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Post by mystic on Feb 3, 2020 4:26:53 GMT -8
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Post by alon on Feb 3, 2020 5:28:23 GMT -8
Nietzsche said God is dead. He wrote it several times. Does that mean He is?time.com/2842044/gay-christians/ says God loves homosexual Christians, and that it is ok to be gay. Does that mean it's true?Prof. Curry of Texas A&M says “In order to be equal, in order to be liberated, some white people might have to die.” Is that true?Give me a controversial topic and I'll show you someone who wrote it is true. Jews push the Noachide idea because they see Gentles who keep  as apropriating their heritage. But it isn't theirs, it is God's, and what did He command?Exodus 12:49 (ESV) "There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”
You are a believer, grafted onto the rootstalk of Israel. That makes you the stranger, the ger, the foreigner who sojourns with them. And that makes you responsible for .Go with what the Bible says, not what those with an agenda say about any topic. Show me where in the Bible it says anyone born Gentile only has to keep the Noachide laws, and that is what I'll do. But it is Rabbinic tradition that says this, not the Bible. And since Rabbinic Judaism was formed 200-300 yrs after Yeshua, who they rejected, they are wrong.
In our parashot readings this year we are looking at actual commandments in , not the popular list of 613 of Rabbinical Judaism. We are not bound by the precepts of Rabbinical Judaism. If God said do it, we do. If it is just some Rabbinical interpretation, we pass that through the fire and see if it holds up. If you want my views on apropriating Jewish heritage, here's a better read tan the ones listed in this thread so far:theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/4806/12-3-parshah-vayechi-lived
Dan C
edit: There's a lot more to than the 10 Commandments as well. We all need to be well versed enough in and the scriptures to a.) know where we stand on observance, and b.) be able to defend or explain that stance to others.
This is all just my opinion, but I think I can adequately defend it biblically. If I can't do that, then all the opinions of the Rabbis, sages, commentators, et all mean nothing. If I can then their quotes just ice the cake.
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Post by mystic on Feb 4, 2020 5:17:21 GMT -8
Exodus 12:49 (ESV) "There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”
You are a believer, grafted onto the rootstalk of Israel. That makes you the stranger, the ger, the foreigner who sojourns with them. And that makes you responsible for .Go with what the Bible says, not what those with an agenda say about any topic. Show me where in the Bible it says anyone born Gentile only has to keep the Noachide laws, and that is what I'll do. But it is Rabbinic tradition that says this, not the Bible. And since Rabbinic Judaism was formed 200-300 yrs after Yeshua, who they rejected, they are wrong. Right, what I have seen is that the Noahide is for ALL men since it was given to Noah's children but what I was questioning is why the need for the Noahide in the first place since we got the 10 commandments? Next, a lot of Christians believe those words "the stranger among you" relates only to those foreigners who were among the Israelites at that time. So in other words if you are not from Israel then that does not apply to you. Also, I had thought Rabbinic Judaism was formed at the time of the Exodus. I had viewed a series on the Talmud last month on the Chabad site where the Rabbi was explaining that the Rabbi's of that time were given instructions to teach the people the correct ways to live within the laws? |
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Post by alon on Feb 4, 2020 7:36:58 GMT -8
Right, what I have seen is that the Noahide is for ALL men since it was given to Noah's children but what I was questioning is why the need for the Noahide in the first place since we got the 10 commandments? Much better question: we have the entire Bible, why limit ourselves to either the Noachide Laws or the 10 Commandments?Next, a lot of Christians believe those words "the stranger among you" relates only to those foreigners who were among the Israelites at that time. So in other words if you are not from Israel then that does not apply to you. The term "ger" can mean a stranger as in one passing through, a temporary resident alien, a permanent resident alien, or a convert to Judaism. Later (post exilic) the terms ger toshav and ger tsadik were added:
* ger toshav- a Noachide, one who agrees to keep the 7 laws of Noah
* ger tsadik- one who converts and takes on the whole
However in both scripture and in the Talmud, usually the toshav or tsadik is dropped and it just says "ger." Speaking of the Talmud, that is where the list of Noachide Laws is found. They may be derived from scripture, and certainly they don't contradict scripture. But they not listed anywhere in the Bible. This is a list made by post-exhilic Rabbonim as they formed their new religion and ways of interpreting scripture at about the same time the Christians were formulating their new religion- complete with a different interpretation of scripture. Meanwhile those pesky Notsarim just kept keeping , interpreting scripture faithfully, and thus became a thorn in the flesh of both groups.
But what did God say: Exodus 12:49 (ESV) There shall be one law (תּוֹרָה tôrâh) for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”
Not part of a law, not a list made by either God, nor by any sage, rabbi, or other man. And not just some Jews or some Gentiles, but everyone who wished to sojourn with the Israel God established, not the ones who wanted to establish something different (Jew or Gentile). Everyone will one day stand before Almighty God and be held accountable to His : John 5:45 (ESV) Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope.The reference to Moses is a reference to .
So it doesn't matter if you live in Israel or not, or if those people back then lived in Israel, they and you are responsible for , God's instructions for holy living before Himself. Especially if you call yourself a Messianic believer, otherwise you make God out to be a liar. Christians also are responsible for the entire , whether they think so or not. Observant Jews also are, obviously. Also, I had thought Rabbinic Judaism was formed at the time of the Exodus. I had viewed a series on the Talmud last month on the Chabad site where the Rabbi was explaining that the Rabbi's of that time were given instructions to teach the people the correct ways to live within the laws? What is typically termed Rabbinic Judaism is what was formed after the Roman diaspora. The Sadducees, who were tied to the Tmple (then destroyed) and held power because of Roman support were all but gone. The Pharisees were the most numerous sect by far at the time of Yeshua. They numbered way, way over half the nation. So in the diaspora they became the most influential group. Rabbonim came from their sect, and it was the Rabbonim who, fearing the loss of Jewish identity brought the nation together under one banner, sort of an umbrella group. This all occurred roughly from the 3rd-5th centuries CE. They codified the Mishnah then started the Gemara. As they splintered yet again into sects, some held these writings, which make up the Talmud as being equal to scripture. This is why on the Orthodox sites you will see the Noachide Laws portrayed as scriptural.
The Orthodox may say these things were given to Moses at Sinai, but they were not. The Mishnah is the Oral Tradition. It changed from time to time and place to place. No set of instructions, regardless how comprehensive can cover every contingency. So the early prophets, sages, and priests made halachic rulings on the minutiae of observance. These were specific rulings on how people in different times and places were to keep . There are also debates in the Mishnah; so if you have two men arguing a point of law, can both be right? Codifying the Mishanh and setting it in stone as equal to is therefore ridiculous.
The Mishnah was exactly as you said "instructions to teach the people the correct ways to live within the laws." It was instructions for those things could not cover. Take for example a farmer who wants to go into town to attend shul. Too far to walk, so he has to drive a cart with his family in it. But many sects say we are not supposed to drive on Shabbat. Halachically an exception may be made for him. He may also have to check on livestock, giving them feed and water. And if he has stock about to give birth, he must check on them in case they are in distress. It would be cruel to leave such an animal to die due to complications in their delivery. Again, halachically an exception may be made. Now bring that forward to our day, and we have the rules against driving internal combustion engines on Shabbat. We need another variance, but the Talmud is now written in stone, and it says not to make a spark on the Sabbath. That originally meant striking a spark to make a fire, but now it is applied to every kind of spark, including in an engine. So what to do? Well, he just does like many Jews and drives within a block or two, parks and walks the rest of the way. I think even the Jews realize something is wrong here.
Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Feb 7, 2020 14:50:46 GMT -8
I keep running into people both Christians and Jews who maintain God's command of Sabbath keeping is only for the Jews and that the 'foreigner or stranger among you' is referring only to those who were among the Israelites.
Can you tell me what main scripture there is which specifically includes the words "all peoples" or similar please?
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Post by jimmie on Feb 7, 2020 15:14:37 GMT -8
Deuteronomy 11:24 Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be.
Jews were/are dispersed among all the nations therefore we are among them.
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Post by jimmie on Feb 7, 2020 15:17:27 GMT -8
Exodus 12:49 (ESV) "There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”
Please compare with: Deuteronomy 14:21 Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk. Leviticus 17:15 And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean. Deuteronomy 23:20 Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it. Deuteronomy 17:15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother. Deuteronomy 25:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her. |
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Post by alon on Feb 7, 2020 16:50:04 GMT -8
jimmie, in order to really compare these verses we must go back to the original language: Deuteronomy 14:21a (ESV) “You shall not eat anything that has died naturally. You may give it to the sojourner (גֵּר gêr) who is within your towns (gates שַׁעַר shaʻar), that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner (נׇכְרִי nokrîy). For you are a people holy to the Lord your God.
The term here is the “stranger within your gates.” Court was held within the city gates, and both justice and mercy were dispensed there. Giving food to the poor who gathered there would be a mitzvah. And since the term ger can refer to one not actually living among the Jews, but just passing through, giving them this meet would be a mitzvzh, since they do eat it. God’s laws are practical. Look at:Deuteronomy 14:29 (ESV) And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance with you, and the sojourner (גֵּר gêr), the fatherless, and the widow, who are within your towns, shall come and eat and be filled, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands that you do.
We are not to leave these people to go hungry. Note in verse 21 it also uses a different term for foreigner, נׇכְרִי nokrîy. So what in our English translations looks like the same word is actually a clear distinction. You can sell it to a true foreigner; one not residing or passing through Israel as one doing business there. But more like a caravan, which stays to the trade routes and stays at the inns. They really would have little interaction with the Hebrew people as a whole.Leviticus 17:15 (ESV) And every person who eats what dies of itself or what is torn by beasts, whether he is a native or a sojourner (גֵּר gêr), shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water and be unclean until the evening; then he shall be clean.
So if a ger, or for some reason a Jewish person does eat of it, he must ritually purify himself.Deuteronomy 23:20a (ESV) You may charge a foreigner (נׇכְרִי nokrîy) interest, but you may not charge your brother interest,
Again we see the term foreigner is not the same as a sojourner. Deuteronomy 17:15 (ESV) you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner (אִנׇכְרִי ישׁ nokrîyʼîysh) over you, who is not your brother.
אִנׇכְרִי ישׁ nokrîyʼîysh, a strange or foreign man cannot be appointed king over God’s people.Deuteronomy 25:5 (ESV) “If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead man shall not be married outside the family to a stranger (אִישׁ זוּר îysh zûwr). Her husband's brother shall go in to her and take her as his wife and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her.
אִישׁ זוּר îysh zûwr, litterally “man strange.” This refers to a strange Hebrew, one not of your immediate family. It’s the law of the Levarite Marriage, so it rules out anyone not a brother. I also should point out that even if we did not see these distinctions in the Hebrew, these instructions are still in . Therefore there is no conflict. However when we consider these distinctions we get a cleared picture, and any confusion is cleared up as well.Dan (maybe a little confused) C
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Post by alon on Feb 7, 2020 17:47:28 GMT -8
I keep running into people both Christians and Jews who maintain God's command of Sabbath keeping is only for the Jews What can I tell you? Both are wrong. God set the Sabbath, and He never changed it. Nor did He give anyone else authority to change it. The Rabbis could make rulings on halacha, and that could change. But they never were supposed to change anything in itself.
and that the 'foreigner or stranger among you' is referring only to those who were among the Israelites. Well, yeah, that's what I have been saying. The ger IS referring to those who live among the Israelis. And Exodus 12:49 clearly says the same law applies to them as to the native born Jew. And in the end, we all will be held accountable under the law unless we accept Jesus and walk in obedience to Him.
Can you tell me what main scripture there is which specifically includes the words "all peoples" or similar please? All peoples or everyone is implied. |
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Post by mystic on Feb 8, 2020 5:50:57 GMT -8
I think the heart of the problem is since God did not say 'to all peoples' when giving the 10 commandments this is the excuse they have not to obey it.
For me personally, these scriptures gives me the right to obey God's commands:
Isaiah 45:22 – “Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”
Isaiah 56:3 Let no foreigner who is bound to the Lord say, “The Lord will surely exclude me from his people.”
Isaiah 56:6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord......
In those scriptures he did not say "to the foreigners among you"
Also good to note that Abraham was not an Israelite!
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Post by alon on Feb 8, 2020 9:16:04 GMT -8
I think the heart of the problem is since God did not say 'to all peoples' when giving the 10 commandments this is the excuse they have not to obey it. For me personally, these scriptures gives me the right to obey God's commands: Isaiah 45:22 – “Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.” Isaiah 56:3 Let no foreigner who is bound to the Lord say, “The Lord will surely exclude me from his people.” Isaiah 56:6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord...... In those scriptures he did not say "to the foreigners among you" Also good to note that Abraham was not an Israelite!
This year we've embarked on a project to dig out the actual commandments in our parashot. We are finding so far there are more than we thought, and more than the ancient Rabonim listed in the 613 so far (though to be fair these will be given in later chapters as clear commandments). However we also have to acknowledge there is more to observance than just obeying the positive and negative commandments (thou shalt and shalt not's). There are examples, poignant stories, principles and concepts, illustrations- a whole range of things to help us walk in perfection before a holy God. I think the ancients would agree, we are responsible for these things as well.
I think there is a danger in observance that we lose sight of the fact all these exist throughout scripture. True is our base, and all these must be in agreement with and must not contradict . However they do give yet more insights. And some, like Is 45:22 above are themselves clear commandments, repeating those of but clearly directing every person on earth to turn to El Elohe Yisroel to be saved. What is clearly implied in is here clearly stated by one of the major prophets. And this is true throughout scripture, all the way through and including the "New Testament" where all is made even more clear.
Good job finding these!
Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Feb 8, 2020 15:36:42 GMT -8
Thanks Dan, that gives me confidence that I am on the right track. Whenever I post here on a topic, it's usually because my research hadn't produced a final answer for me so I lean on your more experienced and knowledgeable guys to come up with something. In this case however, after posting here I searched and searched scriptures and only came up with those results last night and early this morning I think. Last night I also found this great video on the Sabbath which I think pretty much covers everything for any non-Sabbath keeping Christian to understand: video redacted- while the video had some really excellent information in it, it taught only 10 Commandment law/obedience. We here teach obedience to all ; all the laws, principles, concepts, and lessons therein. It teaches against the Feasts of the Lord, which we keep and teach the extreme importance thereof. And lastly they direct viewers to churches which, while Sabbath keeping probably do not teach the tenets laid out in our statement of faith here. I really debated about removing this one, but in the end I had to:
7. We advocate Observance as part of our walk with Messiah Yeshua, since He is our example and was Observant, along with the disciples. ...
11. The posting of other URL'S and websites is permissable as long as they are not Anti-Semitic or Anti-Judaic in nature, they do not advocate anything un-biblical in observance, are not anti- or anti-Messianic, or as described in rule #2. Please don't post links to websites that teach theology such as found on 7th-Day Adventists, Baptist, Catholic, Morman, ect. websites. Posting links to other Messianic Jewish websites are permitted, as long as those websites don't violate the forum statements of faith and objectionable doctrine statements.
13. There are certain doctrines that (although we may discuss to expose what the Moderators consider to be Biblical error) will not be allowed to be freely promoted here at the forum. Any doctrine or teaching that is not consistent with the following statement of faith shouldn't be promoted at Ahavat Elohim Forums.
*We believe the (The Law) is holy, just, and good as the apostle Sha'ul (Paul) has stated (Romans 7:12). The is profitable for instruction in righteousness (2Timothy 3:16), not as a means of justification, but as a path of sanctification. The we have today is the same given to Moshe (Moses) by the mouth of El Shaddai at Mount Sinai. The will not be changed nor another given by God.
Dan |
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Post by alon on Feb 8, 2020 19:18:58 GMT -8
Thanks Dan, that gives me confidence that I am on the right track. I'd say you definitely are here on this one, as long as you are keeping the entire and not just the 10 Commandments. Next weeks parashah gets through those as well. Something to look forward to! Whenever I post here on a topic, it's usually because my research hadn't produced a final answer for me so I lean on your more experienced and knowledgeable guys to come up with something. You seem to be getting better with your research. Keep at it! In this case however, after posting here I searched and searched scriptures and only came up with those results last night and early this morning I think.  |
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Post by mystic on Feb 10, 2020 4:27:41 GMT -8
Ok, noted on the link posting issue. To me, the important thing in that video is it shows it was the Church that changed God's Holy day and how they did it and this is what I would like non-sabbath keeping christians to realize.
You know, I was so focused on the 10 Commandments all this time that I had not looked deeply into the other commandments of the Bible which I will do now, thanks for the reminder!
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Post by alon on Feb 10, 2020 11:34:00 GMT -8
Ok, noted on the link posting issue. To me, the important thing in that video is it shows it was the Church that changed God's Holy day and how they did it and this is what I would like non-sabbath keeping christians to realize. You know, I was so focused on the 10 Commandments all this time that I had not looked deeply into the other commandments of the Bible which I will do now, thanks for the reminder!
All that information is here in the archives, so if you were to go back and start studying here you'd eventually get that information. You can do a search as well, but it would probably take some effort.
This year we are focusing primarily on what is actually commanded in . So following my weekly parasha here would be a good (and very easy) place to start. As always, I put mine up just like everyone else, so you can comment, agree or disagree, or ask questions if you want. You can also add a commandment if you think I missed one (I actually found such a case once myself, and had to go back and edit- I'm far from perfect). Most weeks I put up the updated list of verses we've found in a separate post.
I also stress there is much more we are responsible for in than the commandments. HaShem's instructions are mostly gentle, taught in large part by by example. But where it is very important, where disobedience carries severe consequences both for us and others, He cares enough to give us commandments. These are so important that many of those famous 613 mitzvoth of Rabbinical Judaism are actually fences around commandments. And there is nothing wrong with fences per se. Their problem is two-fold: one they got a bit carried away, being too restrictive, controling; and two they set these fences in stone, giving them the same weight as commandments. God's is immutable, unchangeable. He was smart enough to make laws that never cause problems taken in the context of history. Fences belong more to the realm of halacha. Made by man, they were meant also to be changed if problems arose. And they do cause problems today, even among observant Jews. A good example is making a spark.
Originally this applied to making a spark to build a fire, which is prohibited on Shabbat. But internal combustion engines make sparks, so the proscription is applied to driving. Today with people living more scattered and farther from a synagogue this is a problem. In rural communities it is a much greater problem, as distances to a synagogue may be really great. My wife grew up in Nottingham and London, UK. She tells of people driving to within a couple of blocks of synagogue, then walking the rest of the way, even in these cities. Where I live where it is about 30 miles between often very small towns (about the distance a man on a good horse would ride in a day), and can be well over 100 miles between a sizable town or city to the next. You can see the problem. Even observant Jews ignore this so called "law" here as well. And by "very small towns" I mean a post office and small store, grain elevator, less that a dozen people, and usually one paved road. Not many synagogues in those places. For Messianics, if we couldn't drive long distances no one could attend synagogues, congregate for the feasts, etc.
So this year is a sort of "return to the basics" time for us. We can discuss placing a fence on a commandment if anyone wants, as long as done in the context of suggestion. No one here other than R Reuel has the authority to make a binding fence, even on the forum. An example is the rule on not teaching how to say the covenant name of the Most High. But outside the forum, that would only apply if you were a member of his congregation.
At any rate, we've just started in Exodus, so going back and reading all the parashot won't be too much trouble. I'd suggest keeping up on the weekly parashah as well. The commandments are repeated throughout anyhow. Kind of like in school, when a teacher or professor says something more than once, you should sit up and take note. There is a reckoning (in that case a test), and you will be responsible for what was said. Also HaShem tightened some commands as
Dan C
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- there are 70 faces to 
