430 or 215 years in Egypt?

[mosheli]

How long were the Hebrews in Egypt between the arrival of Jacob and departure under Moses? 430 years (Massoretic) or "215" years (Septuagint)? Is there not any way to prove it once and for all? Why does Adonai allow for so long such confusion and doubts with many historical truth issues like this? Can this be resolved on the biblical side or can it only be resolved by eventually proving which dynasties Joseph and Moses were in and the length of time between the 2 dynasties?

David Rohl claims Joseph was in (11th-)12th dynasty of Egypt and Moses was (12th-)13th dynasty of Egypt, favouring a shorter period of 215 or "a little more than a 100 years". He said "You need to read what all the great Rabbis and Talmudic scholars say on the matter." What do the Rabbis and Talmud say? Are they reliable/right?

Below are the reasons why I favour a period of 430 years not "215" years.

The Massoretic text of Exodus 12:40 says 430 years in Egypt.

The Septuagint & Samaritan does't mention any "215" years, it only says 430 years in Egypt and Canaan. No ancient text except Josephus mentions any 215/220 yrs.
The "in Egypt & Canaan" might not relate to the two times from Abraham to Joseph and Joseph to Moses. Only Galatians 3 says 430 years from Abraham to Moses. In Egypt & Canaan could refer to Canaan under Egyptian sphere of influence/dominance. 1 Chronicles 7:21-24 seems to imply that some of the Hebrews were living in Canaan during the time the others were in Egypt.

Jewish sources place the Flood in 1656 am and the exodus in 2666 am, which gives a 1000 years from the flood to the exodus, which seems to match with 600 years from Abraham to Moses, and 430 years from Joseph and Moses. The Turin Papyrus gives 955 yrs from the 1st dynasty to the end of the 8th dynasty, while the Book of Sothis has 955 yrs from the 1st dyn to the 15th/16th dyn.

While the Levite genealogy only has 4 generations from Levi to Moses (Levi - Kohath - Amram - Moses), some other tribal genealogies have more generations than that such as the one from Ephraim to Joshua ("10 generations reach from Joshua back to Ephraim: Joseph, Ephraim, Beriah, Repham, Resheph, Telah, Tahan, Laadan, Ammihud, Elishama, Nun, Joshua".) The Ephraimite genealogy can not be contracted, but the Levite one could be missing generations.
Reuben Pallu Eliab Nemuel/Dathan/Abiram.
Levi Kohath Amram Moses.
Judah Perez Hezron Ram Aminadab Nahshon Salmon/(Rahab).
Zebulun Elon/Helon Eliab.
Manasseh Machir Gilead Hepher Zelopehad Mahlah.
Manasseh Machir daughter Segub Jair.
Ephraim Beriah Repham Resheph Telah Tahan Laadan Ammihud Elishama Nun Hoshea/Joshua.

Some scholar has claimed that in the genealogy of Levi to Moses in Exodus, the Hebrew particle that indicates direct son of is lacking with the begats between Levi & Kohath and between Kohath & Amram, whereas the Genesis ones are direct sons of, which implies possible gaps in the Levite genealogy? (Though a critic has said to me that it is not true?)

Joseph certainly matches 3rd-4th dynasty, Moses certainly matches (6th? &) 12th dynasty. The period between 4th dyn & 12th dyn is more likely 430 years than 215 years. Joseph 430 before Moses would be ca 1800s bc which would also fit 3rd-4th dynasty in relation to the 1st dynasty being ca 2000s bc after the Flood (& Babel?)

Genesis 15:13-16 & Acts 7:6 says foreigners in a land not theirs and serve them 400 years, which surely only fits Egypt and not also Canaan. (A land not lands.) Acts 13:17 seems to confirm this.

Josephus on one hand says "Concerning the affliction that befell the Hebrews in Egypt, during 400 yrs" "And 400 yrs did they spend under these afflictions", and on the other hand says "Concerning the interval of 220 yrs from the death of Isaac to the Exodus out of Egypt. "They left Egypt ... 430 yrs after our forefather Abraham came into Canaan, but 215 yrs only after Jacob removed into Egypt."

How many years would it take to increase from 70/72 souls who came with Jacob to 600000 who left with Moses?

Rohl having "Joseph in the (11-)12th dyn" & "Moses in the (12-)13th dyn" has Joseph & Moses too close together, plus he has Joseph too late in overall Egyptian dynastic history (while Joseph is earlier in overall Biblical history). Joseph was only 13 generations after the Flood, and it would be hard to fit 10/11 dynasties in that period, and the 1st dynasty has to come after the Flood (and after Babel ca 2000s bc?)

Some possible matches in ancient Egyptian history sources for 430 years include:
500 yrs reign god-king Geb? Shu & Geb are mentioned in the el-Arish account which is similar to the exodus story. (Shu also appears in the 3 Hermes (Set, Shu/Num, Thoth) which may correspond with the 3 reincarnations Seth, Moses, Samuel in Jewish tradition.)
450/400 years reign of Osiris?
350 yrs reign god-king Set?
300 yrs reign god-king Horus?
350 yrs chaos between demi-gods dynasty & Menes?
"8 demigods for 217 years before 15 generations for 443 years before 16th dynasty" of Syncellus is possibly similar to the biblical 215 yrs Abraham to Joseph, and 430 yrs Joseph to Moses?
Surid (3rd/4th dyn) was 300 yrs before "flood" in Masoudi.
The events in the legend of "Horus (Behdeti of Edfu) versus the adversaries of Re(- Harakhty)" are said to have taken place in the year 363 in the reign of Re-Harakhty, and this story is similar to the el-Arish account which is similar the the exodus story.

"500 years to Moses/Azrail" in a (Moslem/Arab?) tradition?

[alon]

Jul 20, 2020 16:44:31 GMT -8 mosheli said:

How long were the Hebrews in Egypt between the arrival of Jacob and departure under Moses? 430 years (Massoretic) or "215" years (Septuagint)? Is there not any way to prove it once and for all? Why does Adonai allow for so long such confusion and doubts with many historical truth issues like this? Can this be resolved on the biblical side or can it only be resolved by eventually proving which dynasties Joseph and Moses were in and the length of time between the 2 dynasties?

David Rohl claims Joseph was in (11th-)12th dynasty of Egypt and Moses was (12th-)13th dynasty of Egypt, favouring a shorter period of 215 or "a little more than a 100 years". He said "You need to read what all the great Rabbis and Talmudic scholars say on the matter." What do the Rabbis and Talmud say? Are they reliable/right?

Below are the reasons why I favour a period of 430 years not "215" years.

The Massoretic text of Exodus 12:40 says 430 years in Egypt.

The Septuagint & Samaritan does't mention any "215" years, it only says 430 years in Egypt and Canaan. No ancient text except Josephus mentions any 215/220 yrs.
The "in Egypt & Canaan" might not relate to the two times from Abraham to Joseph and Joseph to Moses. Only Galatians 3 says 430 years from Abraham to Moses. In Egypt & Canaan could refer to Canaan under Egyptian sphere of influence/dominance. 1 Chronicles 7:21-24 seems to imply that some of the Hebrews were living in Canaan during the time the others were in Egypt.

Jewish sources place the Flood in 1656 am and the exodus in 2666 am, which gives a 1000 years from the flood to the exodus, which seems to match with 600 years from Abraham to Moses, and 430 years from Joseph and Moses. The Turin Papyrus gives 955 yrs from the 1st dynasty to the end of the 8th dynasty, while the Book of Sothis has 955 yrs from the 1st dyn to the 15th/16th dyn.

While the Levite genealogy only has 4 generations from Levi to Moses (Levi - Kohath - Amram - Moses), some other tribal genealogies have more generations than that such as the one from Ephraim to Joshua ("10 generations reach from Joshua back to Ephraim: Joseph, Ephraim, Beriah, Repham, Resheph, Telah, Tahan, Laadan, Ammihud, Elishama, Nun, Joshua".) The Ephraimite genealogy can not be contracted, but the Levite one could be missing generations.
Reuben Pallu Eliab Nemuel/Dathan/Abiram.
Levi Kohath Amram Moses.
Judah Perez Hezron Ram Aminadab Nahshon Salmon/(Rahab).
Zebulun Elon/Helon Eliab.
Manasseh Machir Gilead Hepher Zelopehad Mahlah.
Manasseh Machir daughter Segub Jair.
Ephraim Beriah Repham Resheph Telah Tahan Laadan Ammihud Elishama Nun Hoshea/Joshua.

Some scholar has claimed that in the genealogy of Levi to Moses in Exodus, the Hebrew particle that indicates direct son of is lacking with the begats between Levi & Kohath and between Kohath & Amram, whereas the Genesis ones are direct sons of, which implies possible gaps in the Levite genealogy? (Though a critic has said to me that it is not true?)

Joseph certainly matches 3rd-4th dynasty, Moses certainly matches (6th? &) 12th dynasty. The period between 4th dyn & 12th dyn is more likely 430 years than 215 years. Joseph 430 before Moses would be ca 1800s bc which would also fit 3rd-4th dynasty in relation to the 1st dynasty being ca 2000s bc after the Flood (& Babel?)

Genesis 15:13-16 & Acts 7:6 says foreigners in a land not theirs and serve them 400 years, which surely only fits Egypt and not also Canaan. (A land not lands.) Acts 13:17 seems to confirm this.

Josephus on one hand says "Concerning the affliction that befell the Hebrews in Egypt, during 400 yrs" "And 400 yrs did they spend under these afflictions", and on the other hand says "Concerning the interval of 220 yrs from the death of Isaac to the Exodus out of Egypt. "They left Egypt ... 430 yrs after our forefather Abraham came into Canaan, but 215 yrs only after Jacob removed into Egypt."

How many years would it take to increase from 70/72 souls who came with Jacob to 600000 who left with Moses?

Rohl having "Joseph in the (11-)12th dyn" & "Moses in the (12-)13th dyn" has Joseph & Moses too close together, plus he has Joseph too late in overall Egyptian dynastic history (while Joseph is earlier in overall Biblical history). Joseph was only 13 generations after the Flood, and it would be hard to fit 10/11 dynasties in that period, and the 1st dynasty has to come after the Flood (and after Babel ca 2000s bc?)

Some possible matches in ancient Egyptian history sources for 430 years include:
500 yrs reign god-king Geb? Shu & Geb are mentioned in the el-Arish account which is similar to the exodus story. (Shu also appears in the 3 Hermes (Set, Shu/Num, Thoth) which may correspond with the 3 reincarnations Seth, Moses, Samuel in Jewish tradition.)
450/400 years reign of Osiris?
350 yrs reign god-king Set?
300 yrs reign god-king Horus?
350 yrs chaos between demi-gods dynasty & Menes?
"8 demigods for 217 years before 15 generations for 443 years before 16th dynasty" of Syncellus is possibly similar to the biblical 215 yrs Abraham to Joseph, and 430 yrs Joseph to Moses?
Surid (3rd/4th dyn) was 300 yrs before "flood" in Masoudi.
The events in the legend of "Horus (Behdeti of Edfu) versus the adversaries of Re(- Harakhty)" are said to have taken place in the year 363 in the reign of Re-Harakhty, and this story is similar to the el-Arish account which is similar the the exodus story.

"500 years to Moses/Azrail" in a (Moslem/Arab?) tradition?

Tough topic. And made tougher by the fact the Masoretic Text was itself an attempt to correct problems and inaccuracies that had crept into early Jewish source texts. The Septuagint is obviously an interpretation, and Greek interpretations are notoriously suspect. And since the entire New Testament is a Greek interpretation of myriad copies, irregularities abound. Thousands of source texts, most of which disagree at some point on pretty much everything. This is made worse by the blatant misinterpretations taking place, even as early as Marcion (late 1st cen to mid 2nd). I have a quote from him somewhere saying everyone else was just writing their own version of the letter to the Galatians, so he just went ahead and wrote his own. Then we have Josephus, whose writings are all suspect and who was no historian even by the standards of his own day (let alone ours). And Muslim texts and traditions are far worse than just problematic. They cannot be trusted- at all.

The net result has been to give "scholars" something to argue about for many years concerning the Exodus. I'm with you; @400 yrs. As to the population expansion, since it would have grown exponentially it could easily have been even more than is recorded in that amount of time.  

However the honest answer to your question is, I really do not know.

Dan (confused as you are) C