Aviv Interpretation for Moedim. Right or Wrong?

[Eliora]

The holiday dates are actually posted online, so it's not like I do much in the way of my own calculations either... I do my best to understand how the calculations are made and stuff, but I don't actually do them myself. Just so you know.

[Prodigal Girl]

I really believe this: that the "greater Jewish community" will begin to embrace the messianic people, and believers in general, when the church itself repents of its sinful ways, and comes back to , specifically, the first and second greatest commandments. It is not the finer points of the calendar that have kept and which continue to keep them away. It is the lack of obedience to these greatest commandments. If we were all to do these, we could not drive people away if we tried. We are sometimes I think a bit too self-conscious about how we look to the Jewish community, when we should be looking at how we look to G-d. It is by our love, that we are to stand out and draw others.

[Eliora]

Prodigal Girl,
I definitely agree with you. Even if there's some confusion on the calendar, as long as you are loving God with all your heart and loving your neighbor as yourself, it's not going to be much of an issue - and certainly not to the point of driving people away.

We should all do what we believe while helping our brothers and sisters to do what they believe. There is seldom a problem with that.

[ruth2]

Shalom
Id like to (humbly) add my thoughts to this discussion.
I, like most gentiles coming to began keeping Yahs feasts according to the Rabbinic dating created by Hillel II, just because it was what was done. But I started looking for Rosh Kodesh (innocently enough.... just because I could tell via scripture I should be able to see it on the first day of the biblical month) and noticed... hey, for some reason the "new moon" isn't always when the Jewish calendar says it should be. Sometimes I saw it before, sometimes it wasn't visible yet. Which to my dismay meant if I followed the Rabbinic dates I sometimes (MOST the time in my 9 yrs of keeping feasts this way) would not be keeping them by the count Yah gave us to use. So, He says, "Meet with Me for a Holy Convocation on the 14th of the first month" yet, if I kept the date with my Rabbinic brothers, Id keep it on the 12th (according to Yahs count) or the 16th or the 11th, or what ever... but not on the day He said was His appointed time.
Yet these are HIS Feasts, His Days to determine (not "Jewish holidays").
That bothered me.
See, I didn't leave, come out of, and turn away from all I was raised in... Didn't take ridicule, harassment and shun from my own family, just to follow something man made again... or to do what was "convenient". I could have stayed where I was before I "came out" for that. (Im not saying those who keep His Days according to Hillels calendar have not "come out"... we all have different steps He takes us through, different things He teaches us first, and different pace He takes us to them... this was just a first one for my family)
So, I began to watch and to study more... wanting to be sure I was honoring Him as He calls us too. I wanted to be sure that if I was going to"go against the grain" I knew I could stand on why I was willing to do so. My husband and I studied it over and over. From the noticing of Rosh Kodesh being off, and studying further we could see that abiv had something to do with it too... so again, we studied out as much as we could to understand what this meant.... and came to the conclusion that the way Yah commanded His calendars first day of the first month of the year of each year is determined is by the sighting of the first Rosh Kodesh when abiv is seen and will be ready to be harvested with in 2 weeks.

We came to the conclusion that there was no way to be sure you were keeping His Feasts on the right day unless you go by the sighting of the Rosh Kodesh AND the Abiv. (and as on of the other posters said, the Jewish leaders are acknowledging that this is the correct way, and want to return to it, and will, once the Sanheidren are set up again... but until then they go by Hillel as it is what is currently "sanctified"..... by what...???hummmm?)

In the most simple terms of why it MUST be a combination of Abiv being in the field and Rosh Kodesh sighted together to be considered the first month of the year is because you cannot fulfill the commands to bring the first fruits of the harvest to the temple on the day after the Sabbath during the week of Unleavened Bread unless the fields are abiv. (Lev 23:4 - 16) If the first Rosh Kodesh after the 12th month does not have fields ready to harvest with in 2 weeks time, you can not fulfill Yahs commands concerning the first fruits in Lev 23;10-11. No first fruits ready, no ability to offer it. Its impossible. So, you must add the 13th month then, regardless of whether the Rabbinic/Hillel calendar says its the 1st month of a new year or not.

Granted, the temple is not yet standing, so, "who cares". No one is taking the offering of first fruits to the temple anyway. Why not just go by what the Rabbinic Calendar says so as not to "rock the boat".
I personally believe Yah cares. Its HIS appointed time and so therefore I choose to celebrate it on the day that by the best of my personal ability and the knowledge He has given me that He has declared it to be.
No one is perfect, no one can be 100% certain of their interpretation of scripture... But I can say I have been as diligent as I know to be and to search the matter it out through His word, in hopes that I can stand on its instruction and not just go with mans instruction. And when Yeshua returns, He will certainly set it all straight...one way or another. But even if we can not be 100% sure about every position we take, I do believe we will stand and have to give an account for the knowledge He gave us, and what we chose to do with it.
It can be a hard stand to take;.... especially when you have already been ridiculed by your bio family first and then are later belittled by your believing keeping brothers and sisters for doing so... but its a stand I feel we have searched out so thoroughly that its a "hit" Id rather take now from my brothers, than later, from my Father.
I do want to say that this isn't something my husband and I looked at one time and came to a conclusion on. Its something we studied over and over, many years as the first of the year came again and we knew we could possibly again be doing things at a different time than some of those in our congregation.
Also, I am not someone who holds to "two house" theology or dogma... since that seemed to be "two silly ideas held by those "off people" attitude on the board here.
I believe.... who cares! If you are a "lost tribe"come back to THE faith of our Fathers and our Fathers , Praise Yah... If you are a gentile who is grabbing hold of a Jews Tzitzit and saying, "teach me His Ways.... I know all I have inherited from my fathers are lies and worthlessness" Praise Yah!
Either way, the end result is the same.... you are one who upholds the and has faith in Yeshua..... why waist time with searching out genealogies.... your fruit should be the same, and your actions now is far more important than a lineage you hope to have.... again, when He comes, He will put us all where we belong!

Shalom, Shalom
Ruth2 (aka Alisha)

[Eliora]

Thanks, Ruth, for that testimony. I am keeping the Aviv calendar, but you gave me some stuff to think about - specifically, the stuff about bringing the firstfruits. I'm sure I heard that when I started keeping the Aviv calendar, but I have forgotten it since then. Thanks!

Just letting you know you have my support and encouragement for keeping the mo'edim this way.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom chaverim,

I really wanted to continue this discussion that I started, but because of a lack of time I may not be able to respond to this thread as I would like. For the time being, since we don't seem to have too many people studied up on this subject to debate against it, I would like to leave everyone with a link to an article that will help expose this misled doctrine and much of the misunderstanding surrounding it. I would also like to address a few of the comments that were made:

It has also been explained to me (by a traditional Jew, just so you know) that the Rabbanites *want* go back to the old method of determining the calendar, if only they had the Sanhedrin to decree it.

This is not necessarily true and I am suspect of this unamed "traditional Jew" that speaks for all of Judaism on this issue...as I have not found the above claim that was made to be true with traditional Judaism.

All whom are interested in being educated on this subject, please read the following article:

Is The "Aviv Barley" A Valid Way To Determine The Moedim?

Let's not fool ourselves, this issue is a major point of contention and division in many Messianic communities. And, the Jewish people in general don't want to touch this Kariate doctrine with a ten-foot pole. This false teaching that would cause a Jewish person to celebrate the Moedim on different dates (sometimes a month difference) as compared to the overwhelming majority of Judaism, and thus being in conflict with 99.999% of the commonwealth of Yisrael (as the Kariates are), is in fact one of the stumbling blocks for traditional Jews whom would consider coming to a faith in Yeshua Messiah or fellowshiping with a Messianic Jewish congregation. The scriptures make it clear that the commonwealth of Yisrael were to celebrate the moedim in concert.

Those whom cause division in this area should be kept accountable. Until the Kariates came along (a fairly recent occurance) Judaism was (and mostly still is) celebrating the Moedim, the Feasts of Adonai, in unity. Yeshua and His talmidim (disciples) always celebrated the moedim in concert with the commonwealth of Yisrael and was in unity with them in this regard. But, these whom come to change dates and seasons, those whom have no authority in Yisrael, would cause divisions and occasions for stumbling. The Essenes, the group of Jews whom in the 1st century created their own independent calendar were completely cut off from the commonwealth of Yisrael, and eventually ceased to exist all together.

"Now I beg you, brothers, look out for those who are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and turn away from them." - Romans 16:17

Please read the article.

Shalom aleychem,

Rav Reuel

[Eliora]

I read your article and let me say I was genuinely *wishing* that I could find something in it to convince me to go back to the Rabbanite calendar. I do wish I didn't observe the holidays differently from most people. It would make my life slightly easier. But I have to go with what I believe to be right. If I valued unity over doing what God says, how could I have ever come out of the Christian church, which says Shabbat is on Sunday, the Biblical holidays have been done away with, and Christmas and Easter have taken their place?

I was not hiding the identity of the traditional Jew who explained Judaism's position on this. I just thought it was irrelevant. The Jew in question is my father-in-law, who is .

The idea behind the calendar is, people were originally (in Yeshua's day) observing the Moedim according to the Aviv barley and the new moon sightings. When the Jews went into diaspora though, it was not in the days of instant global communication, so Rabbi Hillel II created a fixed calendar so that Jews in far-away countries could easily observe the holidays. The new moons were calculated using the best astronomy of the time, but over the past couple millenia, that has gotten off by about two days. In Yeshua's day, the Aviv barley was important for determining when to add a leap month. But because crop ripening is somewhat unpredictable, the Jews basically said it would happen an average of every so often, and that's how you get the beginning of years. Rabbi Hillel II's calendar was fixed in the 4th century CE.

None of this is any secret. It's all readily available information - just google "rabbi hillel calendar."

As for wanting to switch it back, well, the purpose was because of the diaspora combined with lack of instant global communication. They had a great reason for instituting this calendar, but the reasons are no longer valid. So it only makes sense that they would want to switch it back. The problem is the lack of a Sanhedrin to decree it so. That's why it all boils down to whether you think we need a Sanhedrin to decree it (which you, Reuel, clearly do), or whether you're comfortable just observing the original calendar without a decree.

A couple of comments on what you've said... I don't know if the original calendar would present a stumblingblock to traditional Jews who want to come back to the faith, but my answer is, let's accomodate people of both opinions. For example, I celebrated Yom Teruah two days later than most Jews, and I celebrated it as Yom Teruah, not as new year's, which I believe is in the spring. Nevertheless, I went to and participated in a Rosh HaShanah service, and even baked the round challah for it! And then a few days ago, I went to the congregation's Yom Kippur breaking the fast service (and baked another challah for that). Such things are entirely doable, and I think the respect should go both ways. Even if we do our personal observances when we think is right, there is no reason to break fellowship with our congregations.

There is no reason to have such division over small points like these. Calendar differences affect 7 days out of the year... are 7 days in a year REALLY enough of a problem to say that people of one opinion can't fellowship with people from the other opinion? Are we as Messianic believers that childish, really?? If so, getting the calendar right is the least of our problems.

[Mark]

theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=feasts&action=display&thread=496

[Velvela]

If I did not have the Internet, I would have no way of knowing how the barley is doing in Yisra'el. I would only know how it is doing right here.

I live in a barley-growing area. It was aviv in September. It was harvested last week. But I don't think for one minute that I should be observing Pesach right now..........

What's a new moon? It is usually too cloudy to see such here.

If, by following the Rabbincal calendar, I'm a bit 'off', then it isn't so much 'off ... and all on my ownsome' than I'd be without it. So, I'm thankful for it. New Moon is new moon all over the globe, whether or not I can personally see it. And when the barley is meant to start ripening in the centre of the world, so be it. Whatever the climate of the place I am living, and whatever the climate in Yisra'el this particular year.

So I just feel kind of 'thank you, calendar-makers' - because goodness knows where I'd be in working out the year without them.

[jimmie]

This is related to the side discussion of Abib in Blood Moons.