does bible favour slavery & inequality

[mosheli]

Does the bible favour slavery (for life) and inequality of women and contradict the golden rule in Exodus 21:7-11?
I tried to answer this skeptic's accusation. But I don't have enough knowledge of Hebrew language and culture/background and times and context.

[alon]

Jan 14, 2021 17:14:24 GMT -8 mosheli said:

Does the bible favour slavery (for life) and inequality of women and contradict the golden rule in Exodus 21:7-11?
I tried to answer this skeptic's accusation. But I don't have enough knowledge of Hebrew language and culture/background and times and context.

First off, your skeptic is looking at an ancient society and applying current western standards to it. We have a safety net for people in dire circumstances that existed nowhere at the time, and frankly doesn’t exist in most places in the world today. In those days selling oneself or a family member was a common way of keeping the entire family from starving. In much of the world today as then this would mean hard toil for long hours with little food; the type of food your skeptic (or me either) would eat unless starving. It meant beatings and degradation and other cruelties.

This is where the Hebrews differed. “Slavery,” or outright ownership of a fellow Hebrew was not legal. It was more like indentured servitude, as the maximum they could serve was 7 yrs:

Exodus 21:2 (ESV) When you buy a Hebrew slave [Or servant; the Hebrew term ‘ebed designates a range of social and economic roles], he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing.

And they had protections in Torah:
-- Gen 17.2 - they were still full members of the household and the larger community
-- Deu 5.14 - they are assured a day of rest, the Shabbat
-- Ex 21:26-27 - they were protected from cruelty

The term used in your passage and translated as “slave” in most English Bibles is אָמָה âmâh, which indicates a maidservant. However a woman could be indentured for the purpose of becoming wife to either the purchaser or his son. This is the case in the passage you quote. Because such a woman had additional protections, this was more like an arranged marriage. As a wife she would be his social equal.

Exodus 21:8a (ESV) If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed.

This is how most translations say it, however a better translation would be “If she does not please her master, so that he has not designated her for himself.” In other words, if he rejects her for some reason. In this case, she could be redeemed, probably by a kinsman redeemer. If she could not be redeemed she still had al the protections of the Hebrew law; and she could not be sold to a foreigner who might abuse her:

Exodus 21:8b (ESV) He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her.

And again we see she is as family:

Exodus 21:9 (ESV) If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter.

Now some say there is a loophole, in that if he makes her the wife of a slave she and her children belong to the so called ”slave master” (sic.) forever. I disagree, since I think God is smarter than that. But here is the verse anyhow:

Exodus 21:3-4 (ESV) If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone.

This doesn’t say if he gives another indentured servant for his wife. If the master gave him a wife from his permanent household, in which case the wife would stay with the household and the children with the wife. I can’t be certain this is what it means, however since after 7 yrs or in the Yovel a “slave” would be freed anyhow, it seems the most likely explanation to me. And in any event, he couldn't force the servant to marry and have kids anyhow.

[mosheli]

Thanks for the great reply Alon, it clears up alot for me, though I don't know what they will think. It shows how much I did not know on the Hebrew & biblical language and culture & context.

Just one further thing. They were also criticising that it says men can have a 2nd wife but women can't.

They also claim that
"Slavery is again endorsed in the NT, just as it is in the OT. --- 1 Timothy 6:1, 1 Peter 2:18, Titus 2:9-10, Ephesians 6:9, etc....
Women are also below men 1 Timothy 2:11-12."

[alon]

Jan 15, 2021 17:54:47 GMT -8 mosheli said:

Just one further thing. They were also criticising that it says men can have a 2nd wife but women can't.

They also claim that
"Slavery is again endorsed in the NT, just as it is in the OT. --- 1 Timothy 6:1, 1 Peter 2:18, Titus 2:9-10, Ephesians 6:9, etc....
Women are also below men 1 Timothy 2:11-12."

A second wife was a custom of the times that was allowed, not commanded. And given the natural roles of men and women, two husbands would never have worked.

As I always say, context matters. In New Testament times Israel was under Roman rule. This must always be taken into account when reading. Scripture does not command slavery nor endorse it in the NT. It does however acknowledge its existence. And slavery under Rome was absolute and cruelly enforced. A runaway slave would likely find himself hanging on a Roman execution stake.

1 Timothy 6:1 Let all who are under a yoke as bondservants regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled.

This is part of a longer letter about being content with your station in life. Not always agitating, crying for more by any means.

1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust.

Context here is it is speaking of maintaining your witness.

Titus 2:9-10 Bondservants are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.

Again the Greek term doulos translated “bondservant” does include slaves. But again this is part of a discourse on keeping your witness. Just because your station in life is low it is no excuse to sin.

Ephesians 6:9 Masters, do the same to them, and stop your threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him.

Context here is obedience and responsibility before God. The passage talks of the relationship of anyone in authority and those they have authority over. Telling masters to treat those in their charge fairly is hardly an endorsement of slavery. It just says in this verse if you do have a slave you should not abuse them.

1 Timothy 2:11-12 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Again, context must be considered. This letter concerns our roles and responsibilities within the body of believers. God placed men in charge, but we must recall that with that came responsibilities. It was not just a hierarchy wherein men rule over women. We are to put our wives needs before our own. Also marriage is a partnership, not an authoritarian relationship. This extends into the body of believers. Men and women are equal, but have separate roles.

This idea of pulling scripture out of context then making doctrine based on it is a favorite of the church, and now it is backfiring as the practice is used by non-believers against them. We are Messianic, and we seek a deeper understanding. Don’t let anyone, Christian or unbeliever alike pull a verse (or two) out of context and use it against you. Most discussions/accusations can be handled by considering context:
of the passage it is in
of the entire letter or book
of all the writings of the author
of the entire Bible
of who is being addressed
of the historical time and place- what is happening in the world around them
of customs
of language- here doulos is ambiguous, encompassing both slave and bondservant; but what might the original Hebrew have said
of geography, politics, other dominant religions …

Of any and everything that has bearing or influence on what is being written. Also consider the context of your accusers. How do they frame their accusations? What is their true purpose? Their primary focus?

For example, the way you list their accusations here starts and ends with accusations that men oppress women. That slavery is sandwiched between these accusations might point to their own belief that men subjugate women. The way to handle that would be to call them out on it and get the true point of contention out in the open. It will come out later after you answer their specific accusations anyhow, at which point the paradigm will shift and you must start all over. Get them to commit up front; is slavery the real issue (in which case we can discuss slavery) or is it women’s rights? Make them choose one topic up front instead of derailing the discussion later.

I don't know if this is how they presented their case to you. It is just an example based on how you stated it here. The point is to look at how they frame their arguments and bring out their real argument early on so they cannot pull a switch on you later.

[mosheli]

Thanks Alon, That helps alot. I did have some inklings but I just didn't have the knowledge. I did say to them they were attacking but they denied and just said they were pointing out a contradiction.

It was in a thread in a christian forum. Strangely now the thread/topic seems to have been deleted as there is an error. Which makes me wonder if the forum admins/owners are ingenuine.

I can't say its very easy for me to be content or witness in the slavery I'm stuck in though.

[alon]

Jan 16, 2021 15:11:28 GMT -8 mosheli said:

Thanks Alon, That helps alot. I did have some inklings but I just didn't have the knowledge. I did say to them they were attacking but they denied and just said they were pointing out a contradiction.

It was in a thread in a christian forum. Strangely now the thread/topic seems to have been deleted as there is an error. Which makes me wonder if the forum admins/owners are ingenuine.

I can't say its very easy for me to be content or witness in the slavery I'm stuck in though.

Christians often avoid the difficult topics. To be fair, so do some Messianics, though we do tend to tackle them more. What kind of slavery are you stuck in?  And how- I was unaware Australasia had any slavery. Are you being metaphorical?

Dan C

[mosheli]

Well I call it slavery though it is not classical slavery (being forced to work without wages, etc). Maybe bondage is a better word, but that makes it sound to much like just self fault and not others faults. Or maybe "freedom to starve" is better. I've already mentioned some in the topic "how can I love the Lord when". I couldn't even begin to explain how much my life is just trapped in an impossible all negatives and no positives situation because of this socio-economic regime. There are many things and can only give one or two examples. Being forced to eat & drink fluoridated water & food every meal every day is brain/body slavery. Not being able to shift and being forced to have to stay in this place because of the housing crisis and excessively expensive prices/rents is slavery (slaves can't leave the place). Being forced to always keep hearing a ringing sound all day every day for 3 years so far and everyone purposely refuses to stop/fix it is slavery. Mass unemployment has caused some of us to be in slavery because we can't afford mortgages, high rents, women don't want a man that hasn't got a job, etc. And no matter how much hard work studies I've done I never get any positive in return just ignoring or negative. Whenever I try to be positive it just falls flat. And I can't find how/why God won't answer prayers. There is no way out unless God helps. Like the prodigal son and the Psalmist etc no one is willing or able to help (and they won't stop hindering/harming). And I am not the only one. There are homeless and beggars in street here. There are people on benefit having to live in hotels because of housing crisis and have to battle with "Winz" (social welfare/security) every week to get them to pay the weeks accomodation bill. Most people here are always "busy" working to pay the bills & living costs & bank, and "have no time".

(Not that it is all others/regime's fault. I made the mistake of not getting into employment/work/job and career/trade/craft when in late teens & early twenties and after. Though it wasn't my fault here was mass unemployment, and that I wanted to do my studies, and that I didn't realise/know it would result in this situation years/decades later. And I now I can't work now because of my situation and condition and studies, and because I haven't got any qualifications or experience, and because there is still unemployment. It is true that work is the only way to be free in this regime and in life (except for share holders who brag that they don't work but their money works for them). Not working resulted in slavery. But it doesn't excuse all the pro-slavery policies of the regime.)

(I don't expect an answer to that, I'm just answering the question to show that there is slavery of sorts here.)

Revelation confirms that there are slaves in the end times.

6:15 The kings of the earth, the princes, the commanding officers, the rich, the strong, and every slave and free person, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains.

13:16 He causes all, the small and the great, the rich and the poor, and the free and the slave, to be given marks on their right hands, or on their foreheads;

18:11-12 The merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise any more; merchandise of gold, silver, precious stones, pearls, fine linen, purple, silk, scarlet, all expensive wood, every vessel of ivory, every vessel made of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble; and cinnamon, incense, perfume, frankincense, wine, olive oil, fine flour, wheat, sheep, horses, chariots, and people's bodies and souls.

19:18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, and small and great."

Though I really should be trying to have faith and not write/say anything bad, as it seems I just suffer more and longer and God won't answer. But all the hell wrongs keep stopping me from being able to do my paper studies and I really can't find anything else to do in this situation while I'm waiting. I've tried to find christian/messianic forums and tried to keep busy in history studies and forums but there is actually very little in the web/net and here locally.

[alon]

That's what I thought from our previous conversations- metaphorically you are a slave to the injustices of others. I can't add a lot to what I have already told you. However I did work up something due to the depression many feel today over the US elections. I just lost a (not too very) distant relative to suicide from depression. His was long standing clinical depression, but certainly aggravated by the uncertainty of the times. However the post should help you as well (not that you are suicidal, but you do sound depressed). Here's the link:

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/5005/psalm-27

Dan      

[jimmie]

The word "Slave" is only used two times in the KJV. Not sure why it is so widely believed the bible talks about slavery.

Proverbs 29:21 He that delicately bringeth up his servant from a child shall have him become his son at the length.