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Post by alon on Apr 14, 2019 10:46:24 GMT -8
One of the biggest complaints, as well as a huge problem with Messianic Judaism is our trying to “Judaize” people, brow beating them into whatever kind of  compliance we espouse. Hardened legalism replaces simple obedience. We don’t so much walk with Adonai as we march with YHWH-Sabaoth, Lord of Hosts (1 Samuel 1:3). And it’s human nature that the insecure will try to make everyone else a clone of themselves. We all want to be the one calling the cadence.
The tendency is to keep the mitzvoth as a way to ‘cleave to God.’ “This is how I stay saved.” “If I do this He will love me.” This bases our relationship with Abishter on our own efforts. However if our identity is in HaShem, then living by His instructions in is in response to our halacha, our walk; our relationship with HaShem. The mitzvot are simply instructions for imitating Kadosh Yisroel, the Holy One Of Israel (Psalm 78:41).
While there are some absolutes, and the basics are the same for everyone, we must understand that each person will relate to HaShem in different ways. We grow at a different pace, and some things some people will never do. I hear many tell me “If it’s not in , it isn’t a commandment.” While I disagree with this view, I can understand it to a point. Others look too hard for “commandments,” and often fall into the same trap the religious leaders of Yeshua’s day and the later rabonim did, where they find the most unlikely excuses to build on a simple statement or a command and extrapolate a myriad of new commandments not found in scripture. At the other extreme, far too many calling themselves Messianic take their lead from the church fathers and find ways not to follow what clearly are commandments!
It is not to any of us to sculpt our own faith, let alone that of another. We can give advice, discuss scripture, share information, even follow a particular rabbi and otherwise influence and help each other. But in the end, we are all responsible for for our own walk, our halacha, our relationship; and our own faith should be a natural result of our relationship with Elohe Yeshuath, God of My Salvation (Psalm 18:46). Even in a particular synagogue where halacha is set for us, everyone’s personal halacha will stress different things.
We must first make sure we have our own priorities straight- relationship with the Almighty drives obedience; then we may gently (well, usually gently) help or lead others. However trying to sculpt others in our own image is a form of idolatry, plain and simple. It is also a lack of trust in HaShem and those who belong to Him.
For those here lurking, if you are afraid that you have to be a certain thing, at a particular level, or are afraid we’ll try to make you into something you are not; no, that’s not what we do here. We do have to set rules and parameters within which discussion will occur. Without those, the forum would descend into chaos. However in the past we’ve welcomed Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hebrew Roots, and every kind of Messianic to the forum. As long as they did not try to use this forum as a vehicle to push their agenda they were welcome. So will you be as well.
I encourage you all to join the discussion.
Shalom Aleichem.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Apr 15, 2019 15:00:23 GMT -8
\ I hear many tell me “If it’s not in , it isn’t a commandment.” Dan C I am one of those Dan has heard this from. Matt 5 is one of the reasons, I am in that camp. In verse 5 Jesus tells the lame man to "Rise, take up thy bed, and walk." the Jew's tell the man what he is doing is unlawful because it is the Sabbath. I do not believe Jesus would tell the man to do something that is against God's law. In fact in verse 14, Jesus tells the man to "sin no more" indicating he was to keep God's Law. So the law that the man broke in carrying his bed was not a law laid out in God's law regarding the Sabbath, rather it was one laid out by man's law regarding the Sabbath. We can not allow others to judge us as to how we keep the Sabbath. Only God's Law governs how we keep the Sabbath. However if a group of believers wants to covenant together and say, "We will not carry bedding about on the Sabbath." There is no law against them doing so. And God will bless it, if they hold to it. For an example of this type of covenant look Jeremiah 35 where the Rechabites, which was started by Jonadab the son of Rechad, were praised for holding to the commandments of their farther, Jonadab. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 18, 2019 20:03:35 GMT -8
\ I hear many tell me “If it’s not in , it isn’t a commandment.” Dan C I am one of those Dan has heard this from. Matt 5 is one of the reasons, I am in that camp. In verse 5 Jesus tells the lame man to "Rise, take up thy bed, and walk." the Jew's tell the man what he is doing is unlawful because it is the Sabbath. I do not believe Jesus would tell the man to do something that is against God's law. In fact in verse 14, Jesus tells the man to "sin no more" indicating he was to keep God's Law. So the law that the man broke in carrying his bed was not a law laid out in God's law regarding the Sabbath, rather it was one laid out by man's law regarding the Sabbath. We can not allow others to judge us as to how we keep the Sabbath. Only God's Law governs how we keep the Sabbath. However if a group of believers wants to covenant together and say, "We will not carry bedding about on the Sabbath." There is no law against them doing so. And God will bless it, if they hold to it. For an example of this type of covenant look Jeremiah 35 where the Rechabites, which was started by Jonadab the son of Rechad, were praised for holding to the commandments of their farther, Jonadab. That passage has intrigued me for a while. After learning more about the idea or order I think I understand why. His "bed" was like a prison rather then a place of solace and rest, which is clearly inherent to observing the sabbath. I think it reflects Yeshua putting life back into order. Not only regarding man and Sabbath but also dominion in a way. The man was kind of taking dominion back and in a way as he was no longer in bondage to his bed. It shows the right order. I think that's at least part of the reason He told him to "take up his bed". The man now had dominion over the bed rather than the bed having dominion over him. It's just really interesting on a lot of levels. So I think the same idea can apply to us and keeping the commandments in a way. If they feel inhibiting, or the inability to keep them even, then there's probably some issue with order. I do find it helpful to keep things prayerfully simple, focusing on scripture. That's where you see G-d'e hand and sovereignty. If we know we're doing our best to do what He gives us, then we know whatever limitations we face are right in G-d's eyes for us at this time. Then our life is a plea for the Kingdom because these are limitations He has put in place for now. I can't do this because You're not here. Maybe this is what we need for the most faith and dependence on Him. I think we here all have enough regard for the commandments that it likely isn't usually about priorities when we struggle. I think we struggle with knowing their place in our life in light of His sovereignty. Trusting Him with what we simply can't do or can't do right/completely, and understanding He is the one who makes the way, even in doing what He says. If we can't do it, we need to know its ok because in His wisdom, we need it to be that way. I think that's just how weak we are in maintaining a relationship with Him. It seems like it has to be based on need for us to seek Him. We are seeking Him, and so we encounter a lot of need. He knows how quick we'd forget if there was no need. He is taking care of us because the limitations of our circumstances really do keep the focus on Him and the need for His Kingdom. It increases faith in Him and strength to handle all the reality of our situation. We're in the midst of a fallen world. It shouldn't feel perfect. We just need Him, and we who are struggling just to do what He says while not really being able to in this world learn that more deeply I think. Somehow, in my mind, it ties into the image of this man being commanded by Yeshua to stand up , and pick up, and go carrying his bed and showing its proper place in his life - serving the purpose it was meant to. |
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Post by garrett on May 6, 2019 14:09:51 GMT -8
This is one of those "hot zones" where rabbinical Judaism can often (and has) destroyed the joy and grace of G-d himself. The more pressure I've ever had to fulfill things a certain way has always brought about more stress and less redemption and peace.
There is a big difference between willful sin and failure. And there's a lot of relief in seeing that Yeshua fulfilled all His required mitzvot successfully and perfectly, knowing that I never can and never will.
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Post by rakovsky on May 8, 2019 21:56:46 GMT -8
I can see that there is a potential inner struggle and conflict.
That kind of thing can be even true when it comes to Orthodox Christianity, by analogy. There are days assigned for fasting, but for many (and maybe most people), following the fasting strictly can be too hard. In the case of Orthodoxy, the Church recognizes this and generally doesn't take a strict attitude. They want you to fast in the morning before communion and that is a big deal.
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HaChamor
New Member
I'm awake, finally, and long before the sun comes over the horizon. There is still a far way to go.
Posts: 4 
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Post by HaChamor on Jul 10, 2021 7:23:06 GMT -8
In reading this post, a few things came to mind. The first thing is that the word or thought of "legalism" isn't found anywhere in Scripture. So, for others who try accusing those who strive for obedience to bring up the thought, the argument falls flat. Romans, ch. 14 covers this, as well. It's the "My way is better than your way" chapter. Colossians touches on it, as well. There are basics (Acts 15), and then there are greater elements to be seen (Heb. 6:1). Everyone is at a different place on the mountain. With any level that one may find themselves at, The thought of dogmatic compliance might come up. Doing a study on "dogma" would take up days, in order to be done properly, but the effort would be valuable. There are thoughts of "works of the law" that I think are rabbinic teachings that put further and further out of reach. These additional "requirements" might be alluded to as legalistic efforts of gaining justification. This leads me to another thought: "He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (ESV, Lk. 18:9-14) Legalism might lend itself more toward an attitude that is held by those who practice it. We see this in the parable, above. Legalism is more akin to self-righteousness. Just because one can enumerate their actions doesn't mean diddly. I once had a preacher ask me "How many people have you lead to the Lord?" Apparently he had led hundreds. My honest answer to him was, "None. I don't do the leading. I'm not into making converts, I'm more attuned to finding students." He got angry. He then asked me if I was "saved." I told him that I did not know, because in answering where I was or was not would have put me into the position of judge, which I am not willing to do. He got even more angry. I quoted what Rav Sha'ul said, when he wrote: "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God." (ESV, I Cor. 4:3-5) What I speak of here is the apparent legalism of what many of us came out of in living in certain ways and displaying certain attitudes. Tithing can be seen as a legalistic matter with many groups. Sunday attendance is another. Living under any number of church bylaws (over 40,000 of them) is problematic, as well. I'll cap my ramblings off with a simple thought that I share with others. When they start in on the legalism thing, I simply say, "My faith is not a product of my obedience. My obedience is a product of my faith." I then look to see if what I said registers in the face of whoever I might be talking with. For observant believers, it registers one way. For people held captive under the anomian influence, I just get blank stares. :-( |
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Post by alon on Jul 10, 2021 17:17:05 GMT -8
In reading this post, a few things came to mind. The first thing is that the word or thought of "legalism" isn't found anywhere in Scripture.
But Shaul saw this as one of the most dangerous ideas to come along. It baed our salvation on our own efforts instead of on God's grace. He spent a lot of his ministry combating this concept, but the only word he had was torah, law/instruction. That is why much of his writing sounds confusing. Many times when he says "law" he meant "legalism." Exactly! Like most problems, it is a heart condition. This one says "I can earn my own salvation, and so should you." It also ranks us in a hierarchy based on our works.
I've had antinomian pastors yell in my face as well. We by our very existence are a threat to their life's work, and when their scriptural snippets from the church fathers doesn't work on us, it upsets them greatly. And when one of us challenges their rating system, that also upsets them. I say "rating" system because it's not even a ranking. In their church, if they are the pastor they outrank me just because of their position. But this which you describe is a type of bizarre idea of how we will "rate" in the world to come! I've got one for them:
Matthew 5:19a (KJV) " Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:"
That should make 'em holler!Good one!
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Post by jimmie on Jul 16, 2021 8:59:15 GMT -8
Mark Twain once said "It is easier to fool a man than it is to convince him that he has been fooled. Nearly the entire body of Christ has been fooled regarding legalism, and is falls to us to convince them that they have been fooled.
Legalism: Strict and literal adherence to the Law.
Is there any other way to obey the law? Take “thou shalt not kill” as an example. How can I be lax with that law? Don’t kill on any day except the first day of the week? How stupid. When someone calls me a legalist, I agree with them.
Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah were legalist, else they would not have been thrown in to the fire. King Saul claimed to be a legalist (I Sam 15:13 ...I have performed the commandment of the LORD.) When in fact he didn't perform the command of the Lord.
It is a partial fulfilling of the law, while claiming full adherence that God detests.
Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
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Post by jimmie on Jul 16, 2021 12:53:27 GMT -8
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compliance we espouse. Hardened legalism replaces simple obedience. We don’t so much walk with Adonai as we march with YHWH-Sabaoth, Lord of Hosts (1 Samuel 1:3). And it’s human nature that the insecure will try to make everyone else a clone of themselves. We all want to be the one calling the cadence.
