Inadvertent Sacrifices to Idols

[alon]

I was in Ace, buying hardware, and they had this thing where you round up your bill so the change goes to charity; in this case Sacred Heart Hospital. So 32 cents, no big deal. I'd been in Sacred Heart many times for friends, family, ambulance runs, etc. I volunteered in their ER for my EMS certification. It is a good hospital. So ok ... except they, being Catholic, have statues all over. But there is one as you enter the lobby from one wing that is right around a corner. It is a life size statue of Mary, shawl over her head and across her arms which are raised and stretched wide. So the shawl drapes like wings. She is on a raised platform, so she is looking down on all who pass her by. 

The first time I approached that corner was from the blind side, andI had an uneasy feeling, like a malevolent presence. Then when I saw the statue, it looked for all the world like a perched demon poised to take flight. Now, if you look at it objectively she was a nice looking woman depicted there. But with what I felt before I even saw her it looked evil. And every time since, and there were many times, I felt something. Not as bad as the first, but the feeling never failed.So there is not only idolatry and graven images there, but evil masquerading as good.

Now anyone who knows me knows I don't have a Pentecostal bent, and I don't find demons everywhere, or almost anywhere for that matter. But there I am absolutely sure I was in the presence of one. 

So here's my problem: I had just finished working on my synagogues halacha, on the section that reads:

Anyone overtly sacrificing to another god will be asked to leave and not return:
Exodus 22:20 (ESV) “Whoever sacrifices to any god, other than the Lord alone, shall be devoted to destruction.
This includes placing food or libation, or other items, or money before an idol
Includes spilling some wine or juice to Bachus
Praying over food to or in the name of another god, asking it to bless the meal
Thanking another god for your blessings

I had just done the equivalent of placing 32 cents before an idol! And that right after working on that section of the halacha ... oy vavoy! And it's not the amount, it's the fact I'd done it at all.

So I probably won't be asked to leave, since it was inadvertent. But this goes to show that we must train ourselves to think differently. I did it without thought- it was just 32 cents for a "good cause." And I fell into the trap without a care in the world ... until after I got in the car and it dawned on me what I'd just done. Now I have to go see Rabbi. It's a good thing we don't do "penance!"

Dan (humbled yet again) C

 

[Elizabeth]

Well hopefully they use the money they get to go to the people being treated there as they said they would. It gets tricky, if you look at it your way. It's like there's no way out because almost everything you can donate to, at least locally, is somehow doing something non-biblical and furthering something unG-dly. If the wellbeing of people was in your heart and not winning the favor of some pagan god or saint, I don't think what you did is like sacrificing to a demon. If it is, then there's practically no escaping it unless you lose on compassion.

I just think trust G-d to use the money we give for the wellbeing of people properly, and to hold whoever accountable if they don't. Otherwise, there's no one to give to. Even someone on the street corner could use it wrongly but the alternative is worse I think. It just seems there's no end if I look at it your way. 

[alon]

Dec 31, 2018 7:19:27 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Well hopefully they use the money they get to go to the people being treated there as they said they would. It gets tricky, if you look at it your way. It's like there's no way out because almost everything you can donate to, at least locally, is somehow doing something non-biblical and furthering something unG-dly. If the wellbeing of people was in your heart and not winning the favor of some pagan god or saint, I don't think what you did is like sacrificing to a demon. If it is, then there's practically no escaping it unless you lose on compassion.

I just think trust G-d to use the money we give for the wellbeing of people properly, and to hold whoever accountable if they don't. Otherwise, there's no one to give to. Even someone on the street corner could use it wrongly but the alternative is worse I think. It just seems there's no end if I look at it your way. 

I don't really see this as an absolute, "Don't give to anyone because there MIGHT be demons involved." In this case I absolutely knew there was at least one demon there. That was the issue. However as I said, it is a good hospital. So if I give to a volunteer ambulance fund and they take people there I do not think there would be any problem. I served on a volunteer ambulance crew for many years; they save lives and always need money. And there are many other options for giving.

If I give to missions through my synagogue, I know that 100% of that check goes to missions. If I earmark the money for, say India, every penny goes to our people in India; and there is no adjusting the books. It is over and above whatever the synagogue normally sends to support them. 

Other organizations we have to be careful anyhow. Some take so much out for admin costs very little goes to actually help anyone. I give to a couple of veterans organizations. But some I won't give to- not because of demons but because their admin costs are too high. So giving is already tricky, but not because "there be demons." We have to give responsibly.

Another problem is tacit agreement. I haven't given to United Way for decades because they support things I do not agree with. One of their representatives once told me "But you can specify the money goes to a charity you like." I told him that was not the issue. They were big on getting employers to pressure employees to get a 100% participation. If I did not participate it took pressure off others who might just have given a blanket donation to get that 100% goal. Nothing to do with demons, but still irresponsible if I gave in and violated my principals. On the other hand, those charities they spoke about that I agreed with still existed, and still needed money- and just as I suspected they did accept direct donations, which by the way cut out the extra admin fees of United Way. 

So there are many ways to give. We don't have to be hard hearted, but we should have principals which are inviolate and which should guide our giving to make it as responsible as possible. And never give in to pressure to give. If they have to pressure you in any way, that to me is a red flag right there. I try to be generous, but not irresponsible. And I don't just see demons everywhere. But this is a case where I was not looking for one but was confronted by it just he same; and like I said it was even before I saw the statue/idol. 

Catholic charities do a lot of good. However they are run by an institution that has been responsible for turning God's Word on its head for 2000 yrs. Knowing this, would you still give to them? Nothing to do with demons. Just knowing this one fact, would you give to Catholic charities? I submit the responsible thing to do is to prayerfully put the money towards a charity you've looked into and which has reasonable admin fees and that verifiably does good work. It's not that difficult. Do a web search for "charity ratings" and there are several sites that investigate and rate charities. You can compare results and find something you are reasonably sure is a good place to responsibly give. And if in spite of your doing due diligence there happens to be a demon involved I don't think it will be held against you.

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

No I wouldn't give to Catholic charities, and based on your experience at this hospital, I can understand your point of view. But when it comes to hospitals, there only so many choices and Cathoilc hospitals are filling in what would otherwise possibly be a huge gap, especially being what seems to me the most powerful anti-abortion voice publicaly. I hate the institution of Catholicism, but I'm just not seeing other institutions stepping in to pick up the slack in healthcare in this country if they fell through. I wouldn't refuse myself or my family treatment there so it feels different to me generally - not your specific situation, just giving to a hospital. I've thought about this issue regarding giving blood.

[garrett]

Alon,

I've been confronted with those statues/idols in catholic hospitals as well. I always found them very creepy. The only charity I can think of where I'd consider giving is to St. Jude children's hospital. I think it's in Minnesota. Apparently they do fantastic work in helping save the lives of babies and children with cancer. But I don't know how much they take in admin costs.

Otherwise (like you mentioned) they have turned scripture on it's head......a Pope who is supposed to be the literal successor to the Apostle Peter. Huh??? (Pope Benedict was a member of the Hitler Youth too) Or believing that Mary was perfect like Yeshua, having no sin in her life. Or praying to "saints", in essence, praying to dead people. That is necromancy and it's evil. And the 800 pound gorilla in the room which is the wholesale corporate cover up of pedophilia and homosexuality among "priests". The vatican has paid out hundreds of millions in abuse cases worldwide.

Many cases are black and white as far as who to give money. Like Elizabeth mentioned, I definitely find common ground with their position against abortion. But that's about it.

[Questor]

Sometimes I think that the only way to get through this life in any way that can be considered at all blameless, and that only because of Yeshua's righteousness, is to walk in as simply as possible, and do only what Yeshua was interested in us doing...taking care of widows, orphans, the sick and those who have nothing. Doing even that even through a Messianic Synagogue I trust to use it to help the helpless is all I can stand to give to.

I have given away furniture to Goodwill, and food stores to an emergency group as I am preparing to move house, but it's only a positive way of using what I don't need or want. I have no idea, however, what they are worshipping with my goods. I hope nothing.

But I do not know how to be separate, and not end up hiding from the world. Everywhere I turn, the world and it's non-obedient, non-separate ways is washing over me like a tsunami. Moving from one state to another, from the country to the city will actually put me in more conflict with the world, but there are at least Synagogues to attend, even if they are not Messianic, and knowing other Jews, so long as I do not proselytize cannot be bad, and might even encourage me.

But I dislike not doing as Yeshua said...to give to those that ask of you...because there is always someone asking.

[alon]

Feb 5, 2019 13:34:39 GMT -8 Questor said:

If you look in Acts, whenever they gave it was to other Nots'rim. This and family is your first and only priority. In fact, an argument could be made you should not give outside these, and some would argue that even family is not a priority (I would vehemently disagree with them about family, but I know some that hold this doctrine). There is always more need, and neither you nor I are rich. So make it a little easier on yourself and hold mostly to these.

I do give to a couple of veterans organizations and to one Israel relief org. But those are minimal. Most of my "disposable income" goes to Messianic congregations we have in places where it is dangerous to be Messianic. Especially in Muslim and Hindu countries where they are the last to be hired and the first to be attacked. Makes it easy to brush off the telemarketers too! 

Dan C

[Questor]

Feb 5, 2019 21:26:58 GMT -8 alon said:

Feb 5, 2019 13:34:39 GMT -8 Questor said:

Most of my "disposable income" goes to Messianic congregations we have in places where it is dangerous to be Messianic. Especially in Muslim and Hindu countries where they are the last to be hired and the first to be attacked. Makes it easy to brush off the telemarketers too! 

Dan C

For a long time, I gave to ministries to reach people where no one is in lack of anything vital except Yeshua...but the Ruach can open those people's eyes without my help. The resources are there, in place, if they choose to look. Mostly they don't choose, and those that do can further those ministries with their own efforts, and without anything but a gift of time.

It has become more important to send money to support starving children off the streets...all in areas no one goes to in the Middle East, India and South America, and all because my Rabbi is prone to accepting invitations in terrible places where they don't want him to come.

The people don't want to be there either, but with the Ruach something gets started...not even orphanages, really, just some little children simply having food and clothing, and someone to teach them to read and write as well as about G-d, and their teachers following my Rabbi by Internet because he streams from his website where the Synagogue itself, although small, has enough for the Synagogue, so that all that is raised by those who watch from afar goes freely where it is needed without 501c's or indeed, anyone being particularly concerned that a few children are no longer starving.

No one is building ministries, and no one is proselytizing their neighbours, or interfering in any way...except to help those children, and perhaps others who come because they have need or interest. And as you say, saying 'no, thank you' to professional marketers raising money for people who are not starving and unclothed has become easy.

[liora]

Dec 30, 2018 15:42:21 GMT -8 alon said:

I had just done the equivalent of placing 32 cents before an idol! And that right after working on that section of the halacha ... oy vavoy! And it's not the amount, it's the fact I'd done it at all.

So I probably won't be asked to leave, since it was inadvertent. But this goes to show that we must train ourselves to think differently. I did it without thought- it was just 32 cents for a "good cause." And I fell into the trap without a care in the world ... until after I got in the car and it dawned on me what I'd just done. Now I have to go see Rabbi. It's a good thing we don't do "penance!"

Dan (humbled yet again) C  
Don't you just hate when that happens? I sure do. I always feel like I should have seen the issue clearly. I agree with you that we have to train ourselves to look at what is behind good deeds. I think that G-D would raise up what scripture says is right but we compromise and then we have the situation we're living in now. Much like how many times, there may not be a man who has stepped into a leadership position in a congregation so women jump in. Then people wonder how we have female supposed pastors/rabbis running the show and there aren't any fellas in the seats. You'll be sensitive to this in the future, I've no doubt. I'm always upset with me but then I'm glad that He opened my eyes to see it.