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Post by alon on Jul 2, 2019 9:11:21 GMT -8
Faith is not feeling, but an action verb. It implies we must do something.
Habakkuk 2:4 (ESV) “Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith.
This righteous person is the one who truly lives and acts in accordance with justice:
צדיק tsaddîyq; just:—just, lawful, righteous (man).
אמונה emunah; literally firmness; figuratively security; morally fidelity:—faith(-ful, -ly, -ness, (man)), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.
The verse is a contrast this between one who is steadfast in justice with tone who is reckless and prideful. Hebrews 10 speaks of this concept:
Hebrews 10:38-39 “My just one will live out of pistis/emunah [i.e., steadfast reliability]; and if he draws back [i.e., is not steadfastly reliable], then My soul will not take pleasure in him. But we are not of those who draw back… but rather those of pistis/emunah [i.e., who are indeed steadfastly reliable].”
The Greek equivalent of emunah is pistis:
πίστις pístis, pis'-tis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
The above scripture contrasts God’s attitude toward those with emunah and those who don’t. English translations give the impression that trusting and believing is all that is required to be regarded as virtuous by HaShem. But the Hebrew and even the Greek are far different meanings. Habakkuk 2:4b (the last part) could be better translated “The person of justice lives in steadfast reliability.”
This give a much different understanding to “faith.”
Hebrews 11:1 (ESV) Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
A better understanding might be:
Hebrews 11:1 (DNC) Now steadfast reliability is the assurance of things hoped for, the proof (or proving) of things not seen.
ἔλεγχος élenchos, el'-eng-khos; proof, conviction:—evidence, reproof.
So our faith does require a steadfastness that produces works:
James 2:17 (NASB) Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead [or dead by its own standards], being by itself.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 2, 2019 20:07:59 GMT -8
I wonder if people occasionally confuse conviction with faith? I'm thinking about the feeling aspect. Conviction tends to be strongly felt I think, but when I think of faithful people, there's a constancy and stability in highly emotionally or anxiety provoking situations. They feel, but they are really secure in knowing their limits somehow. Those kind of people maybe don't act as much, but when they do, they end up getting more accomplished than the rest of us put together.
Consider disabled people for example. I think maybe we have to have a broader definition of action sometimes. People who suffer well are the ones I think of in my life as faithful. There's also a calming effect in difficult situations that faith can produce I think. One person who doesn't fight or flight, but can have the wherewithal to think before acting can completely change a volatile of panick-prone situation for the better without really doing much of anything. I think maybe it's acting, but not in fear or anxiety that I'm thinking of. There's a stability.
Conviction on the other hand feels so strongly, that you have to act, but you act with self- control still because it's a determination in faith maybe?
It's just interesting to me because I'm trying to figure out where emotions do fit in so I know better what to do with them. Its helping me to consider possible opposites.
Faith - fear/anxiety
Conviction - impulsivity/reaction
I think it's about a sense of control that comes from G-d that distinguishes what's G-dly from what's not in both cases maybe?
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Post by alon on Jul 2, 2019 20:28:29 GMT -8
I wonder if people occasionally confuse conviction with faith? I'm thinking about the feeling aspect. Conviction tends to be strongly felt I think, but when I think of faithful people, there's a constancy and stability in highly emotionally or anxiety provoking situations. They feel, but they are really secure in knowing their limits somehow. Those kind of people maybe don't act as much, but when they do, they end up getting more accomplished than the rest of us put together. Consider disabled people for example. I think maybe we have to have a broader definition of action sometimes. People who suffer well are the ones I think of in my life as faithful. There's also a calming effect in difficult situations that faith can produce I think. One person who doesn't fight or flight, but can have the wherewithal to think before acting can completely change a volatile of panick-prone situation for the better without really doing much of anything. I think maybe it's acting, but not in fear that I'm thinking of. Conviction on the other hand feels so strongly, that you have to act, but you act in faith maybe? It's just interesting to me because I'm trying to figure out where emotions do fit in so I know better what to do with them.
Dan (guess my secret's out-I'marailer) C |
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Post by jimmie on Jul 3, 2019 14:26:38 GMT -8
Faith from the Latin “fides” meaning to trust. My American Heritage Dictionary lists the following synonyms for faith(ful): loyal, true, constant, steadfast, staunch, resolute, devoted, and trustworthy. It offers two basic definitions:
1. A confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
Unfortunately today when one hears the word "faith" they think of definition 2 instead of 1.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 6, 2019 6:19:50 GMT -8
Here's an example of how I can get confused with conviction, emotion, and what to do with them when I feel strongly sometimes.
Breweries are a huge social activity around where I live. I don't enjoy them, but my husband likes to have a beer and enjoys the sitting relaxing a bit outside while he drinks it. They try to make them kind of family friendly, at least the ones he goes to. They're comfortable and have pretty outdoor environments, and they are everywhere. They're just a part of the life and culture.
I very rarely go with him, but have went a couple of times just to sit with him while he gets a beer. I don't know exactly why, but I get intensely angry every time I go. I don't get angry at him, but at the place and the whole idea of it. I also get really annoyed at some of the people. No one was out of control or anything, so I've had a really hard time figuring out why I get so angry.
I think there is some valid conviction to my anger, but I have a hard time distinguishing that between prideful judgment. I think I'm mad because we generally haven't figured out something better to do with our free time as middle aged adults in my area. I'm mad at all the stereotypes I see that people are buying into; an idea of someone they want to be that glorifies what's wrong in our society while they do it.
I'm angry about how well a business can do just by selling beer, and I'm angry there's so few options for the rest of us to do around here because that's all there seems to be. It's like why do we need this, another, and another of the same again?
I think I just shouldn't be there, and this is the underlying problem. Yet, I hate doing that to my husband, and he's really not doing anything wrong. He's not drunk and acting foolish. I don't get in a tizzy over him having a beer at home or at dinners. It's the place that irritates me, and I don't know exactly why. Actually, it's me that it brings out the worst in - in terms of my own judgment even when I intentionally try to refuse that.
Maybe it's just a culture clash kind of problem because there's is so few options that don't involve alcohol and obnoxious music for families and spiritually mindful people to enjoy. I get really bothered by adults who look and act like they don't want to be adults. (someone there had a shirt that read "not adulting today"). People trying to escape their role in life while involving their kids in it is some indefinable ironic wrong to me somehow, and I just seem to see it at family-friendly breweries.
My husband doesn't do that. He has a beer and moves on with his day, but I seem to see that glamorized immaturity in a lot of middle age adult people. For some reason it kind of all meets at the breweries trying to be family friendly for me. I think I have less judgment for bars than these places because they aren't trying to blur the lines and appeal to the masses on a more socially acceptable level.
Anyway, I'm just trying to tease out the emotions and what is happening. What to keep, what to get rid of. I just know it's an almost visceral response that makes it hard for me to understand all that's involved.
I personally feel that if there's even one person that has an alcohol problem, then no one else where they have to be should be drinking either. Why make life harder on each other over a drink? Don't even mention it and don't go or do what they can't. That's just an example of what I feel is a good conviction, so maybe it's the idea of people profiting so well so easily through hoses that dispense beer. Something just bothers me about how easy it is to make money like that. They dont even have to sell food. I think it has to be somehow exploitive even if we can choose not to be there.
I don't know, but there's lots of stuff going on emotionally in this. I need to deal with getting rid of whatever's prideful. I just don't know exactly what's happening. I don't know how to distinguish and separate what's founded on conviction and what's crossing the line into pride because I feel so strongly emotionally over it.
I guess I just shouldn't go, but I feel bad for my husband. He really isn't doing anything wrong, and I don't know exactly what my problem is. It feels like one more division I'm creating between us, and he's being judged even though I don't think he's doing anything wrong. I don't like feeling so proud and judgmental, but apparently I am. The problem is that it's based on feelings that I can't seem to manage even in an attempt not to be proud or judgmental.
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Post by alon on Jul 6, 2019 12:32:16 GMT -8
That's a tough one. I see nothing wrong with a beer after work to unwind. I used to limit myself to 2 because I had alcohol issues when I was younger. As long as they aren't causing you or others trouble. Not knowing the atmosphere of the breweries firsthand I can't comment on them. However I can say my wife and I used to go to a local tavern and eat. They had hands down the best burgers and fries in the region! And really, as taverns went it wasn't a bad place. But even though I couldn't drink any more because of my meds, I still had a check in my spirit. It came to a head when I had to deal with the demons in my life (which I've talked about here before) and I stoped going. I can't rationally tell you why, but it was the right thing to do. So if you feel a check there my advice is heed it. But if you think it is just emotions based, then going every once in a while to be with your husband is probably. If unsure, pray about it and err on the side of its being a spiritual check. My advice.
Us guys tend to get in a rut when it comes to just relaxing. Especially in an area where there are few options. And having a beer is a lot more relaxing (and a lot less work) than fishing. So I don't know what to tell you about helping him find another way to relax. But if it truly irritates you then being there will probably prove more divisive than not being there. But keep looking. Maybe you can find an alternative.
WIsh you well.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Jul 8, 2019 14:44:54 GMT -8
Elizabeth,
I am going out on a limb here. If I counted right you made 6 statements justifying your husband's actions in going to breweries. This has a hint of the "Illusory Truth Effect". This is when something is believed to be true only because it is often repeated. Like I said I am out on a limb here. Also, I am a person who has only tasted beer twice in my life time. I avoid establishments that serve intoxication drink when I can. I live in a county where it is illegal to sell it.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 8, 2019 15:51:03 GMT -8
Elizabeth, I am going out on a limb here. If I counted right you made 6 statements justifying your husband's actions in going to breweries. This has a hint of the "Illusory Truth Effect". This is when something is believed to be true only because it is often repeated. Like I said I am out on a limb here. Also, I am a person who has only tasted beer twice in my life time. I avoid establishments that serve intoxication drink when I can. I live in a county where it is illegal to sell it. I think I do have conflicting feelings about it. I guess I really don't think he's doing something wrong, but I personally get really defensive about these places on account of people who suffer with alcoholism. I can't say I'm for prohibition though, so it's kind of strange for me to figure out what's my issue. I just can't help feeling judgmental, but I don't get irritated at restersunts that serve alcohol. It's the idea of that being your sole service somehow, but somehow I'm not being fair because If I'm honest, I don't get so irritated with wineries. It's just I know there's people who couldn't go into that place without coming out a different person. They wouldn't want to go in, but at the same time threy would have a hard time driving past it. That just makes me really mad, but I don't think I'm being fair putting that all on a brewery so there's more. I also don't like them positioning themselves as family-friendly even though I know not everyone who drinks destroys their family, but there's enough kids living in alcoholic families that I just feel weird about the idea of mixing the two concepts together. Under all of it, theres some thing about our culture in it that's getting to me. I don't get so touchy in Europe and they drink around kids a lot there. But there better about respecting age and it's not just about the alcohol in my experience.. Generally people handle their alcohol better there and it really is still about family when it's family. Meanwhile, I'm sure there's a ton of functional alcoholism. I don't know. I think its tapping into my feelings about consumerism and trends generally. Meanwhile, my husband just wants s beer. ( poor guy)  Anyway, I don't see how I could fairly put all that on my husband or any one person or type of business. I just don't like the ideas it seems to be tapping into in my mind somehow and think they're not all fair. I'll probably not go with him except maybe just to sit outside with him. Last couple times I went inside. But you know what, he said he's going to stop drinking beer because of health issues so maybe I should help him by trying to move things more in the direction you described Jimmie. It seems strange all this came up at once as I've never asked him to stop drinking and all this started coming up for me about the time he decided that. Strange I just noticed it. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 10, 2019 9:11:48 GMT -8
I really think emotional control for believers is fundamentally about faith and that my thoughts were initially at least right. I just learned, or learned it more thoroughly, in prayer. However, because I didn't have enough faith in G-d to do His job and recognize my own indebtedness to Him having done so much for me, my emotions start confusing things. Then I start getting prideful toward others as my emotions blind me to the truth that the only difference between me and any unbeliever is Yeshua. That's it, I have zero ground to witness to anyone from but our mutual need - Him, and He loves. That's my common ground for the sake of others. It's not what I know or think I know. It's not going to be arguing for me. It's really going to have to be about Him because i don't know where to start anyway.
So I'm glad He's working this out with me because I don't want to cause problems between Him and anyone else. Meanwhile, there I was so sure of myself while acting (or feeling) in faithlessness. It's just a warped scenario that was playing out in my emotions and attitude. I wanted to share that because I did get an answer and understanding.
Also, I'm just letting people know I'm not on here much because it encourages a harshness in me (based on my own weakness) in terms of arguing. Arguing is fine, but for me it kind of capitalizes on a weakness that makes me too sure of myself and less thoughtful of others, which is pretty much the opposite of what I am being called to do. I think it was distracting me in an effort to reassure myself on here because so much is up in the air in my life. But that's the nature of faith, and confronting the long, unpredictable haul of fighting on behalf of people just because you know G-d is there even though you don't know the outcome of it all is something I need to come to terms with because it is the nature of our faith. We are intercessors, and I think if we don't understand how hard that really is, we're not really doing it. Either you fight your own self or you have to endure in pure hope because there's nothing visible to go on. He knows, and I just put my hope in Him and sometimes I pray against my own self just because that's how weak I am emotionally. That's what those who seem hopeless to me need, the only thing I can do if He gives me nothing else or more to do, and I'm starting to get it.
I think G-d gives me good thoughts and understanding, but I need to work on how I express that to the ones it matters the most to in faith by waiting for guidance instead of being anxious about the how, when, and what if. If you can't act, you can pray, and that should be enough for me to be able to have hope and regard for anyone to not let emotions have an adverse impact on my own sense of self and/or selfishness.
its true G-d is Judge, but G-d wants to Judge in mercy. That's where I am finding my place. I can give Him that opportunity through His grace on me, if I learn what He is trying to teach me. I can really do something for Him if I do what He says, and that's what all of this has ultimately been about for me so I believe He is really helping me in all this. He really loves and protects people, and if what I have to share is going to accomplish what He wants it to for my sake, there's something with emotions He is trying to work out with me. I think He has protected me and others while trying to work this all out because I do have a sense of urgency, fear, and desperation about this. I have strong emotions and I think that's good, but it's how to have them while not letting them become a distraction or obstacle for you or the one who needs to hear from you. That's about faith I think. Trusting Him enough not to be overcome by the emotions of how great the need or reality of what we're doing or dealing with or the threats and accusations we have to fight continually. There a more productive way to fight than arguing, and it's through faith.
Witnessing is a scary and very personal business to me, which is good but should be somehow different than just fear, uncertainty, and anxiety on my part. I think that's what He's helping me deal with. It's really bizarre and precious, but bizarre, when someone shares the truth with another because of the gravity of what you're dealing with and the intimacy it requires. It's not natural in that way, but I think that's how it has to be. You really have to die to self and give it all to G-d. Somehow how emotions impact that is vital for the sake of whoever He's using you to reach. I think it may be a make or break kind of factor.
Basically arguing isn't good for my ego because I think it's a facade of faith it was producing in me that is expressed in harshness and self-confidence that distances me from people instead of reaches out to them. Arguing just seems to be how I interact on the board generally so I think I am called away from it to focus more on people in my daily life, lose the harshness, and connect on a simpler, but deeper level as a witness. G-d is profoundly interesting, but I can't keep up. I can't argue my own way into faith. All I do is eventually get too proud that way. I think focusing on other people and Him in relation to them and the truth He's already showed me instead of reassuring myself and my own understanding and arguments is where He wants me to work on growing at this point.
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Post by jimmie on Sept 10, 2019 15:01:11 GMT -8
A few scriptures regarding arguing/disputing.
Acts 9:29
And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him.
Acts 15:2
When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
Acts 15:7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Acts 17:17
Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
Acts 19:8
And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
Philippians 2:14
Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Arguing/disputing can be productive or counter productive depending upon the rules of engagement. Arguing/disputing has basically two meanings. 1 to debate or discuss a subject or 2 to question the truth of validity of something.
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Post by alon on Sept 10, 2019 17:21:56 GMT -8
A few scriptures regarding arguing/disputing. Acts 9:29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. Acts 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. Acts 17:17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. Philippians 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: Arguing/disputing can be productive or counter productive depending upon the rules of engagement. Arguing/disputing has basically two meanings. 1 to debate or discuss a subject or 2 to question the truth of validity of something.
Sorry you don't feel you can be on here much Elizabeth. We'll miss you. But I certainly understand since I have to curb my own impulses here and in person with people. Drop in from time to time to let us know how you are doing.
jimmie, good verses!
Dan C |
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Post by rakovsky on Sept 27, 2019 20:49:16 GMT -8
Arguing can be OK for a bit when it is dispassionate and people are sharing opposite views and can convince each other.
When they get into personal insults and acrimony, it goes south and is acrimonious.
Peace.
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 29, 2019 8:47:52 GMT -8
I agree. I think we have to talk differently with unbelievers or less  - pursuant believers than we do to each other though. I feel called to be a bit more strait forward with fellow Messianic believers than unbelievers or Christian believers. I don't compromise on the truth. I just want to remember the fragility of the situation. That's where I'm trying to tone things down, and and focus more on patience and a more long-term witness. Listening more without defensiveness, just being someone they can talk to, while looking for opportunity with G-d guiding me instead of shutting them down. How I talk on here impacts my approach or attitude toward people in my everyday life, but I don't think it's what they need. It pushes them away. I'm just trying to engage more with others based on truth, but in love and hope instead of defensiveness and making sure I'm understood. That's not how G-d reached me, so why I thought that's the way to help anyone else I'm not sure except that at some point it just became about me and making my point instead of that person and G-d. |
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- there are 70 faces to 
