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Post by mystic on May 21, 2019 3:01:55 GMT -8
Do you pray in tongues, pray like the way Hanna prayed or in some other way please?
A lot of Christians tell me that the only way to get closer to God is to pray in tongues and this from Jesus himself:
Mark 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
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Post by jimmie on May 21, 2019 7:21:03 GMT -8
How do you define tongue(s)?
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Post by mystic on May 21, 2019 10:03:53 GMT -8
Christians speak some weird kind of language when they are "praying in the spirit" and call it speaking in tongues, many videos on it on youtube. I know what they do, I am asking here what MJ's do to pray in the spirit also clarify what Jesus meant with his words "they shall speak with new tongues"?
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Post by jimmie on May 21, 2019 11:15:28 GMT -8
Tongues = Language
The utterance of unintelligible sounds is not language therefore not tongues.
In acts when Peter spoke everyone understood him, regardless of his native tongue/language. This is what Jesus was referring to.
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Post by mystic on May 22, 2019 3:45:33 GMT -8
Tongues = Language The utterance of unintelligible sounds is not language therefore not tongues. In acts when Peter spoke everyone understood him, regardless of his native tongue/language. This is what Jesus was referring to.To me, when Jesus said those words, he meant they will speak in the languages of the people they are addressing. So again the question how do MJ's pray "in the spirit"? |
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Post by alon on May 22, 2019 11:30:59 GMT -8
Tongues = Language The utterance of unintelligible sounds is not language therefore not tongues. In acts when Peter spoke everyone understood him, regardless of his native tongue/language. This is what Jesus was referring to.To me, when Jesus said those words, he meant they will speak in the languages of the people they are addressing. So again the question how do MJ's pray "in the spirit"? The first thing we need to do is get our terminology straight. Here again, you are listening to Christian sources and so using and internalizing their views and understanding. This will create confusion when using the same terms here where people may have a different and much deeper understanding of the terms. I found a link to a thread which contains most of the answers you are looking for as well as correcting much of the misunderstanding: theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/4016/tonguesRead that through, and if you have specific questions you can revive that thread by posting them there. Questions not pertaining to that thread, or if you just don't understand it can be posted here and we'll try to answer. Suffice to say here praying in the Spirit is neither the purely emotionally charged prayer of Pentecostal Christians, nor is it purely a studious, fact driven experience of the Baptists and others. It is you communing with your Creator, allowing Him in as you earnestly worship, repent, ask help, stand in for others; whatever your reason for praying it starts with an earnest entreaty of God. You can't force it and there is no formula. Just you come before Him and He will meet you there. It's not the same every time- that would become commonplace. And He, not you determines when and how the Ruach will minister to you. Don't seek to "pray in the Spirit," instead seek His face and trust Him to minister to you, "in the Spirit." That happens every time, whether you "feel" it, realize it, hope for it, or not. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on May 22, 2019 12:52:00 GMT -8
Our job as followers of G-d is to serve G-d, and in so doing, draw people to Him. I guess I'm really wary of the way some people seem to be seeking the supernatural, and though of course we all should want to draw near to G-d, there's something warped in the charismatic mentality of doing so because it seems like self and show from what I hear.
The whole thing makes me uncomfortable and wary because I don't need anymore confusion and spiritual difficulties, but that's what it feels like most of these gifts are handing us so then I'm thinking it can't be from G-d. Meanwhile, I think they're just convoluting the truth because here we all are, G-d does speak of supernatural gifts, but none of us can really explain what He meant in light of how it applies to us because of these types of occurrences.
I think the lack of clarity is why I get so uncomfortable and nervous about it. The adversary will lead many astray with the supernatural, and the fact we don't really know what to make of these happenings, theses verses, and how people who consider themselves followers of Yeshua can be so unclear and divided over this worries me. Something is just very wrong.
Regardless, I absolutely would not listen to someone telling me what I have to do to get closer to G-d if it's something emanating from me and something only a privileged few receive. That's not the nature of our G-d or His relationship with us. If you love Him and truly seek Him, He will bring you close. If it seems like we need more than what He's giving, either our faith is being tried and tested or our hearts are wrong.
I am personally coming to really admire those with a quiet, constant faith that just trusts G-d with what they have and don't have. That kind of faith impresses me. The faith of the ones who don't need proof, strong feelings to stay dedicated, or supernatural experiences to trust and stay close to Him really impress me. That's because waiting on Him in hope and assurance when there's not much there to feel hope and assurance in except His word and promise is really hard. It's harder to love G-d when He's quiet, but if you can't do that then you really can't love Him. So, don't underestimate how close those people who can wait in quiet unassuming faith really are to Him and how much they mean to Him just because it's not somehow made obvious yo us. We all have to work through our weaknesses and I think to really love Him and also to stay spiritually safe, we have to overcome the intrigue of the supernatural. We have to want G-d for the right reasons to really love Him, and that's just really hard for us to do. I think it's a long process and we shouldn't get hung up on seeking anything, including spiritual things more than Him. I think that may be what's happening on this topic, and I worry about how much confusion and anxiety it seems to create.
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Post by mystic on May 24, 2019 2:26:00 GMT -8
Don't seek to "pray in the Spirit," instead seek His face and trust Him to minister to you, "in the Spirit." That happens every time, whether you "feel" it, realize it, hope for it, or not. Dan C Well, I am simply trying to understand what praying in the spirit means to MJ's is all since Paul instructs us to pray in the spirit. Do MJ's not follow Paul's teachings? |
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Post by alon on May 24, 2019 10:41:26 GMT -8
Don't seek to "pray in the Spirit," instead seek His face and trust Him to minister to you, "in the Spirit." That happens every time, whether you "feel" it, realize it, hope for it, or not. Dan C Well, I am simply trying to understand what praying in the spirit means to MJ's is all since Paul instructs us to pray in the spirit. Do MJ's not follow Paul's teachings? Yes we do: That's how, summarized. Study  , keep the mitzvoth, trust in and pray only to the God of Israel, allow Him in to minister to your spirit, and don't force or strive fo any emotional state. Instead, allow His Ruach to minister to your spirit as He sees fit. That's as simple as I can make it. Dan C |
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Post by garrett on May 24, 2019 17:37:10 GMT -8
On the topic of speaking in tongues...I recently saw a short video of Michael Brown discussing how he initially began to "speak in tongues." I don't know a lot about him, except that he is an expert in semitic languages. I think he has a doctorate degree in this field and I found that to be impressive. I saw him in a few other videos and he seemed alright. But when I heard him describe his own "prayer language" that developed I thought, "you've got to be kidding me." He literally described it coming about in the same way that I've heard others describe it so many times before.
Mr. Brown is Jewish too. I found his speaking in tongues testimony to be more harmful to his representation of the gospel to other jews. As if things aren't already complicated enough.
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Post by Elizabeth on May 24, 2019 21:43:50 GMT -8
I looked at some of Michael Brown's videos to educate myself as I had heard of him and heard him speak a bit. He seemed pretty knowledgable. I didn't know he was such a proponent of tongues speaking, and was surprised to hear that. Anyway. now I'm really disturbed. "Slaying" people in the spirit??..... where is that biblically unless it's cases like David and Goliath? Why are people lining up to be "slayed" in the Spirit? You know that saying "what would Jesus do?"......not that. I mean that seriously? Does that accurately reflect His purpose and character? I just don't see it, and it makes me really nervous what I'm getting into as a Messianic believer just because there's already so much uncertainty and weakness. We are dealing with a huge over-our- head spiritual truth and reality. We have to know what we're doing enough to handle something we can't, and I know how easy it is to get pulled into things you can't explain. You have to look at it on a very black and while level I think. Is this the testimony Yeshua handed us? Conviction, repentance, faith, deeds reflecting an inner change consistent with the character of Yeshua, on your heart. These are the fundamental goals for followers of Yeshua. Then you know what, after that- G-d help us because when He decides to move He's going to ask a lot more than standing in line and getting pushed over by someone else's hand to the ground. When was that ever done in scripture? Then where did it come from. .... scares me. All this does it make me fearful of G-d's Spirit in a way because I'm afraid of being mislead by evil into something to big for me. I'm fine being over my head with G-d, but we have to know when it's Him. I just don't see how this is Him based on scripture. We are commanded to love G-d with all our heart, mind, and soul. It then seems your mind should be on G-dly things when praying and he said when he speaks in tongues, it's not......that right there is a red flag. We are changed by a renewing of our minds (Romans 12:2) and commanded to bring every thought captive to Yeshua. (2 Corinthisbs 10:5). That let your mind go or stop your mind completely is new age, pagan based, meditative methods of spirituality. We are supposed to control our minds and fill our minds with good and holy things. Also, just consider how much the scripture focuses on tongues compared to these types of charismatic churches and those who attend - it's just way out of proportion and seems to be a kind of end all be all. I don't know what's going on, and last time I'll say it, but it scares me. |
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Post by alon on May 25, 2019 0:13:06 GMT -8
I looked at some of Michael Brown's videos to educate myself as I had heard of him and heard him speak a bit. He seemed pretty knowledgable. I didn't know he was such a proponent of tongues speaking, and was surprised to hear that. Anyway. now I'm really disturbed. "Slaying" people in the spirit??..... where is that biblically unless it's cases like David and Goliath? Why are people lining up to be "slayed" in the Spirit? You know that saying "what would Jesus do?"......not that. I mean that seriously? Does that accurately reflect His purpose and character? I just don't see it, and it makes me really nervous what I'm getting into as a Messianic believer just because there's already so much uncertainty and weakness. We are dealing with a huge over-our- head spiritual truth and reality. We have to know what we're doing enough to handle something we can't, and I know how easy it is to get pulled into things you can't explain. You have to look at it on a very black and while level I think. Is this the testimony Yeshua handed us? Conviction, repentance, faith, deeds reflecting an inner change consistent with the character of Yeshua, on your heart. These are the fundamental goals for followers of Yeshua. Then you know what, after that- G-d help us because when He decides to move He's going to ask a lot more than standing in line and getting pushed over by someone else's hand to the ground. When was that ever done in scripture? Then where did it come from. .... scares me. All this does it make me fearful of G-d's Spirit in a way because I'm afraid of being mislead by evil into something to big for me. I'm fine being over my head with G-d, but we have to know when it's Him. I just don't see how this is Him based on scripture. We are commanded to love G-d with all our heart, mind, and soul. It then seems your mind should be on G-dly things when praying and he said when he speaks in tongues, it's not......that right there is a red flag. We are changed by a renewing of our minds (Romans 12:2) and commanded to bring every thought captive to Yeshua. (2 Corinthisbs 10:5). That let your mind go or stop your mind completely is new age, pagan based, meditative methods of spirituality. We are supposed to control our minds and fill our minds with good and holy things. Also, just consider how much the scripture focuses on tongues compared to these types of charismatic churches and those who attend - it's just way out of proportion and seems to be a kind of end all be all. I don't know what's going on, and last time I'll say it, but it scares me.
Psalm 2:11 (CJB) Serve Adonai with fear; rejoice, but with trembling.If it scares us a little nit, that's a good thing. But honestly, neither you nor Garrett worries me concerning this. I think you are both well grounded enough not to fall into the heresy of tongues. And mystic had the good sense to ask instead of going off and blindly following his friends. Still, it's good to discuss it because it helps keep us all grounded. We should be cognizant of the warnings in scripture and none of us get complacent. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on May 25, 2019 6:46:15 GMT -8
I think Preachers encouraged this and it is like if you don't speak in tongues that you are not considered to be spiritual enough. Or maybe you need to speak in tongues to belong to some type of higher level spiritual club.
As you all know I have always been and will always be more OT than NT so this will never be an issue for me in any case. it was never my intention to look into speaking in tongues which had me create this thread, rather I was simply curious as to MJ's stand is on this and what MJ's consider praying in the spirit to be, questions answered, thanks guys.
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Post by Elizabeth on May 25, 2019 8:15:34 GMT -8
I think Preachers encouraged this and it is like if you don't speak in tongues that you are not considered to be spiritual enough. Or maybe you need to speak in tongues to belong to some type of higher level spiritual club. As you all know I have always been and will always be more OT than NT so this will never be an issue for me in any case. it was never my intention to look into speaking in tongues which had me create this thread, rather I was simply curious as to MJ's stand is on this and what MJ's consider praying in the spirit to be, questions answered, thanks guys. Just keep in mind we're only 4 people who consider ourselves Messianic believers. There are some really spiritually bizarre Messianic congregations and believers also. The word "Messianic" is not referring to a cohesive group of people all following the same beliefs and ways like what you expect in Christian denominations. It loosely describes a group of people who are somehow associating Yeshua with Judaism, and with modern daily life. It's not like we're all even aligning in basic beliefs regarding those fundamentals, however, so much less everything that follows from there. If you are a Catholic going to any Catholic Church, you know what you're going into. The same holds for most every other Christian denomination, but that's not the case with us. You don't really know what you're walking into when you go to a "Messianic" congregation. I noticed when he talked, he excused some off the wall activities with the premise that generally people were not behaving so extremely. Part of how I'm learning to handle these types of issues is that if I see even one issue that's inconsistent with scripture and goes unaddressed - not sticking around. It's one thing to work through weaknesses and obstacles with love for each other in hope and mercy, it's another thing to ignore them or sometimes even encourage them. G-d should not be relegated to a source of entertainment, which is what it feels like they're doing. There's also a dusturbing cheering people on dynamic that, frankly, if I saw in any crowd I'd be disgusted and getting out of there. People and G-d being used for amusement and spectacle shouldn't be happening as much or to the extent that we've become accustomed to, especially not in worship services, but it's seems like that's what's drawing the crowds in the so called "believing" world. I'm really put off by much of what's happening in the so-called believing community. Part of the reason it scares me so much is that so much of what's "spiritual" is not holy. It's confusing and makes our spiritual life harder as it relates to both G-d and the world around us because He is Spirit and we are spiritual. |
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Post by garrett on May 25, 2019 10:02:39 GMT -8
Elizabeth said:
Just keep in mind we're only 4 people who consider ourselves Messianic believers. There are some really spiritually bizarre Messianic congregations and believers also.
The word "Messianic" is not referring to a cohesive group of people all following the same beliefs and ways like what you expect in Christian denominations. It loosely describes a group of people who are somehow associating Yeshua with Judaism, and with modern daily life. It's not like we're all even aligning in basic beliefs regarding those fundamentals, however, so much less everything that follows from there. If you are a Catholic going to any Catholic Church, you know what you're going into. The same holds for most every other Christian denomination, but that's not the case with us. You don't really know what you're walking into when you go to a "Messianic" congregation.
Read more: theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/4679/mjs-pray-spirit?page=1#ixzz5oxZGVaZc
(not sure if I quoted this the right way... - garrett)You're right when you say that this is just 4 people and that a person generally doesn't know what he or she is getting into when walking into a Messianic congregation. It can be a gathering of former church going, charismatic "believers" who now adopted some type of Jewish mantle in order to keep things interesting, exciting, warm and fuzzy. It's the new flavor of the month for a lot of folks. I've been to a place where it was basically "church on Saturday" where nothing really changed except for the day people gathered. You (Elizabeth) mentioned "conviction, faith, living according to Yeshua, the basics of ", etc. These things are pretty darn well grounded ways to live out a spiritual, religious life under G-d. It is also closer to the ways I've seen orthodox Jews live out their lives, with the unfortunate exclusion of Yeshua as the Moshiach. Nothing is terribly murky or un-measurable - unlike dealing with the burden of proof needed in order to know if your "tongues" mean anything at all. Or if you really "fell down", being slain in the spirit - knocked over by G-d himself. Cognitive Dissonance is what this is. Hypnotism. A willingness to turn one's self over to the group mentality. I think (deep down) that many of us suspect these charismatic practices as wrong. And we're already secure. But it's good to re-visit the topic from time to time because it's a subject that will never go away!
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- there are 70 faces to 
