Can you "love thy neighbor as thyself" but still avoid them?

[mystic]

I am so surrounded by this constant issue, seems there is no escape from it. Last Saturday one of my neighbors who is a man filled with debauchery, hatred and bigotry was hanging out with one tenant downstairs when that neighbor and his son got into a very heavy argument with loud cussing. This neighbor is always very helpful so had his good side but he does not respect people with his constant talks of violence, hatred and bigotry.

Every single time I am in the presence of this man I have to fight very hard within myself to either stand there and listen to him or to walk away.

Then there is the partying here with family and friends visiting. My mom is always telling me I should at least come out and say hello to the visitors but problem is the very first things I have to deal with is some form of debauchery which is why I prefer to avoid any contact with them. 

Since there is no middle ground with most of these visitors, as long as I am in their presence I will have to deal with debauchery and other bad stuff. So my issue is knowing what does this Scripture demand of me, should I avoid them completely or deal with whatever situation occurs with them? My thinking is to avoid them but should they ever need my help for anything then I am there for them and that should be fulfilling the scripture?

[alon]

Dec 27, 2020 4:45:55 GMT -8 mystic said:

I am so surrounded by this constant issue, seems there is no escape from it. Last Saturday one of my neighbors who is a man filled with debauchery, hatred and bigotry was hanging out with one tenant downstairs when that neighbor and his son got into a very heavy argument with loud cussing. This neighbor is always very helpful so had his good side but he does not respect people with his constant talks of violence, hatred and bigotry.

Every single time I am in the presence of this man I have to fight very hard within myself to either stand there and listen to him or to walk away.

Then there is the partying here with family and friends visiting. My mom is always telling me I should at least come out and say hello to the visitors but problem is the very first things I have to deal with is some form of debauchery which is why I prefer to avoid any contact with them. 

Since there is no middle ground with most of these visitors, as long as I am in their presence I will have to deal with debauchery and other bad stuff. So my issue is knowing what does this Scripture demand of me, should I avoid them completely or deal with whatever situation occurs with them? My thinking is to avoid them but should they ever need my help for anything then I am there for them and that should be fulfilling the scripture?

First off we need to understand what was meant when a biblical Hebrew spoke of their neighbor. They lived in Israel or in Jewish communities in the diaspora. So their neighbors would have been others subject to Torah observance: to wit, believers. The Hebrew people have always, as much as possible kept themselves separated, apart, kadosh- avoiding Gentiles and their ways as much as possible. To mix with your neighbors there while in the midst of such debauchery would be to give tacit approval to it. So if you are thinking you should be there to witness to them, that's a no starter. If you tried, they would shut you down harshly so as to not lose face to everyone else there. If you are looking to be a witness, I'd say politely refuse to mix with them, explaining you are not comfortable with their behavior. Then pray for a more appropriate opening to witness.

This is the problem we face. The world expects us to compromise with them. We ca bend; be polite (but firm), greet them when we see them, even participate when your son needs you at a function you otherwise would not be comfortable being a part of. But we should not ever outright compromise with evil, because I can guarantee they will be back for more compromise later, and they will expect it of you then!

They should not expect you to socialize at functions where you are not comfortable. But it is up to you to say no, to remove yourself. To be kadosh, set apart.

Dan C 

            

[mystic]

I've always thought love thy neighbor was a command to everyone on earth but are you saying that this is not so and that it was a command given by Christ only for the Jews? This would make sense I am thinking since Christ was not readily willing to heal the Canaanite woman's daughter?

[alon]

Dec 28, 2020 7:20:19 GMT -8 mystic said:

I've always thought love thy neighbor was a command to everyone on earth but are you saying that this is not so and that it was a command given by Christ only for the Jews? This would make sense I am thinking since Christ was not readily willing to heal the Canaanite woman's daughter?

While God Himself does love the world, and He does require us to treat the "stranger" and the "sojourner" with justice and mercy, I nowhere see the command assumed by most English speakers for universal love and tolerance. The world of most ancient people was small, and unless they came into contact with travelers such as caravans the average Jew would have little concept of the outside world. The national identity was centered around Jerusalem, not a close sense of unity of the tribes. This to the point they mistrusted each other enough to divide the kingdom. Jeroboam knew if the people of the new northern kingdom were to keep worshiping in Jerusalem their hearts would be drawn back there:

1 Kings 12:26-27 (ESV) And Jeroboam said in his heart, “Now the kingdom will turn back to the house of David. If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the temple of the Lord at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will turn again to their lord, to Rehoboam king of Judah, and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah.”

So he established new places of worship in the north. The point is the Jewish concept of universal love did not really extend far beyond their own communities. They knew no one else, even in their own country (then countries). Even those on the trade routes for the most part kept themselves separate from the lewd, debauched pagans traveling through their lands. Jews who were traveling avoided the inns, staying instead at the local synagogue where they stoped. Jews were to keep separate, kadosh. They did not participate in the bawdiness and lewdness of the pagan cultures around them, or even traveling through their lands.

Should you love your relatives? Yes. And the guy next door? Yes. But while you may have to tolerate their behavior, are you commanded to mix with them and participate in their parties? No, quite the opposite. You are to separate yourself from this behavior. And are you commanded to love them unconditionally? Not even your closest relatives:

Matthew 10:37 (ESV) Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

[mystic]

Did Christ give any universal commands? Seems to me he came only to teach the Jews how to live God's commands and he died for the Jews, not the gentiles?

[alon]

Dec 29, 2020 5:35:18 GMT -8 mystic said:

Did Christ give any universal commands? Seems to me he came only to teach the Jews how to live God's commands and he died for the Jews, not the gentiles?

Your question goes to the core of our purpose here. All the commandments and instructions given were and are universal; and yet, they were specifically for the Jews, with very few exceptions. How can this be?

If you are a Gentile and accept Yeshua, you are grafted onto the Hebrew rootstalk (Rom 11), made an heir to the promise, and moreover you partake in the covenant. You are adopted into the Jewish family. Now opinions vary on exactly what that means exactly, but I can tell you this much- you are now responsible for His Torah and every word of scripture; the whole Bible! We believe this to be the 66 book Protestant Bible. But we also read other books not in canon in order to gain a deeper understanding. Not to give them scriptural equivalence, but sometimes they can shed more light on historical events, customs, how Jews of a particular time thought, ... 

We become Hebrews by adoption and by practice. Not in the contemporary Rabbinical sense, but in a very practical sense. This is especially true if one is Torah observant Messianic. You are a Jew by adoption, though contemporary Judaism does not accept you:

Romans 2:28-29 (ESV) For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

He is a Jew who God says is a Jew. Let men say I am not, it matters not one bit to me.

Now that is not to say I claim to be like one born and raised Jewish. I don't have the same experiences, the same history, the same thought processes. I struggle to think Hebraically when I study scripture. But I do make the effort. Rav Shaul warned us more than once not to try or claim to be what we are not:

1 Corinthians 7:17a,20 (ESV) Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. ... Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.

So we are Jewish by adoption, but we are not to try and replace or even denigrate their status as the chosen people. We are joined to them, not they to us. This is whether either of us likes it or not. We are to leave our old faith, traditions, and all ungodliness and become set apart to His service. 

Short answer: yeah, Yeshua spoke only to the Jews; which is OK because you are one now!

Dan C

 

[mystic]

Dec 29, 2020 7:49:04 GMT -8 alon said:

Dec 29, 2020 5:35:18 GMT -8 mystic said:

Did Christ give any universal commands? Seems to me he came only to teach the Jews how to live God's commands and he died for the Jews, not the gentiles?

Your question goes to the core of our purpose here. All the commandments and instructions given were and are universal; and yet, they were specifically for the Jews, with very few exceptions. How can this be?

If you are a Gentile and accept Yeshua, you are grafted onto the Hebrew rootstalk (Rom 11), made an heir to the promise, and moreover you partake in the covenant. You are adopted into the Jewish family. Now opinions vary on exactly what that means exactly, but I can tell you this much- you are now responsible for His and every word of scripture; the whole Bible! We believe this to be the 66 book Protestant Bible. But we also read other books not in canon in order to gain a deeper understanding. Not to give them scriptural equivalence, but sometimes they can shed more light on historical events, customs, how Jews of a particular time thought, ... 

We become Hebrews by adoption and by practice. Not in the contemporary Rabbinical sense, but in a very practical sense. This is especially true if one is observant Messianic. You are a Jew by adoption, though contemporary Judaism does not accept you:

Romans 2:28-29 (ESV) For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

He is a Jew who God says is a Jew. Let men say I am not, it matters not one bit to me.

Now that is not to say I claim to be like one born and raised Jewish. I don't have the same experiences, the same history, the same thought processes. I struggle to think Hebraically when I study scripture. But I do make the effort. Rav Shaul warned us more than once not to try or claim to be what we are not:

1 Corinthians 7:17a,20 (ESV) Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. ... Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.

So we are Jewish by adoption, but we are not to try and replace or even denigrate their status as the chosen people. We are joined to them, not they to us. This is whether either of us likes it or not. We are to leave our old faith, traditions, and all ungodliness and become set apart to His service. 

Short answer: yeah, Yeshua spoke only to the Jews; which is OK because you are one now!

Dan C

 

Dan, I think you've very accurately summed up this whole thing with the above.

Orthodox Jews in my experience never considers a Gentile as being grafted into Judaism and also considers Lord Jehovah to be "their" God only and not ours [Gentiles], that is the core of my problem with Orthodox Jews even though I have ZERO animosity to towards that group. I think those are the best words I can take from all of Paul's writings.

[mystic]

To sum up, did Christ ever speak any words which was meant for or directed to the Gentiles?

[alon]

Dec 31, 2020 4:57:13 GMT -8 mystic said:

To sum up, did Christ ever speak any words which was meant for or directed to the Gentiles?

John 4 describes the encounter of Yeshua and the Samaritan woman at the well. Samaritans were a mixture of those left in Israel after the Assyrian diaspora and those who’d been imported to the region and taught to worship the God of Israel. Their problem was they mixed their old gods and the God of this new land they were in. Some also had mixed in marriage. And at any rate, the Northern Kingdom had changed Torah as well as abandoning Yerushalayim even before their exile. Samaritans thought themselves the true Jews, while Jews did not think them Jews at all. At best their status was summed up in the deragotory term “Half-Jews.” So some say Yeshua was addressing a Gentile woman and then her entire town. Others say these were simply more of the “lost sheep of Yisroel.” Either way, clearly this showed His ministry would reach outside what was considered to be pure Judaism.

Mat 15.21-28 tells of a Cana’anite woman who came to Yeshua asking her daughter be delivered from a demon. He initially ignored her, then rebuked her. But her faith was so great, in the end He granted her request. So He did (if reluctantly) speak to this Gentile and grant her diliverance.

Acts 1:8 (ESV) But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

This instruction was given His new shaliachim, His Apostles after the “Great Commission” (which was their semicha/ordination) and while awaiting Shavuot, which turned out to be Pentecost when the Ruach fell upon them. So apparently here He did speak to His apostles about going to the Gentiles as well. However their primary goal was still to reach Jews living in Gentile lands where they would necessarily meet and should therefore witness to many Gentiles. However read the accounts of these missionary journeys and the apostles were going primarily to synagogues (don’t be fooled by the term “church” used in English Bibles) and ministering to Jews and proselytes.

John 10:16 (ESV) And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Here Yeshua could have been talking about Gentiles, or He could have meant all the variety of sects of Judaism, some so different they could be called “different Judaisms,” like the Samaritans.

John 12:20-24 (ESV) Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks. So these came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and asked him, “Sir, we wish to see Jesus.” Philip went and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus. And Jesus answered them, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

Christianity of course says this was an example where Jesus witnessed to Gentiles. But the text never says He ever saw them. Instead He talked about a grain of wheat falling to the ground and dieing. What’s that about?

In ancient cultures you did not simply accept another god and worship him whaie still living with your old family, friends, culture OR job. Notice the “OR.” You gave up ALL of these, becoming an outcast, seen as a traitor to your own people. Changing religion then meant changing cultures as well. Gods were thought of as belonging to specific lands, so worshiping a new god meant moving to the lands that god was tied to. This is what it meant to die to self and become a new man. Literally, you were reinvented; new customs, new people, new country, new religion, new god(s). New life. You, like the grain of wheat must die to your old self in order to sprout anew.

He was saying they must accept Him and be saved, becoming Jews first, then His shaliachim could minister to them. His time had come to be crucified, and in doing that He would minister to the world- to any who would come and accet Him, thus being grafted onto the Jewish rootstalk.

[mystic]

My thought was that Christ had selected Paul to minister to the Gentiles, is that accurate or was Paul's mission only to seek out Jews in other lands?

[alon]

Jan 1, 2021 4:58:49 GMT -8 mystic said:

My thought was that Christ had selected Paul to minister to the Gentiles, is that accurate or was Paul's mission only to seek out Jews in other lands?

Romans 1:16 (ESV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

It is a common misconception that Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. An apostle was a shaliach tzibur, a faithful representative of the sect that sent him out. The Greek term "apostolos" means the same thing- and that would be the sect of the Nazarenes. He witnessed to Jews that they would accept Yeshua and themselves become Nazarenes. He witnessed to Gentiles tat they might renounce their old gods completely and become followers of the Jewish sect of the Nazarenes. But as a shaliach of the Nazarene sect his primary mission and duty was to tat sect, both born Jews and proselytes who were former Gentiles.     

[mystic]

So wait, for clarity, was it the Apostles job/agenda to convert gentiles or only minister to converts? Also these scriptures below seems to suggest he was chosen to lead the gentiles?

Galatians 1:15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles

Galatians 2:8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles.

RomanS:13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

[alon]

Jan 2, 2021 5:03:57 GMT -8 mystic said:

So wait, for clarity, was it the Apostles job/agenda to convert gentiles or only minister to converts? 

Both. But as far as witnessing and convincing them to accept Yeshua, it was (and still is) always “To the Jew first.” Once saved, Gentiles became Jews, proselytes to the sect of the Nazarenes. So he would minister to them as well as those born Jewish.

Also these scriptures below seems to suggest he was chosen to lead the gentiles?

OK, let’s look at them:

Galatians 1:15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles

“Among” the Gentiles, not just “to” the Gentiles. He went among the Gentiles to the Jews in the diaspora, because the Jews were “among” te Gentiles.

Galatians 2:8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles.

Peter did not go anywhere until much later when he went to Rome. He stayed among the Jews. Paul went out among the Gentiles to the Jews in the diaspora. And yes, he made some converts among the Gentiles. But most would have been made by the Jews there and not just Paul. But he ministered to them all, Jews and Greeks who were proselytes as well as God-fearers and those interested in following Yeshua.

RomanS:13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Read more:

Romans 1:7 To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

What do we always say? Read it in CONTEXT! Do not allow the church to just pull out a verse or passage and use it against you. This is usually read to us like Paul is there speaking to them in person, and he has changed the subject. Wrong! This is a letter to the believers in Rome, and Paul stayed on topic! And those believers were Nazarenes, NOT Christians as there were no Christians then. Now with that in mind, let’s read just a bit more than you quoted:

Romans 11:11-14  So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them

He is talking about salvation and the relation of these saved Gentiles to their Jewish brethren. You need to read all of Romans; take in the full message. Think about who all Paul is writing to and what all he is telling them. Pulling out these verses as stand alone statements can be very confusing and lead to false doctrine.

[mystic]

Thanks, I have been trying to read verses in context and am making progress but for some things you have a much better tendency to read deeper into it.

[mystic]

Yes, even in the  it shows what "neighbor" meant

"You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord."