Matthew 24 Sitting and eating with drunkards?

[mystic]

But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is long delayed,’
and begins to beat his fellow servants,
and eat and drink with drunkards,
the servant’s master will come on an unexpected day
and at an unknown hour and will punish him severely
and assign him a place with the hypocrites,
where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.”

Ok so Christ was talking to his Disciples but does that apply to us too? 

[alon]

Aug 27, 2020 4:13:25 GMT -8 mystic said:

But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is long delayed,’
and begins to beat his fellow servants,
and eat and drink with drunkards,
the servant’s master will come on an unexpected day
and at an unknown hour and will punish him severely
and assign him a place with the hypocrites,
where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.”

Ok so Christ was talking to his Disciples but does that apply to us too? 

Matthew 24:36-39,48-51 (ESV) “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. ... But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The lesson most certainly does.

Grinding (or gnashing) of teeth is an idiom meaning anger and or hatred, as in Acts 7:54 as they stoned Steven. It often (as here) refers to the reaction of the ungodly at judgement when they are thrown into the fire. This is part of a longer end times lecture by Yeshua. It depicts a servant who is using his position to live large while abusing those under his charge. It is saying he will be caught in his sins in the end, and punished accordingly. And we are all servants of the Most High God, so we need to watch our interactions with others closely. I have a habit of being abrupt and often too judgmental; and there is a huge difference in using good judgement and being judgmental. So I have to watch myself- a thing I have not been doing too well lately in some conversations. But it feeds my ego to be "right." That is using God's resources to live large myself, so thanks for the reminder, I need to watch myself. And that I think is what this is about: using what God has given us, whether that be physical or mental strengths, wealth, position or power. But using those gifts to further the kingdom, not live large at others expense.

Dan C 

[mystic]

I admire the fact that you can look at yourself Dan and admit any wrong doings. I do the very same.

This issue of sitting and eating with drunkards is a major issue I have had to deal with since making my covenant with God six years ago. In my circles drinking and partying has always been the way of life for many of us, it was a normal thing. Some of my oldest dearest friends still do the same.

When I had told 2 of my closest buds that I will no longer be drinking the way I used to and I will have to refrain from any form of debauchery when being among them, the relationship was lost. I have accepted that as I understand they would not be comfortable with my presence so I do not fault them, I pray for them and have always told them I will be here for them whenever they should ever need me so it's been a few years now since I have seen them. I do talk to them once in a long while whenever they should call me to chat for a little.

The main issue I have though is with 2 of my other close buds. Partying has always been a priority for Keith but since I started keeping the Sabbath this prevented me from being at his house on a Saturday so every once in a while I will visit him on a Sunday for a few hours when we will listen to some music, chat and have a few beers [mine watered down]. If anyone should drop in then they would have their conversations but I try my best to keep out of any debauchery in their conversations.

Keith used to send me and others texts each morning about "positivity" which is what a lot of people who don't believe in God seems to be preaching these days. Since my change however and with dropping in references to God whenever I see an opening for it in our conversations, he started sending me Scripture quotes and Prayers instead of the positivity texts and I have to say some of the best I have received came from him. This suggests to me that maybe some things might be rubbing off on him so I see this a positive sign that he's at least listening to me.

Kelvin and I go back since childhood, almost 50 years of close friendship but he is the most debaucherous of all my friends and have always had issues with alcohol and getting drunk. His young daughter goes to Church regularly and keeps trying to get kelvin to go. Kelvin's older brother is a Pastor but he could not get kelvin to go. I have been trying with kelvin and sometimes I see some minor positive changes in him whenever I visit him so I think he listens to me to some extent.

To sum up I have a choice to either abandon these old close friends or to not give up on them, there is no in-between the way I see it.
I was told by a few Christians in the past that I should no longer associate myself with these friends.

Whenever I am among them however, I can see them trying to adjust and paying attention to whatever I should tell them about walking in God's ways so I have to believe God will not frown on me for trying to reach them or being among them whenever I do.

[alon]

Aug 28, 2020 5:01:00 GMT -8 mystic said:

This issue of sitting and eating with drunkards is a major issue I have had to deal with since making my covenant with God six years ago. In my circles drinking and partying has always been the way of life ...

When I had told 2 of my closest buds that I will no longer be drinking the way I used to and I will have to refrain from any form of debauchery when being among them, the relationship was lost. ...

The main issue I have though is with 2 of my other close buds. Partying has always been a priority for Keith but since I started keeping the Sabbath this prevented me from being at his house on a Saturday so every once in a while I will visit him on a Sunday for a few hours when we will listen to some music, chat and have a few beers [mine watered down]. If anyone should drop in then they would have their conversations but I try my best to keep out of any debauchery in their conversations.

Keith used to send me and others texts each morning about "positivity" which is what a lot of people who don't believe in God seems to be preaching these days. Since my change however and with dropping in references to God whenever I see an opening for it in our conversations, he started sending me Scripture quotes and Prayers instead of the positivity texts and I have to say some of the best I have received came from him. This suggests to me that maybe some things might be rubbing off on him so I see this a positive sign that he's at least listening to me.

Kelvin and I go back since childhood, almost 50 years of close friendship but he is the most debaucherous of all my friends and have always had issues with alcohol and getting drunk. His young daughter goes to Church regularly and keeps trying to get kelvin to go. Kelvin's older brother is a Pastor but he could not get kelvin to go. I have been trying with kelvin and sometimes I see some minor positive changes in him whenever I visit him so I think he listens to me to some extent.

To sum up I have a choice to either abandon these old close friends or to not give up on them, there is no in-between the way I see it.
I was told by a few Christians in the past that I should no longer associate myself with these friends.

Whenever I am among them however, I can see them trying to adjust and paying attention to whatever I should tell them about walking in God's ways so I have to believe God will not frown on me for trying to reach them or being among them whenever I do.

I just finished a lengthy study on the importance of witnesses in Deuteronomy, and in Torah and the entire Bible. In fact, this is an important theme in the teachings of Yeshua Himself:

John 5:31-32,36-36,39-40,45-47 (ESV) If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true. There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. ...  But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. ...  You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness [testify] about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. … Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

This comes straight out of Torah, because it takes at least two witnesses to find a man guilty at law, and three are considered better. So Yeshua starts with two, and then builds onto it. There are some things to note here: we bear witness about ourselves, our works (what we do, how we comport ourselves, the company we keep, etc.) bears witness, God Himself bears witness, and Moses (a reference to Torah) will bear witness. These things and more may bear witness for or against us. In fact, we see here that our works and Torah, which are not people may serve as witnesses in court. So may the covenants we've made with God. This will all be important at the final judgement to us as we stand before God. We know this, and at some level our unsaved friends know or intuit it:

Deuteronomy 19:15 (ESV) “A single witness shall not suffice (rise up) against against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established.

Now with so many things that can stand as witness against a person, the last thing most want is another witnesses, especially one who reminds them of their fate: 

Hebrews 11:7 (ESV) By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith

You, just by being a practicing believer are that last category of witness against them. So they have basically two choices: disolve the friendship, or drag you back down into sin with them. This is why most of your friends left you. Not just that you are no fun any more, but you make them very uneasy. 

Of the two that are left, as long as they show improvement and a willingness to listen, I would not advise you to abandon them. But don't go to places like bars or to parties with them where the pressure to overindulge or to sin would be greatest. And as long as they are sending Bible verses (which they probably just see as positive sayings you might now accept) I'd stay with them. But if they should resort to sending suggestive posts or photos, or pressuring you to go with them where you know you shouldn't, I'd say draw the line and do not cross it. Either they cross back, or refuse to go on with them.

Remember, everything can be and is a witness for or against us. And willful sin if unrepented can land even the most righteous person (up to then) on the wrong end of the judgement. We are now in the month of Elul, traditionally a month of reflection on the things we need to repent of and those we need to work on leading up to the High Holy Days and the intense introspection known as the Days of Awe. This is a season of repentance. So it is good we should think of these things and how we can improve. So hold on. Keep trying, but always be wary that your friends don't drag you back into old habits. Addicts are told not to associate with the 'old crowd' for a reason. It is just too easy to be sucked back in. Just one moment of weakness is all it takes.

Dan C

[mystic]

Aug 28, 2020 6:13:44 GMT -8 alon said:

Of the two that are left, as long as they show improvement and a willingness to listen, I would not advise you to abandon them. But don't go to places like bars or to parties with them where the pressure to overindulge or to sin would be greatest. And as long as they are sending Bible verses (which they probably just see as positive sayings you might now accept) I'd stay with them. But if they should resort to sending suggestive posts or photos, or pressuring you to go with them where you know you shouldn't, I'd say draw the line and do not cross it. Either they cross back, or refuse to go on with them.

Remember, everything can be and is a witness for or against us. And willful sin if unrepented can land even the most righteous person (up to then) on the wrong end of the judgement. We are now in the month of Elul, traditionally a month of reflection on the things we need to repent of and those we need to work on leading up to the High Holy Days and the intense introspection known as the Days of Awe. This is a season of repentance. So it is good we should think of these things and how we can improve. So hold on. Keep trying, but always be wary that your friends don't drag you back into old habits. Addicts are told not to associate with the 'old crowd' for a reason. It is just too easy to be sucked back in. Just one moment of weakness is all it takes.

Dan C

Oh no, I am not worried at all about them or anyone dragging me back into sin, I have nipped that in the bud for the most part. I have stopped attending parties in general and going to bars I had given up years ago even before my walk. All of my friends and relatives know my stance with that.

Yes, of course I will not want to put myself in any situation which might cause me to sin. These guys though don't encourage me to sin and in any event the only sin I would be likely to get into is taking part in any wrongful conversations. With regards to them sinning, all they do is sometimes drink too much and talk some nonsense in between their conversations, I don't have a problem with the drinking part so my only issue would be not to engage in any debaucherous conversations.

[mystic]

This from Paul in Corinthians 5 I think is pretty extreme and to me doesn't seem like something Jesus would do?

But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

[alon]

Sept 22, 2020 4:23:00 GMT -8 mystic said:

This from Paul in Corinthians 5 I think is pretty extreme and to me doesn't seem like something Jesus would do?

But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

Well, let's think about it. This is the same Jesus who scrounged the materials, sat down and fashioned a scourge, then cleared the Temple complex with it in a protracted act of violence. The same one who will come again and slaughter all unbelievers. He also confronted religious leaders, often harshly. So I think it safe to say Yeshua could be pretty extreme whenever the situation warrants it.

The context of 1 Cor 5 is fornication and idolatry within the assembly. It isn't saying don't witness to these types of people. It is saying remove those practicing these behaviors from your assembly. This is just one of the places we are told to judge, and specifically to judge those in our assemblies. The sexually immoral, greedy, idolaters, slanderers, drunkards and swindlers are not walking with God. They have either reverted to the world, or never left it in the first place. Either way, they do not belong in the assemblies of the Most High. He mentioned "the feast" and spoke of removing leaven just before this, so that would be Pesach and unleavened bread. We are commanded that no uncircumcised should partake of this feast. Uncircumcised can mean physically for males, but more than that it refers to our heart condition. Leaven of course also can mean sin, and that list is of some of the worst violations of Torah. So this discussion is heavy with metaphors picturing a cohesive body of believers following Torah and communing together with God. It is also very straight forward- if there are those who are violating Torah, get rid of them. Kick them out of the assembly.

Dan C  

[mystic]

Sept 22, 2020 10:26:45 GMT -8 alon said:

Sept 22, 2020 4:23:00 GMT -8 mystic said:

This from Paul in Corinthians 5 I think is pretty extreme and to me doesn't seem like something Jesus would do?

Well, let's think about it. This is the same Jesus who scrounged the materials, sat down and fashioned a scourge, then cleared the Temple complex with it in a protracted act of violence. The same one who will come again and slaughter all unbelievers. He also confronted religious leaders, often harshly. So I think it safe to say Yeshua could be pretty extreme whenever the situation warrants it.

The context of 1 Cor 5 is fornication and idolatry within the assembly. It isn't saying don't witness to these types of people. It is saying remove those practicing these behaviors from your assembly. This is just one of the places we are told to judge, and specifically to judge those in our assemblies. The sexually immoral, greedy, idolaters, slanderers, drunkards and swindlers are not walking with God. They have either reverted to the world, or never left it in the first place. Either way, they do not belong in the assemblies of the Most High. He mentioned "the feast" and spoke of removing leaven just before this, so that would be Pesach and unleavened bread. We are commanded that no uncircumcised should partake of this feast. Uncircumcised can mean physically for males, but more than that it refers to our heart condition. Leaven of course also can mean sin, and that list is of some of the worst violations of . So this discussion is heavy with metaphors picturing a cohesive body of believers following and communing together with God. It is also very straight forward- if there are those who are violating , get rid of them. Kick them out of the assembly.

Dan C  

So I am thinking the passage is referring to "assemblies" only? Meaning someone in your church and not people outside of your church?

[alon]

Sept 24, 2020 4:17:15 GMT -8 mystic said:

So I am thinking the passage is referring to "assemblies" only? Meaning someone in your church and not people outside of your church?

Yes, that is the context of the passage. We are to judge other believers. You'd judge with good discernment whether to admit someone to fellowship; and after they are part of your assembly you would judge their conduct if necessary to remove them from fellowship.

Dan C 

[mystic]

Yesterday while watching "Little house on the prairie" one of my very fav shows, there was the episode with Isaiah drinking himself into oblivion after the death of his son. Isaiah was kicked out of his family for his drinking problems and went back to his home town to his best friend Charles. While traveling with Charles's son [Albert] and being drunk it caused Albert to fall off the wagon and badly injure himself.

To this Charles got angry at Isaiah and told him to go away and not have anything to do with his family but Charles's daughter having compassion for Isaiah took him in and helped him recover from his drinking. Isaiah asked God to help and got over his drinking. Charles then approached Isaiah and begged for his forgiveness because Charles had abandoned his best friend when his friend had needed him the most.

That is EXACTLY how I feel every time I see a scripture like Paul saying "do not even eat with drunkards" when it comes to abandoning my friends who hasn't given their lives to God [yet]. So if I have to go against scripture then I will have to answer for it come my judgement day. I ask myself what would Jesus do in such situations, would he have cast them out or try to help them? What does God expect of me, to abandon my friends when I think they need me in their lives to try to minister to them? I think not. 

We all preach to people about loving thy neighbor as thyself and praying for our enemies and forgiving people and doing everything we can to help another e.t.c e.t.c so those scriptures really gets to me!

If we are to believe in our words when we say "God requires mercy, not sacrifice" then I think WE need to practice what we preach.

Just venting.

[alon]

You are allowing a TV show, one meant to play on your emotions to jerk your emotional chains. Paul never said not to show mercy or help someone. The context was allowing these people a voice in your assemblies; allowing them a voting membership; allowing them to represent your assembly to the people you know! And you are known by the company you keep, how much more-so a group by its members! 



I have a friend who does an outreach program for the homeless and addicts. He is good at it, because he was once homeless and an addict himself. But he is the first to tell you one of the things that makes him suited for it is he knows all the games they play to take advantage of you. He also knows the pitfalls of being drawn back into drugs and alcohol by consorting with those people. He shows compassion every day, walking with the people we don’t want to even see, helping those who have nowhere else to turn. But he also looks very hard at each person, deciding when help stops and being taken advantage of begins- because being taken advantage of uses valuable resources that could help another. He judges others daily, and he exercises good judgement. But he does not go buy a six-pac and buddy up with them. He helps clothe them, helps feed them, and is an advocate for them. He’ll shake their hands, give them a hug and all the love society no longer affords them, but he won’t go to dinner with anyone he knows is using, even if they are not homeless.



In this case, your own discernment should start with knowing the difference between a scripted TV show, no matter how cute and seemingly “Christian,” and the word of God which bears witness to the truth. Hollywood may at times seem to understand, to make a biblically based or even principles based show. But trust me, no one in Hollywood knows, nor do they want to know about biblical principles past what they need to in order to suck people into believing false doctrine, convincing people that they (the Hollywood elites) are the truly compassionate, and eventually destroying your faith. They, like the ancient gods bask in the glow of your adoration, taking what is rightfully God's on themselves.



Come to my town and you will see my friend, walking among the homeless and giving out the Bibles I buy for him by the case and mark with scriptures. Go to Hollywood and tour the mansions of the stars and you know who you won’t see? The homeless and others they say they care so much about. Look inside those mansions and you will see the "sexually immoral, greedy, idolaters, slanderers, drunkards, and swindlers." I’ll walk with my friend any day before setting down to eat in the mansion of a Hollywood personality!

You have a good heart. Don't allow it to be used to mislead you.

Dan C

[mystic]

What you've mentioned about your friend is as you know is something that's burning in me to do but Covid has now hampered that plan. I remember what you had warned me about some of the issues which would be involved in helping the homeless last time we had discussed it.

My point to helping with or associating with the friends is that if I am to try to encourage them by telling then they can come to Christ at any time and they will be forgiven and if I were to stop associating myself with them because of their lifestyle then where is "my" forgiveness?

Regarding Paul, some things he says no matter how hard I try to look at "context", I don't see it any differently. As another example you had said yourself that we ALL should become circumcised if we are to obey God's command but Paul said:

Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

That scripture seems very clear to me? 

Also there was also another scripture which I could not find at the time of this writing but he was saying that at the time you find God if you are uncircumcised then remain uncircumcised and if you are circumcised then remain circumcised. That also is is very clear to me that he is saying do not become circumcised.

[alon]

Sept 26, 2020 4:15:06 GMT -8 mystic said:

What you've mentioned about your friend is as you know is something that's burning in me to do but Covid has now hampered that plan. I remember what you had warned me about some of the issues which would be involved in helping the homeless last time we had discussed it. The homeless actually need help more now than they did before.

My point to helping with or associating with the friends is that if I am to try to encourage them by telling then they can come to Christ at any time and they will be forgiven and if I were to stop associating myself with them because of their lifestyle then where is "my" forgiveness? Being friends does not have to mean inviting them to join your assembly before they accept Yeshua, nor does it mean you have to participate in their lifestyle. Unfortunately not accepting or participating in the things they do will end some friendships because they will not accept you. Other friends may drift apart because you’re just no fun any more. That is all on them, but you are the one losing friends. This can be a lonely road we travel. But justifying participation in their activities by saying “it is to lead them to Christ” has led many a man to destruction. And even if you get them to say they accept Him, their conversion would be based on a lie and almost certainly not genuine.

Regarding Paul, some things he says no matter how hard I try to look at "context", I don't see it any differently. As another example you had said yourself that we ALL should become circumcised if we are to obey God's command but Paul said:

Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Galatians 5:2-3 (ESV) Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.


Galatians is the hardest to understand, the most misunderstood, and the most abused book in the entire Bible. The context of Galatians (the book itself) was one of the many extremist sects that had sprung up in this time was going to places where there were many new Gentile converts to the sect of the Notsarim. They did this because those raised Jews knew they were full of dung. But the main thing they were teaching was that in order to be saved, you had to go through a formal conversion to Judaism, take on the whole Torah and keep it perfectly. 



Now consider what we know about the term “circumcision.” It can mean the physical act, but more often it is used as a metaphor for those keeping Torah. That is primarily how Rav Shaul uses it here. This speaks to those who accept circumcision as part of the law saying it must be done in order to be saved. Thus the focus is shifted away from obedience to please HaShem and onto our own attempts to earn our salvation. This places us before G-d and, if it could be done would nullify the work of the Cross. It also is indicative of a lack of trust, since it says His grace is insufficient. The view here is the law as one entity made up of the sum of its parts. The law is in effect “ecahd,” a composite unity. That is why if we try to achieve justification through the law we are obligated to keep the whole law; for to break one part, you transgress the whole thing. This is why later we see:

Galatians 5:14 (ESV) For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

All the commandments are here combined to make one law. Rav Shaul is quoting from Leviticus 19:18 "You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord." 


(Much of this is taken from a teaching by Rav S)

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. See above.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Galatians 5:5-6 (ESV) For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Our true righteousness can be shown through the work of the Ruach in us, and in no other way. We must wait on the L-rd:

Psalm 37:34 (KJV) Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

“Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything” so far as salvation through trusting Yeshua is concerned:

1 Corinthians 7:19 (ESV) For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

What matters is our faithful trust in Yeshua, which is then expressed in good actions done from a loving heart. "Keeping the commandments of God." Throughout the Bible love refers not to mere feelings, but to those feelings manifest as works done in love. Our greatest example:

Romans 5:8 (ESV) but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Another example from the TNK: Deuteronomy 6:5 (ESV) You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Note we must do something: love! Love as an all consuming thing that will sacrifice all else to gain the approval of YHVH. Even the last word emphasizes this point:

“Might” H3966 מְאֹד me'ôd meh-ode' properly vehemence, that is, (with or without preposition) vehemently; by implication wholly, speedily, etc. (often with other words as an intensive or superlative; especially when repeated): - diligently, especially, exceeding (-ly), far, fast, good, great (-ly), X louder and louder, might (-ily, -y), (so) much, quickly, (so) sore, utterly, very (+ much, sore), well.

Love can only be known in actions it inspires.

That scripture seems very clear to me? Clearer now, I hope.

Also there was also another scripture which I could not find at the time of this writing but he was saying that at the time you find God if you are uncircumcised then remain uncircumcised and if you are circumcised then remain circumcised. That also is is very clear to me that he is saying do not become circumcised.

1 Corinthians 7:17-20 (ESV) Only let each person lead the life [Or each person walk in the way] that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches [assemblies]. Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.

This is a tough one. He talks about it like he might mean the physical act: “Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision.” Yet he speaks of obedience to the commandments being what counts: “For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” In this case circumcision would be used in the metaphorical sense, and one of the laws which he speaks about is that males should be circumcised.

And to really confuse things, this short passage is sandwiched into a d’rash about marriage and sexual relations in general. The main theme of this d’rash is to remain as you are and do not try to be something you are not. The overall theme of the book was divisions in the assembly at Corinth. The entire book is a series of halachic rulings.

So what do we do when there is an apparent contradiction in scripture? We go to the context of the rest of Paul’s teachings, and to the overall context of the entire Bible, and finally to Torah.

We already know Torah and indeed the rest of the Bible teaches circumcision, both physically and metaphorically (circumcision of the heart). But what about Paul? Well, unfortunately the rest of his writings are similarly difficult and arguments abound over their meanings. So in the spirit of Rav Shaul (to confuse you further), I think I’ll give you a teaching that was posted on the open net by the school (and I have their permission to post excerpts anyhow) from a teaching on this very passage (From the Israel Bible Center, Dr. Eli Lizorkin Eyzenberg):



1 Corinthians 7:17-19 (ESV) Live as You Are Called
Only let each person lead the life [Or each person walk in the way] that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. 19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

The Forgotten Rule of Paul

When asked, almost no one in the Christian world can answer this simple question: What unique rule did the Apostle Paul set in all his congregations?

In response to a letter sent by the leaders of the Corinthian congregation, Apostle Paul wrote: “… each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the congregations. Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised.” (1 Corinthians 7:17-18)

The ancient world had no concept of conversion from one religion to another. This was largely because religion did not exist as a separate category from “peoplehood” (i.e. belonging to a people). When people “converted,” they did not convert from one religion to another, but from one people group to another. Individuals, from both Israel and the Nations, were sometimes willing to fully cut ties with their communities and switch communal alliances.  Some Jews actually went through surgery that removed the signs of circumcision; while some non-Jews fully (not partially) adopted Jewish ancestral ways of life (the code word for which was “circumcision”).

The great apostle believed that both Israel and the Nations, while retaining their distinct identities, must offer joined worship to Israel’s God. In the New Covenant community of Israel, discrimination and preference between Jews and the Nations was now strictly forbidden; while the functional distinction between them was rightfully upheld. For example, even though men and women were ONE in Christ, women were still (in a very important sense) women and men were still men (Gal.3:28).

Paul’s reasoning was simple: If Gentile Christ-followers became Jews, then the God they worship would be too small. He would be the God of the Jews only. However, if Gentile Christ-followers, as the Nations, would worship Israel’s God alongside the Jews, then the grandeur of this One God would become evident to all:

Romans 3:27-31 (ESV) Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

I asked a question:

DC: My interpretation of 1 Corinthians 7:17-18 (and please tell me if I am wrong) is that a Gentile would not have the same life experiences and shared history as one raised a Jew, and vice-versa. So neither should pretend to be what they are not. However this is not to say that the Bible, a Jewish document from Genesis to Revelation should not be interpreted as a Jew of the time would understand it; nor does it mean that all believers are not responsible to keep Torah. Gentile believers sojourn with Israel now (Ex 12:49 ; Lev 24:22).
Dr E: Best I can tell we are on the same page.

As you can see, it is a complex topic. But in the end, we take it to Torah, and Rav Shaul was a Torah observant Jew, and if you claim the God of Israel and you are male, you are to be physically circumcised. Both male and female are to be metaphorically circumcised, changed in heart. Will you go to Hell if you don’t get circ’d? I don’t know, but the greater question would be, do you want to risk it?

Dan C

[mystic]

Sept 26, 2020 14:49:56 GMT -8 alon said:

Sept 26, 2020 4:15:06 GMT -8 mystic said:

What you've mentioned about your friend is as you know is something that's burning in me to do but Covid has now hampered that plan. I remember what you had warned me about some of the issues which would be involved in helping the homeless last time we had discussed it. The homeless actually need help more now than they did before.

 But justifying participation in their activities by saying “it is to lead them to Christ” has led many a man to destruction. And even if you get them to say they accept Him, their conversion would be based on a lie and almost certainly not genuine.

1 Corinthians 7:17-19 (ESV) Live as You Are Called
Only let each person lead the life [Or each person walk in the way] that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. 
As you can see, it is a complex topic. But in the end, we take it to , and Rav Shaul was a observant Jew, and if you claim the God of Israel and you are male, you are to be physically circumcised. Both male and female are to be metaphorically circumcised, changed in heart. Will you go to Hell if you don’t get circ’d? I don’t know, but the greater question would be, do you want to risk it?

Dan C

You really go all out for people Dan with all of your many efforts and research, bless you for it!

Yeah tell your friend he is one of the lucky ones getting that opportunity to do God's work. There are many people who wants to do what he is doing but just don't have the means and opportunities to do it, like myself.

I can agree about the friends part if "participating in their activities". See, whenever I should be among them I don't take part in their debauchery or get drunk myself but I understand and agree the risk and temptation is always there.

That might be the top thing Paul said which I can "totally" agree with. I think a lot of people have there favs whom they would pay most attention to. Where the NT is concerned I put my faith in John and Jesus's words. In the Bible I look mostly to Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah and King David.