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Post by mystic on Apr 22, 2019 2:57:29 GMT -8
Also is it a Christians only or for Jews too?
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 22, 2019 10:38:19 GMT -8
Generally, it's important as the living word of G-d as scripture. Specifically, it's prophetic. It tells us what to expect, how to prepare, and the ultimate outcome of G-d's plan for life and His Creation. It describes the events we face so we can know where we are in terms of G-d's schedule, what He expects of those who are victorious in the end, and act accordingly.
It applies to all people regardless of race, ethnicity, religion and so on as it's the truth of G-d for His plan for all creation, and therefore for all people.
The Jewish people play a huge role in G-d's plans, but their role is about how G-d will intervene and interact with the whole world. For example, it's not until the Jewish remnant calls on Yeshua that He returns, but His return is for the whole world. There are also many specific events that unfold arround the nation of Israel. However He calls on the whole world, specifically believers, to pay attention to the events to help us kind of gauge where we are at in relation to the end times and be ready.
The fig tree Yeshua speaks of in Matthew 24:32 that we should learn from and watch is referring to Israel, but the events we witness if we watch will impact the whole world.
Its just Israel's calling as a nation to be the people whom G-d acts and moves through in the world so even that in itself is prophetic, but G-d's Word is for all people through and through because that's just the nature of truth.
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Post by alon on Apr 22, 2019 11:48:06 GMT -8
How or why is the book of revelations important? Also is it a Christians only or for Jews too? That is a really good question (or questions). The simple answer is the entire Bible was written by Jews for Jews. And for those Christians who are truly grafted into Israel this would include them. It's important because it edifies us, not only telling us what to expect but how we should act in that time. But what time? This won't sit well with many raised in church and taught that it was written just for those who are here when the end times fall on us. But Revelation is a real letter about 1st cen events to seven very real historical synagogues undergoing terrible persecution. As such, it has to make sense to them before it can make sense to us. It is written in the Apocalyptic Tradition, a writing style that is uniquely Jewish. Revelation 13:15c-18 (NASB) as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.
The name “Nero Ceasar” in Hebrew is נרון קטר neron qesar, which Gematrially adds up to 666. Of course the names of many historical people have also added up to this, some who’ve certainly acted like “the Beast.” The imagery of Revelation, part of which is this terrible Beast follows the Jewish apocalyptical tradition of animals representing people. 666 is a Gematria, a numeric code which calculates and helps us identify “the beast.” To Jews the “mark of the beast” placed on the head and on the hand would symbolically be very familiar as they lay tefillin during morning prayer. The men literally wear God’s words on forehead and hand. So the “mark of the Beast” is analogous to laying tefillin. This “mark” would be a sign of loyalty to the Beast and his ways. Revelation expresses some very anti-Roman sentiments: Revelation 17:1,7-9 (NASB) Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, … And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
In the language of the original 1st cen. Jewish audience the woman who sits on seven mountains is the goddess Roma. Rome is known as the city which sits on seven hills, or mountains. It is a prophetic message which rebukes sin and proclaims hope. It issues stern warnings to those who stray into paganism while offering a bright future to those who remain faithful and persevere in their persecution. This is what all biblical prophecy does. Revelation says these events will come to pass “very soon” (Rev 1:1, 22:6). So according to John it was something that was supposed to happen in their day; very soon. Revelation is also about future events, as is expected of prophecy. However the main message is focused on the 1st cen. Dan (probably about to be persecuted for saying this  ) C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 22, 2019 15:38:53 GMT -8
I agree it was relevant to the first century, especially the descriptions of the congregations, but that's how prophecy is. However, I think you think it may be more relevant to the first century because much of the prophecy has yet to take place.  Unless you're assuming it's mostly not literal, which I don't advise if you take the plagues of Egypt literally as that's our paradigm, I don't see how you could think anything but that the vast majority has yet to take place. So I think when we see things like the sun turning black, the wind no longer blowing, and the other trumpet and bowl judgments falling, we'll see it greatly applies at that future time. |
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Post by alon on Apr 22, 2019 16:19:40 GMT -8
I agree it was relevant to the first century, especially the descriptions of the congregations, but that's how prophecy is. However, I think you think it may be more relevant to the first century because much of the prophecy has yet to take place. Unless you're assuming it's mostly not literal, which I don't advise if you take the plagues of Egypt literally as that's our paradigm, I don't see how you could think anything but that the vast majority has yet to take place. So I think when we see things like the sun turning black, the wind no longer blowing, and the other trumpet and bowl judgments falling, we'll see it greatly applies at that future time. I agree that much of Revelations was written for the end times. But we must understand that those 1st cen Jews thought they were living in the last days! Yeshua spoke to His talmedim as though they would see the end: Matthew 24:1-14 (ESV) Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Read the above and see if it doesn't sound to you like Yeshua is talking to His followers right there about events that will unfold in their own lives. Recall that the gospel was proclaimed "to the ends of the earth" by some of these very men who later became shaliachim. And all those things did happen to them and to others. Jews tell of past events to their children as though they themselves were present. Prophecy, in a sort of small chiastic exercise often is told as though those present are or will be there for the final event. And many throughout history effectively have "been there" for this one. Is it hard to think that Jews who endured the Shoah wouldn't have thought they were experiencing the last days of not only themselves but the world? Wars, disease, starvation and other judgements have plagued mankind for centuries. The sun and moon have been blood re and even blackened by fires occurring either naturally or because of war. And I've seen dust storms do the same. I do believe the end times will be more devastating, but to those experiencing the current wave of terrorism and murder in N Africa it is probably every bit as real and devastating. However Revelation was meant as comfort and promise as well as a warning to those Christians now suffering from Islamic militias as much as it is for those who experience the end times. So no, I am not saying it was only or even mostly to those 1st cen believers that Revelation was written. It was written to all succeeding generations as well. However a letter with no relevance to the time would have not been deemed significant. In this respect it was written primarily to those contemporary believers. Its' relevance however is timeless- at least in the context of world history. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 23, 2019 5:15:10 GMT -8
I personally don't read Yeshua's statement to sound like that, but I have two thousand years of history and a bigger idea of what the "world" meant than people at that time.
I completely agree some were expecting the Kingdom in their time and many people throughout history watching for it, have felt the same way. Yet, we know just based on Daniel that certain things must happen first, such as a third Temple. When I hear people say things like "it could be any time", I point that out because I think underlying that is an attitude of denial that somehow things can't get much worse. That's not what scripture reveals, and we in our culture generally seem very unprepared to suffer to me.
For context on my thinking, I'm not sure Paul realized he was even writing scripture for future generations when he wrote the various letters he wrote to the congregations.
I'm sure John knew he was writing Revelations for future generations, but perhaps Paul could not have imagined what he was giving to the world and to us today still reading it. Maybe, as far as he was concerned, His writing was just to the congregations of that current time he addressed them to. Either way, as humans, they couldn't help but have current generations in mind when they wrote it, and so they likely had no idea how much they were really saying as the world has "progressed" and now in some ways their writings seem to describe us even more so.
I do think they thought the end would come sooner then it is, but G-d guided their writing to extend far beyond what would even be good for them to imagine I think. Many of the verses seem to describe us perfectly, but I doubt they could have realized the gravity of that as they wrote it.
I think that's how all of scripture is though as truth and the nature of people and the spiritual battles we fight stays the same. In general, we should assume G-d has a lot more people in mind then we do when he gives us something to say or do. I have a feeling the meaning of "soon" will probably hit us when we see His plans and activity in light of the generational effects of our words and how we lived our lives. G-d help us.
It's good to see how well and much some of those before us have done, but I don't think they thoroughly realized how much they were doing and giving at the time. I just don't think we can fully comprehend how big is G-d's plan, nor do I think He wants us to because we can't handle it. So I think they had there and then in their heart, but G-d knew all the rest and so directed them in His wisdom and protection to give beyond what they could realize.
Anyway, all of it applies to every single soul across time, culture, and religion. But I agree, they probably primarily had their own time and people of that time in mind when they were writing. They were human and that's just inherent to how we all work and how G-d works with us I think.
That's something to imagine when they see all of us through the generations one day in the Kingdom praising G-d for what He did through them, but I don't think they realized how much they were doing when they were on earth doing it.
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Post by mystic on Apr 23, 2019 7:38:00 GMT -8
Thanks for the explanations guys. So if I am understanding correctly the Book Of Revelations is only for informational purposes and not like the bible requiring us to keep scripture, is this right?
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Post by alon on Apr 23, 2019 10:02:25 GMT -8
Thanks for the explanations guys. So if I am understanding correctly the Book Of Revelations is only for informational purposes and not like the bible requiring us to keep scripture, is this right? While it is prophecy and thus for "informational purposes," it is scripture and you do have to do or act as instructed. What part are you having trouble doing? Dan C |
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Post by alon on Apr 23, 2019 12:56:51 GMT -8
I personally don't read Yeshua's statement to sound like that, but I have two thousand years of history and a bigger idea of what the "world" meant than people at that time. You also have 2000 yrs of church indoctrination to overcome, which could explain why you don't see it like that. Just a thought. You are probably right about that "underlying attitude of denial." I believe the time leading up to the end times will be pretty rough; probably worse than anything we've seen so far. In Rev 12:4 when the dragon sweeps 1/3rd of the stars from the sky, common understanding is this means the angels that fell with ha'satan. And they may be right, since biblical history is repetitive. But stars in the Bible represent people. I believe that 1/3rd of those who profess the Christ and are actually saved to that point will abandon the faith. And I believe this will be in large part because of this attitude. Most of these will be Christians who have fallen into this doctrine that they will be yanked out of here before things get too bad. Times change, men don't. So yes, we are described and included in the message. And if we are honest, there's a little of all those congregations in each of us. By the way, Revelation was written by the shaliach Yochanon (Apostle John), not Rav Shaul (Paul). This is clearly stated in the first verse of the first chapter. Unless you think it was written pseudonymously. However this usually occurs when the author lacks authority and wants to lend credence to his writing. Shaul had no doubts as to his authority, so that wouldn't make sense. I think it more likely you made a mistake. I've done that myself, said "Paul" even though I know it was Yochanon. Shoot-fire, he wrote so much of the Bible, his name always seems to come up! Too true, I'm afraid. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 23, 2019 13:23:28 GMT -8
I wasn't clear in my post - I was just drawing on Paul's writings to make a point about John's. I went back and tried to clarify and expand on my thoughts. After, reading your previous post though Alon, I'm no longer sure we're taking about the same thing. I guess Im trying to say that I don't think people generally know how much G-d is up to so scripture always applies regardless of whatever human and cultural limitations that typically occur with time. Also, I don't think those who wrote it realized the full extent of what they were giving and to how many so whoever they had in mind was not all G-d had in mind. Even if they had their own audience in mind, G-d had His, and that's all of us. Not sure if I'm offering a response to your posts or just a random thought at this point because I think we may be discussing two different things. Guess it's one way to keep the board active though. |
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Post by alon on Apr 23, 2019 15:58:30 GMT -8
Not sure if I'm offering a response to your posts or just a random thought at this point because I think we may be discussing two different things. Guess it's one way to keep the board active though. Well, there's a lot to be said for that!  OK, that makes more sense. Understand that Jews did not have a canon as such. They read from numerous texts and letters. It wasn't until the Christian Church was formalized that Marcion's idea of a canon was realized. Even the Septuagint, long thought as Catholic tradition taught to have been written before Yeshua is now being questioned by scholars. It is entirely possible it was written much later. I know the NT appears to quote from the LXX, however it is possible those quotes come from other sources now lost to us but which were available in the 1st cen and even later when the LXX might have been written. Regardless, Jews even today utilize many texts not in the TNK. And the letters were meant to be cyclical, so I imagine they had some idea all their works might be read by many people. However I doubt they had any idea just how widely they'd be read by how many and for how long! I think God had in mind Revelation as a comfort to men in all times, especially the end times. But you are correct, I doubt they knew that. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Apr 24, 2019 3:05:04 GMT -8
No trouble, I had read or skimmed through it a few years ago at the beginning of my walk and I hear about the Book of Revelations very frequently on TV so curious why it's that famous or important. |
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Post by rakovsky on May 7, 2019 18:47:07 GMT -8
It has alot of apocalyptic images and is meant to give encouragement and faith in the face of severe persecution and other troubles like natural disasters.
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Post by rakovsky on May 7, 2019 18:47:53 GMT -8
For those who are interested, I am listing all the movies that I found about Revelation. You can watch all of them for free online, although some might be only on Amazon online:
The Antichrist: Zero Hour (Decoding the Past series)
The Apocalypse (2002, Richard Harris)
Apocalypse (Secret Bible series [The series' second and third parts cover Appolonius and the Book of Revelation, 45 min per section])
Apocalypse (41 min, Decoding the Past series, History Channel)
Apocalypse: The Puzzle of Revelation (50 min, Mysteries of the Bible)
Biblical Prophecy of John - End Times Revelation & Message (1986)
Book of Revelation (41 min, History Channel)
Countdown to Armageddon (Decoding the Past)
Doomsday Book of Revelations (45 min, Natl Geographic)
God v. Satan: The Final Battle (History Channel)
John in Exile (Dean Jones)
Mysteries of the Apocalypse (Dir. Sophia Andrews)
The Omega Code & Megiddo: The Omega Code 2
Revelation: The End of the World? (Ancient Evidence series, BBC, 2003, Hosted by Avery Brooks)
Revelation: The End of the World? (Bible Mysteries series, BBC, narrated by Kenneth Cranham, includes prologue, 49:00 minutes)
Revelations: The Last Judgment (The Bible: A History series)
The Second Coming of Christ (2017/2018, Dir.: Daniel Anghelcev)
The Secrets of Revelation (Nat. Geographic, Riddles of the Bible, 2008. 50 min)
The Seventh Seal (1957, Directed by Ingmar Bergman)
The Seventh Sign (1988)
Tales from the Bible
(2006 series. Episode 8: This episode explores an end of times that may have been predicted long ago. Episode 10: Explore armageddon prophecies in this episode.)
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- there are 70 faces to 
) C
