Any thoughts on Lunar sabbaths?

[Wavy_Wonder]

I, personally, think there is overwhelming evidence for it in scripture.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I believe the doctrine of "Lunar Sabbaths" as apposed to the weekly seventh day Sabbath is -full- of holes and is in great error....But, I welcome the opportunity to train others in the refuting of this nasty doctrine as they will probably eventually encounter it. Again, another doctrine supported by very vague and loose use of scripture.

Shalom,

Reuel

[messimom]

I am unfamiliar with lunar sabbaths as opposed to the "normal" seventh day sabbath. Any chance you'd like to expound?

Messimom

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Lunar Sabbath keepers do not keep the seventh day Sabbath as you and I do. They start the counting of their days leading to their seventh day from the beginning of the time that they personally determine is the new moon (which varies and much of the time they are not even sure of). One of the problems is that you do not get a perfect seven days with the Lunar Sabbath reckoning as there are not a perfect 28 days in a lunar month. So, basically they have to come up with nonsense such as non-days and several other silly mental gymnastics. Scripture is clear, six days you shall work and the seventh day is the Sabbath...period. They have many futile arguments, but I will wait for them to arise before I address them.

The new moon governs the moedim, but not the weekly Shabbat. Jews have been keeping the weekly shabbat since Yeshua's time without fail...it has not changed.

Shalom,

Reuel

[Wavy_Wonder]

admin said:

They start the counting of their days leading to their seventh day from the beginning of the time that they personally determine is the new moon (which varies and much of the time they are not even sure of).

Please do not make generalizations. If we make comments like this, we ought to automatically make the scriptural points that go along with them.

One of the problems is that you do not get a perfect seven days with the Lunar Sabbath reckoning as there are not a perfect 28 days in a lunar month.

This is irrelevant as an argument.

So, basically they have to come up with nonsense such as non-days and several other silly mental gymnastics.

This is not true. Some do. Not all.

Scriture is clear six, days you shall work and the seventh day is the Sabbath...period.

Based off of what count? Our pagan calendar and abitrary days chosen whithin the week? Unless you assume the sabbath can be traced back all the way to creation...

They have many futile arguments, but I will wait for them to arise before I address them.

Bold statements should have bold proof sitting right next to them.

The new moon governs the moedim, but not the weekly Shabbat. Jews have been keeping the weekly shabbat since Yeshua's time without fail...it has not changed.

The sabbath is one of the moadim. And the scriptures do not say that just the new moon governs the moadim. It just says the moon:

Genesis 1:14 And Elohim said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for moadim, and for days, and years:

Psalm 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

According to Leviticus 23, the sabbath is the first of the listed moadim.

[messimom]

Ok, as someone who has never even heard of Lunar Sabbaths as opposed to my understanding of a seventh day sabbath, I asked Reuel for his understanding of a Lunar Sabbath. He gave me his explanation and is obviously con, or against the idea of lunar sabbaths.

Can you, Wavy (ok to shorten your name when directly addressing?) be the pro(it sounds like) on this issue and give us your definition of lunar sabbath and reason why you feel it is more biblical?

Thank you guys,

Messimom

[Wavy_Wonder]

Well, the main argument (and really, most of the time, the only argument) for a saturday sabbath is that the Jews would know when it is and they would have kept track of it etc.

Scripture itself disproves any constant, proper sabbath keeping by the Jews. Lamentations 2:6 and the entire chapter of Ezekiel 20 testify of this fact.

Secondly, no scripture says the sabbath continues without interruption on a continual seventh day count. Secondly, it can be proven that the sabbath always falls upon the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of the moon.

The perfect and strongest example is Exodus 16. The sabbath was also commandment to be kept because the children of Israel were taken out of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that YHWH thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore YHWH thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Ever wonder why this has anything to do with the sabbath? Because the children of Israel exited Egypt on the 15th of Aviv, which would be a sabbath day. They were taken out of the house of bondage.

Luke 13:15 The Master then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
Luke 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

The same way Israel was delivered from their "bond" or shackles out of Egypt. I know an Arnold Bowen. He has offered a 10,000 reward for anyone who can prove a sabbath day on any other day than the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of the moon. No one has done it.

He has a couple of books that just gives overwhelming evidence for lunar sabbaths. I have access to the man and the book. I'm only touching the tip of the iceberg.

I don't know where to start. I would have to keep going and going and going. So I'm waiting for arguments against lunar sabbaths.

I'm waiting for the overwhelming proof that the 7th day of manmade calendar just so happens to be the sabbath.

We calculate YHWH's months and moadim by the moon. But when it comes to the sabbath, we look to a mandmade calendar, even though the sabbath is one of the moadim.

[Pioneer]

I came not to debate the subject, only to state the Levi's were put in charge;Nu. 3:1 ¶ These also are the generations of Aaron and Moses in the day that the LORD spake with Moses in mount Sinai.
2 And these are the names of the sons of Aaron; Nadab the firstborn, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.
3 These are the names of the sons of Aaron, the priests which were anointed, whom he consecrated to minister in the priest’s office.
4 And Nadab and Abihu died before the LORD, when they offered strange fire before the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children: and Eleazar and Ithamar ministered in the priest’s office in the sight of Aaron their father.
5 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
6 Bring the tribe of Levi near, and present them before Aaron the priest, that they may minister unto him.
7 And they shall keep his charge, and the charge of the whole congregation before the tabernacle of the congregation, to do the service of the tabernacle.
8 And they shall keep all the instruments of the tabernacle of the congregation, and the charge of the children of Israel, to do the service of the tabernacle.
9 And thou shalt give the Levites unto Aaron and to his sons: they are wholly given unto him out of the children of Israel.
10 And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest’s office: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

This being the case, they are the ones we are to look to for the proper day, then the Lord of the Sabbath knew what day was the Sabbath. Mt 12:8 "For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Someone is sowing seeds of confusion here. Over and over we are told to obey those who are in charge. When the Sanhedren establishes a different day I will use that day.

[Mark]

It's difficult to argue against a position that one doesn't understand. Wavy, Since this position is so foreign to what most of us have heard before, I think I need you to spell it out for me. I read Exodus 16 and the passages you quoted; but I still don't have the slightest grasp on what you are using as conclusive evidence. Of course, I am profoundly ignorant in astronomy. If I'm already looking in the right direction, I can sometimes pick out the "Big Dipper" (but in Oregon I rarely get the opportunity).

I'd be interested in any websites that arnold Bowen has available that teaches this theology; but offering a reward to prove a theology is nonsensical. Otherwsie we wouldn't have any such thing as Mormonism or Jehovah's Witness (within the ranks of which are some very intelligent and educated people). People will believe what they want to believe.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

"Elohim said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of sky to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the expanse of sky to give light on the earth;" and it was so. Elohim made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He also made the stars. Elohim set them in the expanse of sky to give light to the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. Elohim saw that it was good. There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day." - Beresheet (Gen.) 1:14-19

Yes, the weekly Sabbath is technically part of the Moedim, but it is not one of the seven Feasts that are governed by the new moon. The seventh day sabbath is the only exception to this as the moon was not even created on day one...it was created on day four. Therefore, the reckoning of a “Lunar Sabbath” could not be correct as the seventh day was counted from day one of creation. Of course they will tell you something like, “when the moon was created, it was created in such a phase that it coincides with our theory”….wishful thinking at best. Most of their “proof texts” are of the same caliber. There is no historical evidence (to my knowledge) that the sages nor the Rabbis of old ever reckoned the weekly shabbat to be according to the "Lunar Sabbath".

Pioneer is correct that it was the G-d given authority given the Levi'im (Levitical) priesthood to announce the moedim to the people of G-d which then (according to G'd) where to be followed.

"If there arise a matter too hard for you in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within your gates; then shall you arise, and go up to the place which YHVH your G'd shall choose; and you shall come to the Kohanim the Levites, and to the judge who shall be in those days: and you shall inquire; and they shall show you the sentence of judgment. You shall do according to the tenor of the sentence which they shall show you from that place which YHVH shall choose; and you shall observe to do according to all that they shall teach you: according to the tenor of the law which they shall teach you, and according to the judgment which they shall tell you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside from the sentence which they shall show you, to the right hand, nor to the left. The man who does presumptuously, in not listening to the Kohen who stands to minister there before YHVH your G'd, or to the judge, even that man shall die: and you shall put away the evil from Yisra'el."
- Devarim (Deut.) 17:8-12

Note: The Levites of the time (Sanhedrin) where primarily of the order of the Tz'dukim (Sadducees) whom did not believe in keeping Rabbinic Halachah as we know it today...they primarily believed in keeping just the (first five books of Moshe) and tended to render the very literally (unlike their Rabbinic counterparts).

Yeshua kept the same Sabbath as those of his day and met in the synagogue on the same day. The Sanhedrin of his day didn't change the day of Shabbat, nor has any other Sandedrin. Transgressors of this commandment regarding the Levi'im would face the death penalty if they disregarded the judgment handed down from them. Wavy and his band of "internet scholars" have no authority to change the established moedim for us nor does scripture support his/their view on this matter. No reputable scholar holds this view. G'd has used the Jewish people to not only preserve the scriptures for us, but to preserve the seventh day Sabbath. No sect of Judaism keeps or has ever kept the "Lunar Sabbath". Since the command has been given, there has always been an observant Jew keeping the seventh day Sabbath...it has never changed. The very same ones that have preserved the scriptures for us (as we have them) have also preserved the true day of Shabbat.

As I find the theology to be very destructive to G-d's people, I will not allow links to other sites teaching this doctrine. Links that are shared should be in personal messages and only by personal request.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Blake]

I've never been a proponent of the new moon sabbath, but its hard to ignore it when I find it so much in scripture.

One of the verses I regularly use to show that the sabbath is to be kept eternally also affirms the same of the new moon!


Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.


Eze 46:1 Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh towards the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

This verse shows that the new moon holds importance as well.

Amo 8:5 Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?

Amos says that the sale of corn was not allowed on the New Moon.... It seems like a sabbath to me.

[messimom]

Wavy said:

the sabbath always falls upon the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of the moon.

Blake said:

This verse shows that the new moon holds importance as well.

Amo 8:5 Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?

Amos says that the sale of corn was not allowed on the New Moon.... It seems like a sabbath to me.

If the sabbath always falls on the 8, 15, 22, and 29th days of the moon then how can it ever fall on the "new" moon. So there's a biggyback sabbath "weekend" every month with a sabbath being the 29th day and the very next day, the day of the new moon?

Or- the sabbath would have to be the 1st day of the moon right? And if it falls on the 8th and 29th, that's 8 days between sabbaths. Everything in scripture points to 7 as being a number or perfection-completion. Over and over 7 (and increments of 7) is the number whether in days, years, candles on the menorah, etc... I don't see any rational for YHVH ever making sabbaths be more than 7 days apart. How does the lunar sabbath theory reconcile this? Thank you.

Also(to anyone who can answer this), from Amos, there is obviously evidence of some sort of restriction on activities on the new moon, though maybe or maybe not to the same degree as sabbaths. I don't remember seeing any restrictions on the new moon, just some sofar blowing and worship-in . Did I miss something? Or is this a mistranslation of Amos that needs to be clarified? Thank you.

Messimom

[Chizuk Emunah]

I think there is some confusion here between Shabbat and the Rosh Hodesh. Rosh Hodesh is the moed of the New Moon, and is to be celebrated with a feast. This is completely separate from Shabbat.

*I'll post more on this later.*

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I've never been a proponent of the new moon sabbath, but its hard to ignore it when I find it so much in scripture.

One of the verses I regularly use to show that the sabbath is to be kept eternally also affirms the same of the new moon!


Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.


Eze 46:1 Thus saith the Lord YHVH; The gate of the inner court that looketh towards the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

This verse shows that the new moon holds importance as well.

Amo 8:5 Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?

Amos says that the sale of corn was not allowed on the New Moon.... It seems like a sabbath to me.

There are may references to a new moon, but not directly as it being a Sabbath. Even if the New Moon was to be a day of rest were no work was to be performed....It does not make it the same as the seventh day Sabbath. Keep in mind that the New moon is only once a month and that is not when they say their “seventh day” is. The new moon is the point at which they start counting to seven…not the seventh day. Again, their evidence is vague and non-sensical.

I don't remember seeing any restrictions on the new moon, just some sofar blowing and worship-in . Did I miss something? Or is this a mistranslation of Amos that needs to be clarified? Thank you.

There is no direct clear evidence in scripture for their claims. If it was so important and they are right, then wouldn't Adonai make a direct commandment that is clear for everyone to understand? Isn't the fact that there is so much confusion surrounding the doctrine a witness that it is not a teaching from Adonai? Even much of Christianity recognizes that the weekly seventh day as we have it is the Biblical Sabbath as described in . They just don't believe they have to keep it.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel