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Post by mystic on Mar 30, 2019 5:53:54 GMT -8
Guys, since the Orthodox is waiting on the Messiah and the Christians on the rapture and 2nd coming of Christ and since Jesus said there's no way to the Father except through him, both the Orthodox and Christians can't be right so what's the Messianic's belief on this please?
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 30, 2019 9:20:54 GMT -8
This is another place I'm a bit confused Mystic as I feel like we've more than addressed this issue several times. We believe Yeshua is the Messiah and Orthodox Judaism does not. Therefore, in terms of Yeshua, we don't agree in the least with orthodox Judaism and believe wholeheartedly that they are wrong. Like Christians we believe Messiah comes twice. He already came once and died for our sins, and now we wait for His second coming when His Kingdom is established.
The rapture is debated amongst believers, but whether you believe in it or not, it is not the same thing as His second coming when the Kingdom is established or a determinant of Him as Messiah. Maybe that's where your seeing something confusing? Just in case, to be clear, the rapture is not the same thing as Yeshua's second coming. It is when believers are taken out of the world, and therefore takes place before His second coming. Again, this is an issue of debate amongst believers but has nothing to do with His Messiahship or second coming other than that it occurs before it. Some believe it happens to take believers out of the world before persecution, others (like me) believe it happens before the wrath of G-d falls on the world, and still others think there's no such thing.
Yeshua (Jesus) as the Messiah who already came once and will come again is not an issue of debate for those who believe in Him, including Messianic believers. I guess in short, I'm saying the Orthodox ore wrong as they don't even believe He's the Messiah. I think maybe your confusing the rapture with the second coming and that's where I'm struggling to understand exactly what you're asking because I thought we had kind of settled this issue.
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Post by mystic on Mar 30, 2019 10:06:54 GMT -8
Sorry for the confusion. My impression of Messianics is that they believe in BOTH Judaism and Christianity so to me taking the rapture of of it, it looks like it's either a Messianic has to believe in one or the other, not both.
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 30, 2019 11:56:53 GMT -8
Yes, the split in Judaism is what's confusing you. We believe Yeshua never should have been considered apart from the religion of Judaism, and that all saved must come to Israel through Him whether Jew or Gentile. So both Christianity and Judaism misrepresent Him based on this attempt to disassociate Him from His place as a Jew practicing Torah-observant Judaism.
As such, the biggest practical differences are that we believe in the relevance and place of Torah similar to Judaism, but don't believe extra-scriptural writings are Torah as they do. And we believe in Yeshua as Messiah similar to Christians, but we don't take Him out of the Jewish context thinking He started a new religion for Gentiles.
Conversely, we believe Yeshua is Messiah contrary to Judaism and that Torah is a necessary part of His followers lives contrary to Christianity.
The split between Judaism and Yeshua's followers is what you're struggling to reconcile. That took place thousands of years ago and in the meantime we don't really have a place in either Judaism or Christianity, but that just reflects that the world has tried to erase Yeshua's place as the Jewish Messiah.
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Post by alon on Mar 30, 2019 12:05:21 GMT -8
Sorry for the confusion. My impression of Messianics is that they believe in BOTH Judaism and Christianity so to me taking the rapture of of it, it looks like it's either a Messianic has to believe in one or the other, not both.
Like Christianity we do believe Yeshua is the Messiah, and has already come once and will come again. Unlike Christianity we do not believe He is part of a Trinity. Like Judaism we believe God is One. Unlike them we believe, as I said, Yeshua is the promised Messiah. We (at least most here) believe Yeshua to be a manifestation of the One True God of Israel. So while there are similarities to both, and indeed understanding may be drawn from both, what we believe is like neither Judaism nor Christianity.
Past that, Elizabeth gave you an excellent response, so I will leave it there.
Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Mar 30, 2019 12:12:52 GMT -8
Yes guys, you both have put things in better perspective for me, thanks! I will need to soak this all in then get back to you.
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Post by rakovsky on May 8, 2019 22:57:47 GMT -8
I suppose depending on how one defines the categories, Messianic Jews could count as either a group among Jews or Christians. Judaism demands  observance as well as some basic theological tenets. So if Judaism is defined broadly enough, it looks to me like Messianic Jews could fall within its scope. The rabbinical community as an institution historically considered belief in Yeshua to be a heresy, although there have been rabbis who did accept Him as the Messiah over the centuries. On the other hand, since it accepts the basics of Biblical Judaism as well as the TaNaKh, it seems to me to be a school or sect of Judaism, even though those ruling rabbis would consider it to be a heretical school. The question reminds me of the debate in the Book of Acts where the famous rabbi Gamaliel noted that there were several Messianic candidates in his own time with groups of followers. As a result, R. Gamaliel decided that Yeshua's disciples shouldn't be rejected by the community wholesale and punished because of those rabbis' rejection of Yeshua as the Messiah. Even if we look at the history of Messianic candidates, we can see that there are many different groups within Judaism, like the followers of Sabbati Tzvi as well as the followers of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. So by trying to look at the question objectively, it seems to me that if a person accepts Judaism's basic tenets as well as observance, the person's religious school would still fall within a broad definition of Judaism. |
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Post by alon on May 9, 2019 1:06:31 GMT -8
I suppose depending on how one defines the categories, Messianic Jews could count as either a group among Jews or Christians. Judaism demands observance as well as some basic theological tenets. So if Judaism is defined broadly enough, it looks to me like Messianic Jews could fall within its scope. The rabbinical community as an institution historically considered belief in Yeshua to be a heresy, although there have been rabbis who did accept Him as the Messiah over the centuries. On the other hand, since it accepts the basics of Biblical Judaism as well as the TaNaKh, it seems to me to be a school or sect of Judaism, even though those ruling rabbis would consider it to be a heretical school. The question reminds me of the debate in the Book of Acts where the famous rabbi Gamaliel noted that there were several Messianic candidates in his own time with groups of followers. As a result, R. Gamaliel decided that Yeshua's disciples shouldn't be rejected by the community wholesale and punished because of those rabbis' rejection of Yeshua as the Messiah. Even if we look at the history of Messianic candidates, we can see that there are many different groups within Judaism, like the followers of Sabbati Tzvi as well as the followers of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. So by trying to look at the question objectively, it seems to me that if a person accepts Judaism's basic tenets as well as observance, the person's religious school would still fall within a broad definition of Judaism.
Today we are a separate entity which is not bound by the Rabbinic traditions of the 1st-5th centuries which became modern Judaism. Nor are we bound by Christian traditions. We are made up of Jews who came to believe Yeshua is the Messiah but do not want to give up their Jewishness to worship as believers and Christians who've seen many errors in Christian biblical exegesis and traditions and who realize the absolute Jewishness of the early believers and the entire Bible, including the so called "New Testament."
Dan C |
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Post by rakovsky on May 9, 2019 7:32:24 GMT -8
Sure. I like the forum, so I want to contribute to some of the more recent threads. I suppose that there is a terminological issue. If "Judaism" is defined in a way that means not accepting Yeshua as the Messiah, then certainly Messianic Jews wouldn't fall within the definition. I think that Judaism should be defined broadly enough to include Messianic Judaism, but I know that a major portion of, if not most, rabbis would disagree.
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