Actual Commandments: Counting the Omer and Shavuot

[alon]

Counting the Omer & Shavuot

Leviticus 23:15 (ESV) “You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering. We are to count the Omer 7 full weeks (49 days) from 16 Nissan.

Leviticus 23: (ESV) You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath. Then you shall present a grain offering of new grain to the Lord. …  And you shall make a proclamation on the same day. You shall hold a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work. It is a statute forever in all your dwelling places throughout your generations. The 50th day is Shavuot, a Shabbat, and a holy convocation.

Deuteronomy 16:9-10 (ESV) “You shall count seven weeks. Begin to count the seven weeks from the time the sickle is first put to the standing grain. Then you shall keep the Feast of Weeks to the Lord your God with the tribute of a freewill offering from your hand, which you shall give as the Lord your God blesses you.” Lev 23:15-16 says to count from the day after the Shabbat (the 15th is a Shabbat, and is apparently what is being spoken of here). This would be around the time when the sickle was first put to the grain, so the 16th which is Firstfruits would start the count.

Deuteronomy 16:11 (ESV) And you shall rejoice before the Lord your God, you and your son and your daughter, your male servant and your female servant, the Levite who is within your towns, the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow who are among you, at the place that the Lord your God will choose, to make his name dwell there. This is a time of rejoicing and sharing for everyone; and from the sounds of it for Gentile friends as well. It is also one of the Shalosh Regalim. While there is no Temple to go to in Jerusalem, we still should gather to celebrate.

[mystic]

I am seeing this coming Sunday evening [May 16] as the beginning of Shauvot and ending on Tuesday evening so is Sunday evening to Monday evening another Shabbat ?

Also, what is expected on Sunday-Monday, an offering, if yes how or towards what please?

[alon]

Shavuot to most of Judaism today is 6 Sivan- this year that’s Sunday evening the 16th of May to Monday evening the 17th. Just one day. And yes, that day is a full Shabbat. The grain offering would have been brought to the Temple, however that obviously is not the case today. If one has an assembly to worship with, you should follow their halacha as to offerings. If not, just give as the Ruach leads you.

I also use the traditional Jewish days of the Omer count and keep 6 Sivan as Shavuot. The only ones I am aware of (so there may be more) who do it different today are the Kararites. However in the 1st cen CE there were 3 main methods of counting the Omer, the differences being when to start the count. And this comes fom how they interpretd scripture:

Leviticus 23:15a (ESV) “You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, …”

* Sadducees interpreted “the day after the Sabbath” to mean the weekly Sabbath occuring during the Festival of Unleavened Bread. Counting the Omer therefore began on a Sunday, and ended on Sunday fifty days later.
* Essenes interpreted “the day after the Sabbath” as the weekly Sabbath occurring after the week of Unleavened Bread, so they observe Shavuot on Sunday but a week later than the Sadducees. The Essenic interpretation is of these three the most obscure.
* Pharisees interpreted “the day after the Sabbath” to be the High Sabbath which occurred immediately after the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread. So the day changes each year. This is how I read it, plus we have most of Judaism following this reasoning. And since the Sadducees in effect died out after the destruction of the Temple, which left the Pharisees firmly in charge, it is no surprise theirs became the dominant interpretation and method for counting the Omer.

But, people being people the Messianic movement has reopened the controversy. The assembly I may be going to worship with follows the Saddusaical method, so I believe they will celebrate it on the 30th. i will still keep the day I believe to be Shavuot as a Shabbat, starting the 16th through the 17th of this month (Gregorian). But I may go and celebrate it with them. That way I keep the day I believe it should be but still (the best I can do) will fulfill the command to have a holy convocation.

Not having a congregation to meet with there, I’d say just do what you normally do on a Shabbat.

[mystic]

Thanks. So since Pentecost is celebrated by the Church this year on May 23 meaning there won't be any assembly here on Monday, what can one do for an offering?

Also, I am seeing on the net Shavuot will begin Sunday evening May 16 and end on Tuesday evening May 18. So if the Sun-Mon is Shabbat then Tuesday is a regular day right?


Then too I am wondering why since Shavuot and Pentecost happened at the same time why doesn't;t the church celebrate it on the same day as Shavuot?

[alon]

May 12, 2021 3:29:42 GMT -8 mystic said:

Thanks. So since Pentecost is celebrated by the Church this year on May 23 meaning there won't be any assembly here on Monday, what can one do for an offering?
Find a good Messianic cause and give to them. Israel right now is under severe attack and desperately in need of assistance, so you could give to them. Or we use the resources of Synagogue Chavurat HaMashiach to come here and discuss things like this, so if you can't think of anyone else to give to I'm sure they could use the funds. Where you give is up to you, as is how much. 

Also, I am seeing on the net Shavuot will begin Sunday evening May 16 and end on Tuesday evening May 18. So if the Sun-Mon is Shabbat then Tuesday is a regular day right?
Yes, there is no commanded feast on Tuesday as I read it. Torah clearly only commands one day for Shavuot. However the Ultra Orthodox claim that before the giving of Torah the Jewish calendar operated differently. They say the day started in the morning, not the previous evening. This would skew the Omer count, causing Shavuot to start a day later. So they celebrate both days. Their reasoning gets a bit convoluted to me, and even they agree Torah commands 6 Sivan. But they are not called "Ultra" Orthodox for nothing, so they do a 2 day Shavuot. If you were on an Ultra Orthodox site that would explain why they give 2 days. If not, I have no idea. 

Then too I am wondering why since Shavuot and Pentecost happened at the same time why doesn't;t the church celebrate it on the same day as Shavuot?
Churches, if they are even cognizant of Shavuot (most are not) will likely always celebrate it on a Sunday. It's just the way they are; like changing Passover to Easter Sunday. It's their day. Plus, since they would likely count from Easter (not the day after their "Sabbath" as is commanded) they will always land on a Sunday for "Pentecost."

[mystic]

Can a person give an offering from their tithing funds or does the offering need to be separate? Since I support the IFCJ on a regular basis I can and should give to the Synagogue mentioned especially since I usually view part of their services on a Saturday.

Also, taken from an IFCJ article: www.ifcj.org/learn/jewish-holidays/shavuot/what-is-shavuot-pentecost/

This below I have never encountered or noticed

God initially offered the to each of 70 nations, who would not accepted it without first asking what it was about. After hearing the commandments, each nation had some excuse for not accepting them. God finally turned to the nation of Israel, who said “kol asher diber Adonai na’aseh,” which means “all that the LORD says we will do.” Unlike the other nations, Israel chose the before knowing its contents (Exodus 19:8).

Where do they see this please?

[alon]

May 13, 2021 2:59:52 GMT -8 mystic said:

Can a person give an offering from their tithing funds or does the offering need to be separate? Since I support the IFCJ on a regular basis I can and should give to the Synagogue mentioned especially since I usually view part of their services on a Saturday.
Tithes and offerings are different. Tithes you owe to God and generally do not have discretion on how they are spent. Offerings are given above and beyond what is owed, and can be designated where and how they are spent. That is the traditional way of looking at it anyhow. In our case where we have no regular assembly I lump them together and break up my giving. But always I try to make sure they go where they will advance God's work, saving souls. This can take many forms. For example, you mentioned the IFCJ. Since the help comes largely from concerned "Christians" (where most Jews lump us anyhow), that is a type of witness that we care about them. And they are God's chosen people. So how I handle it is I'll  give of my offerings to them or like orgs. Tithes I try to send to Messianic causes. But the lines (amounts) tend to be a little more blurred as I round off amounts. However if/when I have a qahal where I regularly fellowship they get all my tithes, no strings attached. That's just an example of how I do it. You should follow whatever you think God wishes, not necessarily what I do.

Also, taken from an IFCJ article: www.ifcj.org/learn/jewish-holidays/shavuot/what-is-shavuot-pentecost/

This below I have never encountered or noticed

God initially offered the to each of 70 nations, who would not accepted it without first asking what it was about. After hearing the commandments, each nation had some excuse for not accepting them. God finally turned to the nation of Israel, who said “kol asher diber Adonai na’aseh,” which means “all that the LORD says we will do.” Unlike the other nations, Israel chose the before knowing its contents (Exodus 19:8).

Where do they see this please?
In the Talmud, specifically I believe it is in the Gemara. It's a midrash, which is a Jewish form of interpretation that goes beyond what is said in scripture. Originally I think midrashim were meant to engage the mind and encourage you ask questions more than to be taken as truth. But over time many have become believed by a significant portion of Jews. I don't want to speculate on how many hold this view, as I am certainly no expert. For our purposes, that is enough. If you are interested, do a search.

[mystic]

I did read the Talmud and the Zohar and never saw anywhere that I can remember where God offered the to each of 70 nations. I don't buy into everything those IFCJ articles contain.

For offerings on Shauvot, is the command to give during the Sabbath on Sun/Mon or can/should be done on Tuesday?

[alon]

May 13, 2021 8:29:35 GMT -8 mystic said:

I did read the Talmud and the Zohar and never saw anywhere that I can remember where God offered the to each of 70 nations. I don't buy into everything those IFCJ articles contain.

For offerings on Shauvot, is the command to give during the Sabbath on Sun/Mon or can/should be done on Tuesday?

In ancient times they brought sheafs of grain, as commanded. So bringing money on a Shabbat was not an issue. However I'm guessing you don't have a lot of that in NYC, so just follow halacha where you are giving. If you are giving to an entity like Israeli relief agencies, you'll have to mail a check or give a credit card anyhow, so just send it any time.

I have not read the entire Talmud, nor Zohar. But I went to the link you provided and got this:

"According to a well-known Jewish Midrash (the oral traditions that eventually were written down), God initially offered the Torah to each of 70 nations, who would not accepted it without first asking what it was about. After hearing the commandments, each nation had some excuse for not accepting them. God finally turned to the nation of Israel, who said “kol asher diber Adonai na’aseh,” which means “all that the LORD says we will do.” Unlike the other nations, Israel chose the Torah before knowing its contents (Exodus 19:8)." 

The "Oral Traditions" are the Mishna, the first part of the Talmud. So it's there somewhere.

You said:

I don't buy into everything those IFCJ articles contain.

Good bit of discernment there. In the end they are practicing Jews, and so will have some different beliefs. Like talking with Christians, we must be on our guard and not accept everything they say at face value. However that is not to say we cannot learn from them. Maybe try to discern what the original intent, or point of this midrash was. Try to put aside any preconceived ideas and think like the ancient sages would have thought. But again, when doing this kind of exercise we must discern the truth or falsehood of our own thoughts; and that can be a hard thing to do sometimes.    




 

[mystic]

I now get what you mean by tithing to spreading the word of God. So yes, I will support the Synagogue too which supports this board from now on. A lot of my learning have come from this board so just makes sense, sorry for this oversight as I had thought tithing involved giving only to the unfortunate.

I will contact the Aish Rabbi's this week to inquire on the 70 Nations aspect and will report back.

BTW, any word on when the Synagogue might resume the online meetings again?

[mystic]

I found an interesting article here on this:

blogs.timesofisrael.com/did-the-nations-of-the-world-actually-reject-the-/

I too don't agree that God actually "offered" the to any other nation.

[alon]

May 23, 2021 4:15:34 GMT -8 mystic said:

I found an interesting article here on this:

blogs.timesofisrael.com/did-the-nations-of-the-world-actually-reject-the-/

I too don't agree that God actually "offered" the to any other nation.

Again, you are dealing here with a midrash- a story that may or may not be true (and probably isn't), but that was never meant to be taken as true any more than you believe the "Three Little Pigs" is true. But like the fairy-tale, a midrash makes us think and teaches us lessons. The author in his "About Me" section says he is a lawyer, but gives no hint of his religious affiliation. By his name and the way he writes I think he may be an Orthodox Jew, or at least from that background. So he may hold all midrashim to be factual. Regardless, he is doing in his artical exactly what midrashim were designed to make us do: to think, to question, and to find (preferably) open ended answers. So, God did not go to all the other nations individually and offer them Torah. But (as you almost ask in another thread) does He offer it to them now? If so, how? Why? ... Lot to think about from one small story ...

What is the real reason the 3rd pig was spared? Would straw have worked in the tropics where there are no wolves? It would be a much better choice of roofing material there especially. And had the 2nd pig used better lumber and construction techniques would a wooden house have been ok? Was the 3rd pig just a better builder having the masonry skills required to erect straight, strong walls? I think he and his house was spared so that he could take in the other 2 pigs, thus saving them and showing them the error of their ways; maybe teach them masonry skills. Could this have parallels to the midrash in question?

Does give one reason to ponder ...