Was Noah's curse the reason why Canaan was outcast?

[mystic]

I am starting yet again from the beginning, this time around I will scrutinize everything I read so please pardon the many questions I will have?

First, I am not understanding the situation with Noah and Ham, did Noah curse the land of Canaan or did he curse Ham because Ham saw him naked? If the latter, how can this be Ham's fault? Seems to me that anyone walking into a room will notice what they naturally will see so not Ham's fault. It was only because Ham had reported what he had seen to the other two that made them walk backwards into the room.

[alon]

Aug 27, 2020 4:03:07 GMT -8 mystic said:

I am starting yet again from the beginning, this time around I will scrutinize everything I read so please pardon the many questions I will have?

First, I am not understanding the situation with Noah and Ham, did Noah curse the land of Canaan or did he curse Ham because Ham saw him naked? If the latter, how can this be Ham's fault? Seems to me that anyone walking into a room will notice what they naturally will see so not Ham's fault. It was only because Ham had reported what he had seen to the other two that made them walk backwards into the room.

Genesis 9:20-27 (ESV) 20 Noah began to be a man of the soil, and he planted a vineyard.[Or Noah, a man of the soil, was the first to plant a vineyard] 21 He drank of the wine and became drunk and lay uncovered in his tent. 22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father and told his two brothers outside. 23 Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned backward, and they did not see their father's nakedness. 24 When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said,
“Cursed be Canaan;
    a servant of servants shall he be to his brothers.”
26 He also said,
“Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem;
    and let Canaan be his servant.
27 May God enlarge Japheth,
    and let him dwell in the tents of Shem,
    and let Canaan be his servant.”


Funny, I was just talking with someone about this.

The text is vague about what actually happened there, but Canaan and Ham are specifically mentioned. So both were somehow involved.

Remember, we are talking about an ancient Semitic culture here. They thought and talked a bit differently. So that Canaan was specifically mentioned as being Ham’s son while the other brothers were not mentioned until later, trying to help might indicate to the listener then that Canaan was involved, and may have even been the main perpetrator. Vs 24 says he “knew what his youngest son had done.” Calling a grandson (Canaan) a “son” is not that uncommon in scripture:

Ezra 5:1 (ESV) Now the prophets, aHaggai and bZechariah the son of Iddo, prophesied to the Jews who were in Judah and Jerusalem, in the name of the God of Israel who was over them.

Iddo Zechariah’s grandfather.

So my guess is whatever Canaan did to his grandfather, Ham caught him at it. Distressed, he told his brothers and they went in and tried to preserve as much of Noah’s dignity as they could.

Now there is a LOT of speculation on what happened, some of it pretty wild, all of it (almost all) possible. What I just told you is speculation as well; just my opinion. But it is not too wild, and not as speculative as most theories out there. But take it as what it is.



The important facts are Canaan was likely involved, probably the main perpetrator, and for his actions his line was cursed.

The important principle is that what we as fathers do can have consequences for our children reaching down through the generations. And with that in mind we must also consider that it might have been all Ham, and his curse was to know that the line of one of his children was cursed. Again, just speculating on another possibility.

Dan C

[jimmie]

You may find my explanation of this very simplistic. The key verse to my simplistic thinking is:
Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.
It appears Canaan is the youngest son of Ham. In the biblical narrative, the younger sons receive the birthright/blessing when the eldest son losses it. Witness Cain to Able then Seth, Esau to Jacob, Ruben to Joseph/Judah, Manasseh to Ephraim, Jerrbbaal’s 70 sons to Jotham, David’s brothers to David, David’s sons to Solomon, and ultimately Adam to Jesus. When the youngest son is cursed the possibility of a blessing is cut off.
Ham's actions affected not only him but his entire family right down to the youngest son.
Matt 18: 25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

[alon]

Sept 9, 2020 6:08:11 GMT -8 jimmie said:

You may find my explanation of this very simplistic. The key verse to my simplistic thinking is:
Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.
It appears Canaan is the youngest son of Ham. In the biblical narrative, the younger sons receive the birthright/blessing when the eldest son losses it. Witness Cain to Able then Seth, Esau to Jacob, Ruben to Joseph/Judah, Manasseh to Ephraim, Jerrbbaal’s 70 sons to Jotham, David’s brothers to David, David’s sons to Solomon, and ultimately Adam to Jesus. When the youngest son is cursed the possibility of a blessing is cut off.
Ham's actions affected not only him but his entire family right down to the youngest son.
Matt 18: 25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

I assume you mean the double portion and leadership of the family, since all sons received both an inheritance and a blessing. Esav in fact got the double portion, and then some as Jacob fled to live with Laban. When Jacob returned, there was a reconciliation and Jacob acknowledged him as the eldest and senior brother. But he lost the spiritual part of the blessing, that of being in the line of the Messiah and de-facto spiritual leadership. So it is not as simplistic as saying one loses and the other gains. Nor was Jacob cursed- in fact, the specific part of the blessing which he received was "I will bless those who bless thee and curse those who curse thee." So I'm having a little trouble following your logic here. Also a bit of trouble seeing the relevance of the scriptural quote from the parable of the unforgiving servant.

Dan (?) C  

[jimmie]

The blessing, leadership and double portion being removed from the firstborn and passed to younger children is what I was referring to.
I wasn’t trying to say Jacob (or any of the younger children mentioned) was cursed. Quit the opposite. He received the blessing in lieu of Esau.
I was using the quote to show how the father’s actions affected the children. i.e. they were to be sold because of the father’s debt.

Oh, I left out Er and Onan to Pharez and many others I am sure. The point is, in Cain's position there is no one to pass the blessing to because they are cursed. It is the finality of the Judgement placed on Cain that none of his children would be blessed do to his actions.

[mosheli]

Noah cursed Canaan not Ham, it is said he didn't curse Ham directly because [forgot but might have been because he was his direct offspring or because he'd been in blessing or because Ham had castrated Noah taking away his further descendants so he cursed Ham's son('descendants)?] But Dan's suggestion that Canaan may have been involved sounds good.

Canaan's name means "low down".
Noah's cursing of Canaan might have been the origin of the 3 castes systems (which quite a few nations have) and slavery systems.

The 3 theories are either:
Ham castrated Noah,
Ham sodomised Noah,
Ham just saw Noah uncovered and told his brothers.

The castration theory is likely because:
- Noah has no further recorded descendants after the Flood. A source says Ham didn't want any more brothers to divide the Earth up with.
- Some other nearby nations have the same story eg Kronos castrated Uranus.
- Place name Kanli Baba "blood stained father" nearby the Ark site.
- This explains why Noah's curse was so severe.

[jimmie]

So you think having a child cursed did not curse Ham? As I pointed out, Canaan was ham's fourth child. By this time, it was most likely evident that Noah would have no more children, thus no need for Ham to castrate him to prevent more off springs.

India has well over 3000 caste. They are loosely grouped into 5 groups; Priests, rulers, merchants, laborers, and outcastes.

There are more than 3 theories as to what occurred in Noah's tent. A forth is that Ham had a relation with his mother and Canaan was the product of that union. The main thing to remember is they are theories and all can be place right next to the theory of evolution.

The founding of Rome has quite a few parallels with the Cain and Able story, but I would not study the founding of Rome to enlighten myself about what the Bible says about Cain and Abel. There are also flood stories through out the world but the Bible contains the true story.

[mosheli]

jimmie said:
"So you think having a child cursed did not curse Ham? As I pointed out, Canaan was ham's fourth child."

I just gave the theories of others about Noah "cursing Canaan not Ham", it was not necessarily mine.
It is interesting that Ham was Noah's youngest son, and Canaan was Ham's youngest son.

I wonder if Canaan was even really a son of Ham born already then. If Canaan is the youngest then that means Ham had already begotten 3 elder brothers plus Canaan only shortly after the Flood! There were only 8 souls in the Ark. So maybe Canaan wasn't even born then? Maybe Canaan was a name Noah gave Ham?

jimmie said:
"The founding of Rome has quite a few parallels with the Cain and Able story, but I would not study the founding of Rome to enlighten myself about what the Bible says about Cain and Abel. There are also flood stories through out the world but the Bible contains the true story."

I would agree that studying the bible itself comes first before any other sources. But traditions and records of nations can secondarily also help illuminate or confirm or clarify the biblical record. Just like the bible says people can roughly know God from studying Nature/Creation. Yes there are other Flood stories etc that match the biblical stories, and some of them even have minor details that match like the sending out of the birds from the Ark. Moses may have referred to some sources in his writing of the ? These memories of other nations help to confirm that the Biblical account is true history. In the case of Genesis 9 the accounts confirm the emasculation version. I haven't seen confirmation of the other theories in the other myths.

Bible:
Noah got drunk and Ham "saw Noah uncovered" and went and told his 2 brothers. One Jewish tradition is that Ham castrated Noah. Noah's curse is pretty severe and must be some reason why. Noah has no further descendents after the Flood.

Greek:
Kronos castrated Uranus.
Kronos cursed. (Uranus & Kronos are similar to Noah & Ham in the story.)

Egyptian:
Ra was an "aged god".
Drops of blood falling from Re's p***s which he self mutilated. (Ra is similar to Noah in the story.)
Amun holds a small "scimitar" or curved knife. (Amun/Hammon father of Khuns matches Ham father of Cush.)

Iranian:
"Probably connected with the blood-offering said to have been instituted by Yima, the Haoma rite was condemned for its filthy drunkenness". (Yima is the Iranian Noah.)

Phoenician/Canaanite:
El was an old man / master of time.
El lived at SadEl at the source of the rivers.
El was helplessly drunk on 1 occasion. (El is similar to Noah in the story.)
Asheratian "Ashera of the sea" wife of El was mother of 70 gods (like the 70 nations in Genesis 10).
El castrated Shamin/Uranus. (Shamin/Uranus & El are similar to Noah & Ham in the story.)

Hittite:
Kumarbi emasculated Anus. (Anus & Kumarbis are similar to Noah & Ham in the story.)

Turkey/Armenia:
Place name Kanli Baba "blood stained father" not far from Ark site.

I'm not fluent in Hebrew,I only know alot of words but not enough to read/write/talk/listen. So someone else here would have to give the transliteration and translation of the words in the Genesis 9 account to see if it gives any help to know what really happened. Maybe also the skip code might have hidden in those verses what really happened. In the case of Abel it is plural "bloods" implying potential descendants, maybe there is a similar case in the Genesis 9 one?

It says "Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his youngest son had done to him." Sounds like he knew something had been done to him, unless he heard about it.
Noah's blessing onnly mentions Shem, Japheth and Canaan/Ham, not any Noahites.
It says "Canaan is cursed. He will be servant of servants to his brothers." He said, "Blessed be YHWH, the God of Shem. Let Canaan be his servant. May God enlarge Japheth. Let him dwell in the tents of Shem. Let Canaan be his servant." This seems like a Shem & Japheth vs Canaan/Ham since Ham didn't want any further brothers to divide the earth up between, so Noah gave Shem & Japheth more and Canaan/Ham less?

jimmie said:
"By this time, it was most likely evident that Noah would have no more children, thus no need for Ham to castrate him to prevent more off springs."
&
"There are more than 3 theories as to what occurred in Noah's tent. A forth is that Ham had a relation with his mother and Canaan was the product of that union. The main thing to remember is they are theories and all can be place right next to the theory of evolution."

Yes it might be true Noah might not have had anymore offspring anyway and that there may be "no need to" castrate him. But it is theory/speculation, and it is also/alternatively possible he didn't have anymore children because he was stopped. Yes it is theory but it has some evidence that it is possible if not probable. I don't mean any offense, the incident is shocking if true and I do imply my sympathy/identifying with Noah by saying it explains why his curse was so severe. I myself feel hurt because no wife and children yet so far.

Ham (or Canaan?) "saw Noah uncovered", not his wife. It is not described the same as Reuben and Jacob.

jimmie said:
"India has well over 3000 caste. They are loosely grouped into 5 groups; Priests, rulers, merchants, laborers, and outcastes."

Yes there are always exceptions. The Egyptians had 7 castes/classes. But there is still a tripartite castes system common to many peoples. Dumezil says such. Some examples:
Sumerian: Amelu, Mushkinu, Wardum/slaves.
Norse: Jarl, Karl, Thrall/theow.
Maori: Tangata Rangatira, Tangata Maori, slaves.
Spartan: Spartiates, Perioikoi, Helots.
Philistines: Shalisha "third" (in Bible).
Etc.
Some say the first 3 castes of the 4 Indian castes are Aryan?
Noah in Indian is called Manu. Manu had 3 sons Sama/Scherma, Chama, Prajapati/Jyapeti. Manu is associated with the Code of Manu which connects with the castes.
(Note: I am not saying that I agree with castes or slavery! Its just possible evidence of the historicity of Genesis 9 in corrupted traditions.)

Later edit added note:

I just reread the Genesis 9 verses again and see I made two mistakes.
1. Perhaps Canaan was Ham's eldest child not youngest, and was only placed 4th in Genesis 10 because of the slave to brothers curse?
2. It says Canaan a slave to his brothers (Cush, Mizraim, Phut) as well as to Shem and Japheth.