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Post by mystic on Jun 27, 2019 2:46:40 GMT -8
Please explain all of this to me guys. A lot of Christians say there is no need for the 10 commandments anymore since Jesus fulfilled the 10 commandments, I don't get it.
Also what's the deal with the New Covenant, where was this made, in the OT or NT?
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Post by jimmie on Jun 27, 2019 11:59:41 GMT -8
The following is most concise explaination of the new covenant:
Jer. 31:31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
The only difference between the old and new is the location. The old is on tables of stone while the new in on your heart.
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Post by alon on Jun 27, 2019 13:33:40 GMT -8
Please explain all of this to me guys. A lot of Christians say there is no need for the 10 commandments anymore since Jesus fulfilled the 10 commandments, I don't get it. That's a new one on me. I've never heard a Christian say that. But they might as well since if they can void even one part of  then they can void the whole thing. They are wrong of course (see Matthew 5:18 below). First off, it’s a Renewed Covenant, not a New Covenant. Chadashah can mean either new or renewed, and contextually renewed fits better. Jeremiah 31:31-34 (ESV) 31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
I am probably in the minority in thinking this is an end time prophecy and not applicable to us today. To write something on one’s heart is a Hebrew idiom for memorizing it. Who here can quote for me Gen 5 in the original Hebrew? No? How about Lev 3? So much for memorizing His Law, . Do we still teach? Do we tell each other to know God? Is all iniquity forgiven? Just what in that passage says this prophecy was given for our time? Because this passage is the only verse in the TNK to use the phrase New/Renewed Covenant it is said to be a proof text. My problem with this thinking is we are taking an English translation and building an interpretation of a Hebrew text. In the Kethuvim shel Shaliachim the passage is referenced in Hebrews 8: Hebrews 8:8-12 (KJV) 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
That’s all well and good, but if you are going to use this to bolster the claim it’s for today, you have to use it all: Hebrews 8:13 (KJV) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 8:13 (YLT) in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old [is] nigh disappearing.
Hebrews 8:13 (ESV) In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
We might as well shut down and call it quits! The old covenant is now obsolete! But we can’t just stop where it is convenient to make a point. If 8-12 is telling us there is now a new covenant, then 13 is saying the old is obsolete. I say this all can happen only in the end times, after the Millineal reign. But we know has not passed away: Matthew 5:18 (YLT) for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.
God has always renewed the covenant with His people after we’ve broken it. He always makes a way. That is the Good News, that He has now made a way for all men, before and since Yeshua to be reconciled to Himself. The shed blood of Yeshua is the covenant renewed with all men. Luke 22:20 (ESV) And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
Covenant STRONGS NT 1242: διαθήκη diathēkē:
primarily signifies "a disposition of property by will or otherwise." In its use in the Sept., it is the rendering of a Hebrew word meaning a "covenant" or agreement (from a verb signifying "to cut or divide," in allusion to a sacrificial custom in connection with "covenant-making," e.g., Gen 15:10, "divided" Jer 34:18, 19). In contradistinction to the English word "covenant" (lit., "a coming together"), which signifies a mutual undertaking between two parties or more, each binding himself to fulfill obligations, it does not in itself contain the idea of joint obligation, it mostly signifies an obligation undertaken by a single person. For instance, in Gal 3:17 it is used as an alternative to a "promise" (vv. 16-18). God enjoined upon Abraham the rite of circumcision, but His promise to Abraham, here called a "covenant," was not conditional upon the observance of circumcision, though a penalty attached to its non-observance.
In the Greek sense it means a "testament," a legal document. The problem is a legal document may be amended by the courts. It can be changed by earthly authority. However note it's a "rendering of a Hebrew word meaning a covenant." The word is "brit," covenant," and "chadashah," renewed. Covenants cannot be rendered null by any earthly authority. This is a good thing, because your salvific security rests on this covenant. A covenant may be added to if all parties agree, or it may be renewed. But no man can change it without God's consent. Good luck with that since He said in both the TNK and the Renewed Covenant He does not change! The Covenant with His people Israel was renewed with His self sacrificial death and resurrection. The covenant renewed is just the old covenant with an eternal guarantee. The OT saints always had that guarantee in faith, now they had it in fact, as do we. Dan (my take, again not the popular one, but there you have it) C |
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Post by jimmie on Jun 27, 2019 14:27:48 GMT -8
Hebrews 8:13 (KJV) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Doesn't this occur every time someone is saved. The old covenant, which was broken by the sinner - thus requiring the sinner's death - is decayed away, waxed old and vanished away. In its' place the new or renewed, as you like to say, covenant is placed upon the ex-sinner's heart. The ex-sinner now lives out God's law because it is in his heart. The law being written on the heart entails much more than brute memorization.
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Post by alon on Jun 27, 2019 15:00:53 GMT -8
Hebrews 8:13 (KJV) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Doesn't this occur every time someone is saved. The old covenant, which was broken by the sinner - thus requiring the sinner's death - is decayed away, waxed old and vanished away. In its' place the new or renewed, as you like to say, covenant is placed upon the ex-sinner's heart. The ex-sinner now lives out God's law because it is in his heart. The law being written on the heart entails much more than brute memorization. Wow, “brute memorization.” Is that anything like its being written on stone? If it is placed on our hearts by God, then we not only will know , but we’ll understand it more and better than we can ever imagine. So yes, it does entail more. But no, this does not happen every time a person is saved. New believers have a lot to learn, and few even of the oldest ever really understand . And the only difference in now and 3000 yrs ago is a.) they understood better than we do, and b.) many at that time displayed the kind of faith that few today even come close to. The ex-sinner can only know what sin is if he knows . I’ve never seen anyone walk away from an altar call knowing what to do. In fact, even those raised in church have questions- a LOT of questions! Most churches arrange for some kind of counseling to help new believers get started. In Messianic Judaism it requires even more for most people. I still have questions at times. Hearts may be changed today, but ever it was so since Adam! All through the Bible God deals with our heart condition. Like everything else this is not a “New Testament” concept. I’ll say it again, there is nothing “new” in the “New Testament.” Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Jun 28, 2019 3:07:29 GMT -8
I think Christians got this from:
New Testament data lead to the conclusion that the law of Moses (with all of its components — including the Sabbath) has been abrogated.
Paul affirmed that the “law of commandments” was abolished “through the cross” (Eph. 2:14ff). Similarly, the “bond written in ordinances” (which contained such things as feast days, sabbaths, etc.) was taken out of the way, having been nailed to the cross (Col. 2:14-16).
Christians are under a new law, “the law of the Christ.” (Galatians 6:2) The former Law covenant given through Moses to Israel came to an end when Jesus’ death fulfilled it. (Romans 10:4; Ephesians 2:15) Did the commandment about keeping the Sabbath also come to an end? Yes. After saying that “we have been discharged from the Law,” Paul went on to refer to one of the Ten Commandments. (Romans 7:6, 7) So the Ten Commandments—including the Sabbath law—are part of the Law that came to an end. God’s worshippers, therefore, are no longer required to observe a weekly Sabbath.
I don't get what Paul's messages are, was he a supporter of the 10 commandments and Sabbath or not?
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Post by jimmie on Jun 28, 2019 6:50:28 GMT -8
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Since Jesus clearly states the "sabbath was made for man", it is not an ordinance against us, thus the Sabbath is still in full effect.
Here is the ordnance that is against us:
Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
It requires our death if we defile the Sabbath. Our death is what was nailed to the cross not the Sabbath or any other law of God/Jesus.
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Post by alon on Jun 28, 2019 11:35:05 GMT -8
Ephesians 2:14 (ESV) For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Paul is speaking of the fact Jew and Gentile are being brought together by Yeshua. This occurs in a discourse about salvation. Not one word is said about the law, and particularly about its being abolished. Christians repeatedly take scriptures out of context and build false doctrines on them. And worse, they will take something like this and throw it out and if we do not read it and think about what is said we can be suckered into their false taechings. Colossians 2:13-16 (ESV) And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the [demonic] rulers and authorities and put them to open  , by triumphing over them in [the cross] Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.And so again if we just do my favorie thing, that is READ IT IN CONTEXT, we can debunk almost every Christian doctrine. It’s more clear when you read the whole passage, but even adding just vs. 13 to this we can see Paul is talking about what was done for us with salvation. God made us alive in Him, not dead in our trespasses and sins. It is our sins that were nailed to the cross, NOT His . And as we discussed previously in another thread, that last verse was addressed to new believers, many of them Gentiles who were being brought into the fold. They were changing the days they worshiped, changing their festivals to this new identity they now share in Yeshua- and their former friends and relatives did not like it! Just as you have experienced lately. It is encouragement to take up these new days and not bow to the pressure to return to the old ways. Galatians 6:2 (ESV) Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Even taken out of context, what in that says the OT law is abolished? Think about it, did this occur only in the NT? People in the OT didn’t help each other? Did Ruth not help Naomi? Or did Avraham not help Lot? Was the Ark built by Noah, or did his family help each other? This has been the law from the beginning. The law of Christ is ! Romans 10:4 (ESV) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
In King James language (which set the way for many contemporary translations) particularly, but even today the “end” of something can be a goal. “The end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” clearly uses “end” in this way, and unless you are brainwashed by years of church training that is the only honest way to read it. Christ is the goal of the Law. The entire OT was written as a prelude to His arrival. The whole point of the entire Bible is that we may be saved in the Christ. Ephesians 2:15 (ESV) by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
This one requires not only reading in context, but a bit of thought. The context is Jew and Gentile being reconciled in the Christ. So already Christianity has a problem. However on the surface it does still sound like the law is abolished. Since we know Paul kept , we need to dig further to expose the lie. And one word stood out to me in this, “ordinances.” So I looked it up. Since English borrows this term directly from the Greek, you’ll recognize it: dogma- Thayers Greek Lexicon, STRONGS NT 1378: δόγμα
δόγμα, -τος, τό, an opinion, a judgment, doctrine, decree, ordinance;This refers to those pesky doctrines of men! Not ! But since English has this term with all the meanings and nuances of the Greek term used in the source documents, why not use that term, “dogma?” The answer is abundantly clear. The church fathers wanted to make their own dogmas based on this very scripture condemning such things. And this effort is passed to us in contemporary translations. Not all man-made judgements were condemned, mind you. Only false ones- exactly like the church fathers intentionally wanted to make here! And the lie has been passed down by centuries of church dogma, now believed by millions. This is exactly the kind of thing we are called out of. But to get out, we have to read these passages and think. The truth is thee, it just requires some digging to get to it. Since was never in part or whole abolished, then the commandment of the Sabbath was not abolished either. This is a favorite tactic of Christians. They like to throw a whole list of these verses, all taken out of context and/or their meanings perverted in an effort to overwhelm you. In writing all you must do is read them in context, think about what is said, and then reply. In person, I simply stop them and say “Let’s deal with those one at a time.” However often they are shouting the list as they run out the door or into their car. They know from past experience they are about to take a spiritual butt-whippin’ if they stay. If they do this, don’t get upset. Our purpose is not to win an argument, but to win hearts and minds. If they refuse to listen, and if they want to claim such a cheap “victory,” then it is their loss. That, not “loss” of an argument is what bothers me. They chose to lose. Romans 7:6-7 (ESV) But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”All you have to do here is slow down and engage your mind to see the problem. Paul in the last verse extols the law, so how can the first one mean he wants to do away with it? Of course it doesn’t. Remember, this is a translation into English from the pagan Greek, itself a translation from the original Hebrew. So meanings can get a little muddled. But if we take it in the context of all Pal’s writings we can see “we are released from the law” actually means we are released from the penalty of the law, not the law itself. Paul never said anything against , in part or its entirety. He was a observant Jew. However he is very difficult even for other Jews of his time to understand: 2 Peter 3:15b-16 (ESV) just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
This is why the church fathers loved Paul so much. He is difficult to understand, and they meant to use his words to do exactly what is said here, “which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction.” And they intended fully to take you down to destruction with themselves! Let’s be clear, the Christian who is throwing these things at you believes what he is saying. Centuries of dogma have had their effect, and it can be extremely difficult for someone to even look at the truth. That is why Christian friends have used the “hit and run” tactic similar to what you see in this writeup you quote from. They want to bury us in these verses thrown out all at once, hoping we won’t bother to look them all up, to think about them then get back to them with a reply! Many a Christian has, to their dismay gotten an email with my reply similar to this. Whether they opened the email, or read and thought about what I said is up to them. I do what I can and then my conscience is clear. My concern remains; I don’t condemn them. But I do condemn those church fathers who were sold out to ha’satan and came up with these doctrines of Hell, wrapped up in a religion that allowed excesses, that held power in the hands of a few, and where a donation bought your way out of the most egregious sins. And those doctrines are, to varying degrees still at work in Christianity today. Not like it was before the Reformation and the time just after, thankfully. But still it is there. Again, you need to step away from it all and become well enough grounded in your own beliefs that you can answer these things yourself. But you’ll never get there if torn between Christianity and Orthodox Judaism, trying to put Messianic Judaism somewhere in between. That you are confused by them is evident in that you ask these same things over and over. We are outside the orbits of both these false religions. Not that neither has anything good- they do. And we hold to those things. But they like everything are passed through the fire many times. And by far most, especially Christian doctrines are burnt on the first pass. Dan C edit: Sorry jimmie, I clicked on the wrong post and quoted you first. I meant to quote mystic, then break it all down. But I did so in a separate document because it's easier for me to see what I'm doing and make changes. So when I posted I didn't read the quote and see I got it wrong. All that to say I messed up and quoted you. Again, sorry. I did remove the quote at the first.
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Post by mystic on Jun 29, 2019 3:51:52 GMT -8
Again, you need to step away from it all and become well enough grounded in your own beliefs that you can answer these things yourself. But you’ll never get there if torn between Christianity and Orthodox Judaism, trying to put Messianic Judaism somewhere in between. That you are confused by them is evident in that you ask these same things over and over. We are outside the orbits of both these false religions. Not that neither has anything good- they do. And we hold to those things. But they like everything are passed through the fire many times. And by far most, especially Christian doctrines are burnt on the first pass. Dan C No one will ever convince me that Jesus abolished any of God's laws even when he said about "turn the other cheek" and I certainly don't believe that since he paid for our sins this means we get to sin over and over and will be a good thing in God's eyes. I am just trying to understand these people and their thinking. It's like a JW not putting much stock in Christ yet they worship on a Sunday. Sighhhhhhhhhh |
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Post by jimmie on Jul 2, 2019 5:29:00 GMT -8
There seems to be an inherent danger in trying to understand false religions:
Deuteronomy 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
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liora
New Member
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Post by liora on Aug 19, 2019 14:45:02 GMT -8
No one will ever convince me that Jesus abolished any of God's laws even when he said about "turn the other cheek" and I certainly don't believe that since he paid for our sins this means we get to sin over and over and will be a good thing in God's eyes. Yeshua cannot abolish Himself. He is the Word (John 1:1). What was nailed to the "cross" was the Law of Sin and Death. The Word of G-D is eternal. I am just trying to understand these people and their thinking. It's like a JW not putting much stock in Christ yet they worship on a Sunday. Sighhhhhhhhhh If you research the origin of JW it is recorded that they came out of the Millerite movement with the SDAs and the Mormons. I do not know the original people's heart - G-D alone knows that - but I find it quite interesting that Miller went back to church after his failed prophecies, and these three groups appeared. I am probably wrong but it smacks a bit like rebellion to me. I mean really ... a female leader who's ruling men? That is pure rebellion. I try to understand how Satan deceives - more than just knowing that it is deception but knowing that he uses the same ruse repeatedly. For instance both the Muslim religion and Mormonism started the same way. How they are the same is worth understanding and noting. One can then see the deception faster even though they are usually very subtle - because Satan is not a creative being. He has specific tricks and deceptions that he uses over time. If you know what Scripture - real Scripture - says, then when the counterfeit appears, you see his hook.
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Post by alon on Aug 19, 2019 16:21:48 GMT -8
No one will ever convince me that Jesus abolished any of God's laws even when he said about "turn the other cheek" and I certainly don't believe that since he paid for our sins this means we get to sin over and over and will be a good thing in God's eyes. Yeshua cannot abolish Himself. He is the Word (John 1:1). What was nailed to the "cross" was the Law of Sin and Death. The Word of G-D is eternal. It was a Roman custom to nail the charges of a condemned man above him as he hung there. What was nailed to the cross was the charges against us and the penalty therefor, which is death! But think- no law, what can a man be charged with? And wherefore is the penalty? Dan C |
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liora
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Post by liora on Aug 19, 2019 21:46:42 GMT -8
It was a Roman custom to nail the charges of a condemned man above him as he hung there. What was nailed to the cross was the charges against us and the penalty therefor, which is death! But think- no law, what can a man be charged with? And wherefore is the penalty? Dan C Very true. But Christians regularly state that we are freed from the Law and are now under Grace. In their theology, the G-D of the Bible contradicts His own proclamation of being unchanging. My point is that the is still in effect, particularly since it is eternal (Psalm 119:160). And let us not forget the words of Yeshua Himself in Matthew 5:18:
"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."
So, even if someone wanted to say that the wasn't eternal, it is still in effect because from the time of Yeshua until now the Heaven and Earth have not ceased. What was nailed the cross was not "the Law ()" but the Law (Penalty) of Death from ones sin (aka the law of sin and death). |
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, by triumphing over them in [the cross] Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
