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Post by alon on May 25, 2019 10:25:50 GMT -8
I think Preachers encouraged this and it is like if you don't speak in tongues that you are not considered to be spiritual enough. Or maybe you need to speak in tongues to belong to some type of higher level spiritual club. As you all know I have always been and will always be more OT than NT so this will never be an issue for me in any case. it was never my intention to look into speaking in tongues which had me create this thread, rather I was simply curious as to MJ's stand is on this and what MJ's consider praying in the spirit to be, questions answered, thanks guys. I've been told by some that if you don't speak in tongues, you aren't saved. That almost gets to the point the Sacred Namers are who say if you don't say the sacred names the way they do you are not saved. He is saved who the Almghty says is saved, not some babbling idiot trying to get me to conform to his level of craziness. Dan C |
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Post by alon on May 25, 2019 10:34:01 GMT -8
Just keep in mind we're only 4 people who consider ourselves Messianic believers. There are some really spiritually bizarre Messianic congregations and believers also. The word "Messianic" is not referring to a cohesive group of people all following the same beliefs and ways like what you expect in Christian denominations. It loosely describes a group of people who are somehow associating Yeshua with Judaism, and  with modern daily life. It's not like we're all even aligning in basic beliefs regarding those fundamentals, however, so much less everything that follows from there. If you are a Catholic going to any Catholic Church, you know what you're going into. The same holds for most every other Christian denomination, but that's not the case with us. You don't really know what you're walking into when you go to a "Messianic" congregation. I noticed when he talked, he excused some off the wall activities with the premise that generally people were not behaving so extremely. Part of how I'm learning to handle these types of issues is that if I see even one issue that's inconsistent with scripture and goes unaddressed - not sticking around. It's one thing to work through weaknesses and obstacles with love for each other in hope and mercy, it's another thing to ignore them or sometimes even encourage them. G-d should not be relegated to a source of entertainment, which is what it feels like they're doing. There's also a dusturbing cheering people on dynamic that, frankly, if I saw in any crowd I'd be disgusted and getting out of there. People and G-d being used for amusement and spectacle shouldn't be happening as much or to the extent that we've become accustomed to, especially not in worship services, but it's seems like that's what's drawing the crowds in the so called "believing" world. I'm really put off by much of what's happening in the so-called believing community. Part of the reason it scares me so much is that so much of what's "spiritual" is not holy. It's confusing and makes our spiritual life harder as it relates to both G-d and the world around us because He is Spirit and we are spiritual. Very good description of the state of Messianic Judaism today. I would point out, however that we are only 4 people actively involved in this thread, and we subscribe (at least while on this forum) to the rules and Statement of Faith of the parent synagogus. With some dissension which may come out at times. But that, like the SoF and our profiles is all out there for anyone to read. So are our posts. Anyone who can read and comprehend can know right up front who we are and what we believe. One of the few benefits a forum, especially a dedicated and (achem) "well moderated" forum such as this has over a regular synagogue or congregation. Dan (just tryin' t' keep it real) C |
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Post by alon on May 25, 2019 11:04:14 GMT -8
I think (deep down) that many of us suspect these charismatic practices as wrong. And we're already secure. But it's good to re-visit the topic from time to time because it's a subject that will never go away! You are absolutely correct! "Cognitive Dissonance ... (self) Hypnotism." I saw the same thing when I was in martial arts, where some were into things like "no touch knockouts." People actually believing they were knocked out without being "touched" by their "opponent." And some actually went out, while others obviously faked it to go along. But watching them, they always fell so as not to hurt themselves; either putting down a hand or falling to knees, then hips, then torso/shoulders, then the head went down last. Done sideways, just like a PLF (parachute landing fall). And when demonstrated with backup- someone to catch them as they fell over backwards- they invariably spread their arms just a bit so they would be more easily (and surely) caught. We trained with "touch." A lot of "touch," and not the easy kind. I've been knocked out, and I went down hard. I've seen people fall like an armload of wet laundry, catching themselves full force with their face. There is no reflexive safety movements. Just blackness, then when you come to and that first wave of pain telling you that your nose is what took the force of your fall! Now, if an opponent can hit me hard enough to knock me out, I cannot imagine God to be weaker than him. Nicer maybe, no bruise from where He hit me, but not weaker. And out is out. Do a PLF for me right there where you were "slain" and I am going to have to cry "Bull!" Knock over a whole line of people by pushing the first one in line and I'm gone. Those antics are more suited for carnival sideshows than a religious service, Christian or Messianic. But some charismatic leaders or ministers are able to convince people to the point they actually believe, and are in a self hypnotized state actually knocked out or speaking in a heavenly language. And I know it is the case that people are convinced because I've had pastors try and teach me to speak in tongues. If it is from God, it doesn't have to be taught. What about those who are not taught? This does occur. Well, there are some who want so badly to belong they enter this trancelike state on their own, without instruction. Others were raised with it so it just comes natural for them. And a really good Charismatic preacher can lead people to this euphoric state of emotion and religious fervor where one sees others doing those things and, being deceived just joins in! Not for me, thank you very much! Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on May 25, 2019 11:46:51 GMT -8
I would point out, however that we are only 4 people actively involved in this thread, and we subscribe (at least while on this forum) to the rules and Statement of Faith of the parent synagogus. With some dissension which may come out at times. But that, like the SoF and our profiles is all out there for anyone to read. So are our posts. Anyone who can read and comprehend can know right up front who we are and what we believe. One of the few benefits a forum, especially a dedicated and (achem) "well moderated" forum such as this has over a regular synagogue or congregation. Dan (just tryin' t' keep it real) C I agree. We are contributing because anyone interested in not only what we believe, but how we try to live our life and make spiritually sound decisions can get a lot of pretty personal, practical insight here that is just not available in other forms of interaction and communication. I feel like we're documenting the process of sanctification in our life as well as the life struggles presented by what we believe. Besides, I couldn't even remember much of what G-d has given me and gotten me through if I hadn't typed it here so there's no way, without His help, that I could communicate all I've communicated here in a face-to-face conversation. Honestly, just being able to hand it back to Him in the possibility it will be productive for someone out there who might read it is a source of comfort for me because I know I can't pull it together any other way without His help. Also, everyday life just doesn't present the opportunities to talk about the things we do here, especially on the level and to the extent we do here. It's good. |
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Post by Elizabeth on May 25, 2019 12:23:52 GMT -8
(Responding to Garrett)
....You are absolutely correct! "Cognitive Dissonance ... (self) Hypnotism." I saw the same thing when I was in martial arts, where some were into things like "no touch knockouts." People actually believing they were knocked out without being "touched" by their "opponent." And some actually went out, while others obviously faked it to go along. But watching them, they always fell so as not to hurt themselves; either putting down a hand or falling to knees, then hips, then torso/shoulders, then the head went down last. Done sideways, just like a PLF (parachute landing fall). And when demonstrated with backup- someone to catch them as they fell over backwards- they invariably spread their arms just a bit so they would be more easily (and surely) caught. We trained with "touch." A lot of "touch," and not the easy kind. I've been knocked out, and I went down hard. I've seen people fall like an armload of wet laundry, catching themselves full force with their face. There is no reflexive safety movements. Just blackness, then when you come to and that first wave of pain telling you that your nose is what took the force of your fall! Now, if an opponent can hit me hard enough to knock me out, I cannot imagine God to be weaker than him. Nicer maybe, no bruise from where He hit me, but not weaker. And out is out. Do a PLF for me right there where you were "slain" and I am going to have to cry "Bull!" Knock over a whole line of people by pushing the first one in line and I'm gone. Those antics are more suited for carnival sideshows than a religious service, Christian or Messianic. But some charismatic leaders or ministers are able to convince people to the point they actually believe, and are in a self hypnotized state actually knocked out or speaking in a heavenly language. And I know it is the case that people are convinced because I've had pastors try and teach me to speak in tongues. If it is from God, it doesn't have to be taught. What about those who are not taught? This does occur. Well, there are some who want so badly to belong they enter this trancelike state on their own, without instruction. Others were raised with it so it just comes natural for them. And a really good Charismatic preacher can lead people to this euphoric state of emotion and religious fervor where one sees others doing those things and, being deceived just joins in! Not for me, thank you very much! Dan C G-d had no problem throwing Jacob's hip out of joint just by touching his hip socket so G-d's definition of nice does not always match our definition. I've heard that he limped the rest of his life. I don't think it's in scripture, but I think it's a very real possibility. Regardless, that one time experience affected the rest of his life. Yeshua had holes in His hands and feet after the resurrection. I believe even in His glory there will still be some indication of the nail marks based on Isaiah and my own understanding of how G-d does things. Paul had to put up with the thorn in his side for his entire life though he begged and pleaded with G-d to remove it. So ......if G-d does bruise you, Alon, I'm not so sure it would go away.  Yet, in G-d's wisdom, all of these became a source of encouragement pointing to G-d's grace as the source of his strength so we know you would be eternally blessed by that bruise along with countless other people. I just think when G-d does something like what they're trying to make of those events, it's so perfect in its means and purpose that when you do get up, you walk away forever changed. So you wouldn't be what appears like addicted to the experience going back for seconds, thirds, and so on because you did have an experience that effects you for the the rest of your life. I just don't see Him move in scripture like whatever that is moving at these events. |
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Post by Elizabeth on May 25, 2019 13:01:37 GMT -8
I think (deep down) that many of us suspect these charismatic practices as wrong. And we're already secure. But it's good to re-visit the topic from time to time because it's a subject that will never go away! You are absolutely correct! "Cognitive Dissonance ... (self) Hypnotism." I saw the same thing when I was in martial arts, where some were into things like "no touch knockouts." People actually believing they were knocked out without being "touched" by their "opponent." And some actually went out, while others obviously faked it to go along. But watching them, they always fell so as not to hurt themselves; either putting down a hand or falling to knees, then hips, then torso/shoulders, then the head went down last. Done sideways, just like a PLF (parachute landing fall). And when demonstrated with backup- someone to catch them as they fell over backwards- they invariably spread their arms just a bit so they would be more easily (and surely) caught. We trained with "touch." A lot of "touch," and not the easy kind. I've been knocked out, and I went down hard. I've seen people fall like an armload of wet laundry, catching themselves full force with their face. There is no reflexive safety movements. Just blackness, then when you come to and that first wave of pain telling you that your nose is what took the force of your fall! Now, if an opponent can hit me hard enough to knock me out, I cannot imagine God to be weaker than him. Nicer maybe, no bruise from where He hit me, but not weaker. And out is out. Do a PLF for me right there where you were "slain" and I am going to have to cry "Bull!" Knock over a whole line of people by pushing the first one in line and I'm gone. Those antics are more suited for carnival sideshows than a religious service, Christian or Messianic. But some charismatic leaders or ministers are able to convince people to the point they actually believe, and are in a self hypnotized state actually knocked out or speaking in a heavenly language. And I know it is the case that people are convinced because I've had pastors try and teach me to speak in tongues. If it is from God, it doesn't have to be taught. What about those who are not taught? This does occur. Well, there are some who want so badly to belong they enter this trancelike state on their own, without instruction. Others were raised with it so it just comes natural for them. And a really good Charismatic preacher can lead people to this euphoric state of emotion and religious fervor where one sees others doing those things and, being deceived just joins in! Not for me, thank you very much! Dan C I just realized what you actually typed, Alon. It didn't really hit me till after I logged out - like a delayed post no-hit knock out. I realized that's because the standard of the action packed death defying drama of your life stories in my mind is just incredibly high. PLF??? Never would have been in my realm of thinking that there is an acronym for a parachute landing fall. I think it perhaps PSPD911 is more accurate. (please someone pre-dial 911). |
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Post by alon on May 25, 2019 14:50:25 GMT -8
G-d had no problem throwing Jacob's hip out of joint just by touching his hip socket so G-d's definition of nice does not always match our definition. I've heard that he limped the rest of his life. I don't think it's in scripture, but I think it's a very real possibility. Regardless, that one time experience affected the rest of his life. Yeshua had holes in His hands and feet after the resurrection. I believe even in His glory there will still be some indication of the nail marks based on Isaiah and my own understanding of how G-d does things. Paul had to put up with the thorn in his side for his entire life though he begged and pleaded with G-d to remove it. So ......if G-d does bruise you, Alon, I'm not so sure it would go away. Yet, in G-d's wisdom, all of these became a source of encouragement pointing to G-d's grace as the source of his strength so we know you would be eternally blessed by that bruise along with countless other people. I just think when G-d does something like what they're trying to make of those events, it's so perfect in its means and purpose that when you do get up, you walk away forever changed. So you wouldn't be what appears like addicted to the experience going back for seconds, thirds, and so on because you did have an experience that effects you for the the rest of your life. I just don't see Him move in scripture like whatever that is moving at these events. Good points. Someone call "Master" Dillman and tell him I owe him an apology, seein' as how I actually did it myself now! (But do I have to update my "Found out I was Wrong" thread too?) I did a lot of stupid things, and a lot of things that were necessary but still hard on my body. And trust me, you may defy death and get away with it, but this end of life, all that stupid stuff comes back to haunt a person! Jumping isn't really death defying (stupid is debatable!), but it can be hard on the knees down the road. Dan (gettin' high on life) C |
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Post by garrett on May 25, 2019 15:42:24 GMT -8
Alon said:
And I know it is the case that people are convinced because I've had pastors try and teach me to speak in tongues. If it is from God, it doesn't have to be taught.
What about those who are not taught? This does occur. Well, there are some who want so badly to belong they enter this trancelike state on their own, without instruction. Others were raised with it so it just comes natural for them. And a really good Charismatic preacher can lead people to this euphoric state of emotion and religious fervor where one sees others doing those things and, being deceived just joins in! Not for me, thank you very much!
Read more: theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/4679/mjs-pray-spirit?page=2#ixzz5oyuJTsN1Alon, the above three instances are 100% accurate. Someone tried to teach me to speak in "tongues" and develop my own "prayer language" many years ago. My gut instincts started to question what was happening right away. I also wondered why the person pulled me aside and isolated me from the rest of the people who were around. I've also known people who want to participate in this behavior so badly that they seek out ways to "speak in tongues." And I've known countless people who were raised around this behavior and/or had pastors encourage the behavior in order to join the rest of the group. Readers beware: Never check your brains at the door. God gave us a brain (and instincts) for a reason. How ironic that my commentary section for this weeks Parsha said 'Order is Heaven's first law.' (regarding Numbers/Bamidbar 2:17 - "...Then the Tent of Meeting, with the camp of the Levites, shall set forward in the midst of the camps; as they encamp, so shall they shall set forward, every man in his place, by their standards." It's quite a requirement that G-d ensured His Sanctuary (HIS Sanctuary!) and His Divine Presence should always be 'in the midst of the children of Israel.' ... the Mishkan - G-d's Tent of Meeting was situated Directly in the center of all the intentionally, well placed tribes of Israel. We shouldn't pollute the place where G-d takes Sanctuary nor where His Presence is supposed to reside.
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Post by mystic on May 26, 2019 3:59:28 GMT -8
Someone tried to teach me to speak in "tongues" and develop my own "prayer language" many years ago. My gut instincts started to question what was happening right away. I also wondered why the person pulled me aside and isolated me from the rest of the people who were around. I've also known people who want to participate in this behavior so badly that they seek out ways to "speak in tongues." That was pretty much my situation. I had looked into speaking in tongues 2 years ago because I had thought this was needed to get closest to God so I purchased the instructional videos from Sid Roth. However something inside me kept me from even looking into those videos when I got them so I thought ok maybe I'm not ready yet so I will keep the videos until such time. Not too long after that the voice inside me told me NO, this is not for me so I threw out the video and that was that. |
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- there are 70 faces to 
