main issue for me now is I am quite turned off by her still constant quoting the scriptures while she is living in sin. To add to that recently I have been feeling disgusted about even looking at the Christian Pastors on TV too and my mind is turning away from Christians. I don't know if this is righteous judgement or not but it's been consuming my thoughts. Christ said Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you,but do not follow their example. I can't agree with this because this is what the friend says she is doing, following what she is being taught by the Pastors. What do you make of that statement by Christ please? Again, to clarify, for me I have no animosity towards the average Christian who doesn't obey the scriptures/commandments, what I have issue with is only with those Christians who minister to people while they are not obeying the commandments themselves, like this friend. |
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Post by alon on Aug 22, 2021 8:19:13 GMT -8
So to my utter surprise she contacted me again a couple of days ago and while normally I would have been happy to rekindle our friendship this time it was exactly the opposite. Reason being, she showed no remorse at all for breaking the commandments and this is a complete turn-off for me. She said I was very harsh in my delivery and I apologized only for that and I know you've said Dan that we need to soften our approach but Christ did the exact opposite and blasted the Scribes and Pharisees when he had had enough so I too simply had gotten tired of trying to get this friend to confess her sins hence my reaction. For this reason I honestly do not think I had any reason to apologize but.......
On the other hand, many New Yorkers I’ve known can be downright rude, so I’m guessing there is more going on here. Many times when you act righteously that alone convicts and offends the unrighteous. My advice is remember “A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.” (Prov 15:1) Your purpose should be not to destroy your witness, yet stand firm in your convictions. Easier said than done (trust me, I know). But it’s what we are called to do.
As we become more immersed in the Word and the Ruach these things bother us more and more. We realize how the church fathers have lied to countless generations, teaching us to misinterpret and manipulate scripture to say what we want. The next part of the passage you quote says “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.” The more things (people) change, the more they remain the same.
So your reaction to Christianity is a natural consequence of growing in the truth. You simply cannot stand to be continually lied to. Not calling all Christians liars- most think they are telling you the truth. But some (like your relative here) intentionally lie, both to you and to themselves. If they will listen, show them where they are wrong. If not, walk away and wait for a time they hopefully will be ready to listen.Matthew 23:1-11 (ESV)
Seven Woes to the Scribes and Pharisees
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi [my teacher, or my master] by others. 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.This is part of a long discourse condemning the hypocrisy of the Pharisaic leadership. The “Seat of Moses” was, and still is in most synagogues the place where the Rabbi would sit when he taught Torah. While these leaders did not practice what they preached, they were still very learned men with regards to Torah, hence the instruction to do what they said when teaching Torah. However even then they had so many extrabiblical “laws” with fences on their fences that it was extremely difficult to keep all of Torah and their now burdensome Oral Torah as well.
Yeshua was saying to keep Torah as given through Moshe, but not these commandments of men which were just too burdensome. Only God/Yeshua who gave us His Torah is our Rabbi/teacher. Only He is our Father/Supreme Authority. Obviously Yeshua is speaking allegorically here, as we still have earthly fathers as well as teachers. But the idea He is trying to get across is when God’s instructions (Torah) and man’s (even the rabbi’s) instructions do not agree, do what God said. And when man’s instructions become a burden, serving no purpose other than to control your every action then don’t worry that you cannot keep them. He’s not preaching rebellion, just common sense.
That is a good thing. I used to hold animosity towards Christianity in general. I hate being lied to. But then I came to realize they too were lied to, and I used to teach the same things as they do now. nd really being angry at them for the sins of the church fathers was foolish and counterproductive.
When she comes at you with her doctrines based on pulling scripture out of context, misinterpreting it, then building her theology on the error, simply counter with context and good theology. She will probably accuse you of being mean (or some other silliness) and leave in a huff. But that is a good thing. It shows you got through, if only a little bit. Hopefully it will bear fruit. If not though at least she left; probably to tell others how mean you are. But this too is good, as when they confront you over it you can then witness to them as well. After that it is between them and God. |
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Post by jimmie on Aug 23, 2021 8:35:12 GMT -8
Again, to clarify, for me I have no animosity towards the average Christian who doesn't obey the scriptures/commandments, what I have issue with is only with those Christians who minister to people while they are not obeying the commandments themselves, like this friend. Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. |
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Post by alon on Aug 23, 2021 10:13:28 GMT -8
Actually, that was mystic that said that. I simply broke up his quote but put the parts into separate quote boxes to make my replies more clear. Not sure if you thought I said it or were just replying to the statement ...
Part of the same discourse, Yeshua was talking about the same "blind guides" as before. They would not listen, so why waste time and breath trying to make them? As Messianics we typically only witness when the other party wants to hear what we are saying, eschewing the 'beat them with your Bible' approach to witnessing. This doesn't however mean we just write off every Christian. We plant seeds, and if they bear fruit we stand ready to talk with them. Yeshua didn't refuse to talk to sinners and tax collectors, nor even Nicodemus, himself a teacher of Israel. And he was resistive to the word:
John 3:10-12 (ESV) Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
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Post by jimmie on Aug 25, 2021 8:51:11 GMT -8
Will I thought I fixed that. Guess I did the same thing second time around.
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- there are 70 faces to 
