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Post by mystic on Feb 22, 2020 6:08:07 GMT -8
I am having a discussion with some Christians on what code of conduct they live their lives by if they believe the 10 Commandments does not apply to them. I was led to Galatians scripture.
So, can anyone explain this scripture in relation to the 10 Commandments not being valid anymore since God created the New Covenant to 'write the law into our hearts" please?
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Post by alon on Feb 22, 2020 12:31:12 GMT -8
I am having a discussion with some Christians on what code of conduct they live their lives by if they believe the 10 Commandments does not apply to them. I was led to Galatians scripture. So, can anyone explain this scripture (Galatians 5:16-25 "not under the law”) in relation to the 10 Commandments not being valid anymore since God created the New Covenant to 'write the law into our hearts" please?
This is a state of mind; our habitual thoughts, desires; the things we focus on. The carnal mind is not a passive state into which we were born. It is the state we choose to be in- an active state of mind. Romans 8:7 (ESV) For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Telling God what is righteous is an act hostile to Him. Allowing ourselves to be led by a spirit that tells us what we desire is righteous is being led by the wrong spirit! And all other such spirits are hostile to God, and have been since the fall of ha’satan. We need to learn to discern the spirits, and that starts by knowing scripture, starting with Torah. So let’s paraphrase the next vs., 18:“But if you learn to discern which Spirit to follow, then you are not in subjection to the system that results from perverting the Torah into legalism.”
In the 1st cen there was no word for legalism, which was a new concept. So Paul was left with the word for law, torah. However Galatians is mostly a polemic against the legalism that was saying you must fully convert before you can be saved. However what your friends espouse is another type of legalism, one that says “I make my own laws.” They call it being led by the Holy Spirit, but in doing so they make God to be a liar, because He, nor His Ruach can ever contradict Himself. And that includes His Torah. Vss 19-23 contrast what following the spirits of this world and following the Spirit of the Lord looks like. Pay close attention to the first thing in vs. 20, “idolatry.” These friends have become their own gods, made of themselves idols to oppose the will and wishes of the Almighty. They will tell God when and how they will worship. They will tell Him what is sin. They will take it upon themselves to do away with the parts of scripture they do not like, and to reinterpret the rest to their liking. Oh, they have a handy scapegoat in the church fathers whose teachings they follow. But that will all be striped away when they stand before the God they opposed. According to vs. 21, they will not share in His kingdom.Galatians 5:24-25 (CJB) Moreover, those who belong to the Messiah Yeshua have put their old nature to death on the stake, along with its passions and desires. Since it is through the Spirit that we have Life, let it also be through the Spirit that we order our lives day by day.
So if we belong to Yeshua we fight against the evil inclination (yetzer hara in Hebrew), crucifying it. The Greek word for crucified is stauroō:G4717 σταυρόω stauroō- to impale on the cross; figuratively, to extinguish (subdue) passion or selfishness:—crucify.
It is not the law, Torah which was nailed to the cross, it was our sins and the penalty for them. And it is to the cross we must take our yetzer hara and nail it there. All our fleshly nature. This is what is meant by:
Romans 6:3 (ESV) Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We are baptized what? “Into” Christ. And what is the Christ? He is the living word, our perfect example of the word of God. And He was a Torah observant Jew! We were therefore baptized into the very Word of the Almighty Himself, starting with His Torah. Our yetzer hara is baptized into His death, and should die there with Him. And His Spirit will never, NEVER bear witness against that!Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Feb 22, 2020 13:39:07 GMT -8
A lot for me to soak in here Dan, I asked the question if God's new Convenant was to write his commandments in our hearts then why would we still not be obligated to obey "his" commandments?
A person relied with what's below, I wish I could see a discussion between you both but:
You're thinking God literally wrote the 10 commandments on your heart?
It's more like that God gives the holy Spirit then if you listen to the Spirit then God can command you directly.
The Law of Moses was made for those who didn't have the holy Spirit yet. I like to use the analogy of a regent that rules the kingdom until the king comes of age. But once the king is on his throne then the work of the regent is finished.
If Moses is the regent and Jesus is the King. When the King is enthroned in your heart then the work of the regent is finished.
So before Jesus is enthroned in your heart; then you went to Moses' seat. Which is the regent and you obeyed God indirectly through the rules of the Law of Moses.
Matthew 23:2-3
Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
But when Jesus is enthroned in your heart then the Law proceeds from Him directly. That is you obey the Spirit which is the "River of Life" that flows from the throne.
Hebrews 4:14-16
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
So the leading of the Spirit makes the Law of Moses superfluous. The Law of Moses served it's purpose and now if you're born of the Spirit; you're coming to the throne of grace. You have access into the holiest of holies without restriction.
Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Revelation 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Isaiah 51:4
Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.
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Post by alon on Feb 22, 2020 15:05:15 GMT -8
A lot for me to soak in here Dan, I asked the question if God's new Convenant was to write his commandments in our hearts then why would we still not be obligated to obey "his" commandments? For one, as I explained above, HIS Spirit will never, ever, EVER contradict HIS Commandments! To do so would make HIM a Liar! And that can never be. So if He is writing anything on your heart, it is HIS 10 Commandments, HIS whole Torah, and HIS entire Word, the entire Bible! You are still letting these hypocrites chain you to the 10 Commandments. They are only a small part of Torah, and these men don't even want to be bound by them!A person relied with what's below, I wish I could see a discussion between you both but: I'll talk civilly with anyone who wants to honestly discuss the things of God. But I give short shrift to any who want to make HaShem out to be a liar. You're thinking God literally wrote the 10 commandments on your heart? That's a Hebraism for memorization. In English we'd say "You know them by heart."It's more like that God gives the holy Spirit then if you listen to the Spirit then God can command you directly. Oh really? So now they are like Moshe, who speaks with the Almighty face to face. Tell me, how brightly do their faces glow when they speak to you?
The Law of Moses was made for those who didn't have the holy Spirit yet. We've talked about this. The Ruach was active all through the Old Testament. The Spirit hovered above the deep at creation. It led Avraham out of Ur. It was with those who gave and those who worked in varrying degrees when they built the Mishkan, the Tabernacle. The Spirit of God wa with the Judges, and came upon Shimshon in a mighty way. It rested on the prophets, was there when Elijah confronted the priests of Ba'al. It was the SpPirit that drove Melech Dovid onto his face in repentance for the sins surrounding Bat'Sheva. And it led Miriam and Yoseph, still under OT Law into Egypt and back; and their Son under that same law to die on a Roman cross for our sins. So they would not want to try to throw out that lie before me that the Jews of the OT did not have the Holy Spirit! Not unless they are ready to be thoroughly disabused of their ignorance. I like to use the analogy of a regent that rules the kingdom until the king comes of age. He likes to appear smarter than he is. But once the king is on his throne then the work of the regent is finished. If the regent was faithful to his king, then everything he said and did was as the king would have wanted. Can God's word go against the wishes of God? Can His instructions change, whether a regent be in charge or Himself? If Moses is the regent and Jesus is the King. When the King is enthroned in your heart then the work of the regent is finished. No, it is just beginning. Because now when you read those words in Torah or the rest of the Bible you have the Holy Spirit to help guide your understanding. But you must first get your own backside out of the way! And with many of us you'd think that is where our hearts are located, those presently being discussed definitely NOT excluded! It is unreal how far some will go in order to say to the Almighty "I am my OWN god! And YOU will just have to accept that ... and let me into heaven, by the way." Right, good luck with that one.So before Jesus is enthroned in your heart; then you went to Moses' seat. Which is the regent and you obeyed God indirectly through the rules of the Law of Moses. Matthew 23:2-3 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Did they not see Yeshua was speaking to His disciples in the present tense? Did they miss the 2nd part of that, commanding them "All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do!" Are their minds so far gone they would try to use this scripture to shore up their doctrine of wantonness and rebellion? But when Jesus is enthroned in your heart then the Law proceeds from Him directly. That is you obey the Spirit which is the "River of Life" that flows from the throne. Jeremiah 17:9 (ESV) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
And this is the organ they depend on to discern between the holy and unholy spirits. And without the guideance of the words of God Himself, no less. I think they are following the wrong spirits!
Hebrews 4:14-16
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Mercy is granted when we repent, not when we habitually go our own way, doing what seems right in our own eyes.
So the leading of the Spirit makes the Law of Moses superfluous. I've shown it is foolish in the extreme to think it does. The Law of Moses served it's purpose and now if you're born of the Spirit; you're coming to the throne of grace. You have access into the holiest of holies without restriction. Grace is not license to sin. Nor does it mean everything that pops into our pea brains or black hearts is from God.Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. This we just covered yet again in a thread you answered concurrent with this one. Go there for details, but it is saying we are not under condemnation of the law, because the Spirit will lead you into all truth, which is His Torah!Revelation 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. No, sir. You are being shown the raging, muddy waters of death flowing from the pit, and that by your choice of the spirits you follow.Isaiah 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people. That word "law" is Torah, and He is saying in the end times it will go out to all the nations. His law, His instructions.
And if we are going to revisit this so called "New Covenant" again, then please, let's read it in context:
Jeremiah 31:31-34 (ESV) 31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
It is NOT a "New Covenant," it is a "REnewed covenant." The word can mean either. But it is being made with the House of Israel, not with a bunch of filthy Gentiles. That this prophecy has not yet been fully fulfilled is easily seen. Do all know HaShem? Have all memorized Torah? Do we still have teachers of scripture? Has all iniquity been forgiven? Does He not yet remember some of the peoples sins until they are judged?
It is clear in both the Old and New Testaments that God's laws, His instructions are still in force. We just have to remove the scales of centuries of lies and brainwashing so well laid out by the church fathers. And for many, like your friends there, this will mean getting over their own desire to go beyond even what those men laid out for them doctrinally, setting themselves up as their own gods and the arbiters of their own salvation; or destruction, as the case may be.
Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Feb 23, 2020 5:21:43 GMT -8
One thing I admire about you more than everything else Dan is that you scrutinize every word and line of scripture. So it's the same old deal I think that most Christians put their stock in the NT and pick and choose from the Bible only what they think applies to them. They also tend to twist the scriptures and info in the NT to blend in with their own thinking or agenda, I believe that's the bottom line.
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Post by alon on Feb 23, 2020 9:29:53 GMT -8
One thing I admire about you more than everything else Dan is that you scrutinize every word and line of scripture. So it's the same old deal I think that most Christians put their stock in the NT and pick and choose from the Bible only what they think applies to them. They also tend to twist the scriptures and info in the NT to blend in with their own thinking or agenda, I believe that's the bottom line.
Dan C |
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