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Post by mystic on Dec 25, 2018 5:11:49 GMT -8
I would like explore this topic please guys which I have always had issues with. I broke off my marriage some years before coming to God so I did not know then what I know now. I now understand that should I ever get remarried that this time I will need to stick with it "for better or worse".
There are many marriages which should not have happened like a couple getting drunk and acting on a whim, going to Vegas and getting hitched. Also pre-arranged marriages e.t.c. My question therefore is why would God prefer a couple live in utter chaos for the rest of their lives?
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 25, 2018 9:34:16 GMT -8
He doesn't and if anyone repents in truth, G-d will work out the best case scenario based on the choices they've made and the circumstances they're handing Him for all involved.
However, there are just consequences to our choices in life. G-d will let us choose obedience or rebellion, but the issue of the one who comes to Him is then sincerity of repentance and faith. We suffer for our choices still but have hope in G-d knowing He'll overcome them on our behalf and forgave us - He accepts us. It doesn't erase our choices or circumstances, and He'll likely not overcome them in "our" way. But He gets us through them with blessing ultimately even if it's just us not making another sinful choice intentionally. If you choose outside His will, just expect more adverse consequences, likely even worse, that you'll have to again repent of and adverse consequences you'll have to live with involving you and others.
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Post by alon on Dec 25, 2018 15:35:01 GMT -8
What the Bible says about divorce: First off, the Bible is very gender specific regarding marriage and divorce. We must keep this principle in mind whenever reading on the topic. For centuries, some Jewish schools of thought interpreted “uncleanness” as “for any reason,” while others maintained marriage could only be dissolved for grave sins. Yeshua settled this dispute. In His repl in all the accounts He was specifically answering this question, “Can a man divorce his wife for any cause?” His answer was “No,” only for the reasons God allows. Rav Shaul would later expand on this subject, which is ample evidence that Yeshua’s answer is not comprehensive. But let’s start with  : Deuteronomy 24:1-4 (NASB) “When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house, and she leaves his house and goes and becomes another man’s wife, and if the latter husband turns against her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her to be his wife, then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to take her again to be his wife, since she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance.
H6172 indecency- ערוה ʻervâh, er-vaw'; from H6168; nudity, literally (especially the pudenda) or figuratively (disgrace, blemish):—nakedness,  , unclean(-ness).
Exodus 21:10-11 (NASB) If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
A husband has a duty to his wife to provide for her. We see this repeated in the Kethuvai Shaliachim: Ephesians 5:28-29 (NASB) So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church [assembly of believers],
This is a biblical principle that a man is to love his wife. This would seem to imply treating her well; not abusing her because she is weaker. There is a related passage in : Exodus 21:27 (NASB) And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth
In the above scripture Moshe referred to the relationship between a slave/servant and his master, the principle that physical abuse ends a relationship should also apply to marriage. If a woman, or man are being physically abused by their spouse, this is just cause for the marriage to be ended. This is written in gender neutral terms, indicating God does not expect a man or a woman to tolerate and live under physically abusive conditions. It is a bit of a stretch, maybe, but this would seem to be in accordance with Hillel’s 7th rule of scriptural exegesis, “devar hilmad me’anino,” explanation obtained from context. The total context, not just the isolated statement must be considered. The most complete recording of Yeshua’s comments on divorce is in Matthew: Matthew 5:31-32 (NASB) “It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Matthew 19:3-12 (NASB) 3 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?” 4 And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” 7 They *said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?” 8 He *said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality [Lit fornication], and marries another woman commits adultery[ Some early mss read makes her commit adultery; Some early mss add and he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery].” 10 The disciples *said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.” 11 But He said to them, “Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”
G3429 adultery- μοιχάω moicháō, moy-khah'-o; from G3432; (middle voice) to commit adultery:—commit adultery;
Thayer’s: to have unlawful intercourse with another’s wifeLuke adds to the statement by Yeshua: Luke 16:18 (NASB) “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.
Yeshua answered the idea of “divorce for any cause” by vehemently rejecting it. But this only addressed men divorcing their wives for frivolous reasons. He does not address reasons for a woman to divorce her husband. And it would be a mistake to say God nullified a woman’s right to be divorced from a man who would not provide for her, who withheld his affections, or who abused her. In English, adultery is a gender neutral term. In the Bible it is not. In both the TNK and B’rith Chadashah adultery is centered around a married woman. Literally, the only way adultery occurs is a married woman having sex with another man. Whether or not the man is married is irrelevant. He’d be guilty of sleeper-mongering, but not adultery. Yeshua, however better explains by telling men they are not blameless. He is implicit in his wife’s sin in that he caused her to sin when he divorces her for any reason other than sexual immorality. So the answer to your question "Why would God prefer a couple live in utter chaos for the rest of their lives" is, He doesn't. However the rules on remarriage are not some most people will do. So all I can say is consider the cost before entering into a divorce. But in cases where a partner is habitually unfaithful, or especially in cases of abuse, then you are under no obligation to stay in the marriage. Both of these tend to escalate, not abate. So if you've made an effort but are afraid for your or your chlldren's health or well-being, then yes, divorce is an option. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Dec 26, 2018 5:26:39 GMT -8
in cases of getting married being young and stupid, acting on impulse then finding out it's a mismatch with the couple not being able to co-exist in a marital way but rather live as two roommates, I think they have no choice but to live out their lives in misery and accept the consequences of their actions, not so?
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Post by alon on Dec 26, 2018 11:32:32 GMT -8
in cases of getting married being young and stupid, acting on impulse then finding out it's a mismatch with the couple not being able to co-exist in a marital way but rather live as two roommates, I think they have no choice but to live out their lives in misery and accept the consequences of their actions, not so? I don't know her or you, so this is just a suggestion. But if you have the kind of relationship where you can coexist in the same home but in separate rooms, why does it have to be in misery? You are both still human beings, with human needs. Conjugal relations are part of those needs. Just be aware that what men and women get from those relations, besides sexual release, are different things. She has emotional and relationship needs which, if you approach her with the idea you will learn how to meet those needs may soften her heart. The rest of the relationship, the mechanics (who cleans what etc.) you've apparently already worked out. But you don't necessarily have to live in misery as some kind of penance for a mistake you made while you were young. Dan C |
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Post by jimmie on Dec 26, 2018 15:36:32 GMT -8
Alon has done an excellent discourse on divorce that I would like to add a few extra dimensions to.
First, I would like to mention an example of a couple who married stupidly. Abigail (my father’s delight) and Nabal (fool). Abigail was in a very bad and life threating marriage. She did what was right and her life was preserved. See I Samuel 25 for details.
Second is a couple who survived Adultery. This was also a prearranged marriage. Hosea (salvation) and Gomer (vanishing). Hosea bought Gomer out her whoredoms. See Hosea for details.
Third a couple who narrowly escaped divorce. Joseph (the LORD increases) and Mary (bitter or strong). See Matt. 1:18-24 for details. The thing of interest here is Joseph and Mary were Husband and Wife even though they had not been together physically. They were espoused to one another or they were in a binding contract that required a putting away of Mary to break. What if divorce was only meant for the espousal period? Consider this while reading Lev 21:14, 22:13, Duet 24:1-3, Matt 5:31-32 and Mark 10:2-12.
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 26, 2018 16:47:02 GMT -8
in cases of getting married being young and stupid, acting on impulse then finding out it's a mismatch with the couple not being able to co-exist in a marital way but rather live as two roommates, I think they have no choice but to live out their lives in misery and accept the consequences of their actions, not so? I don't know her or you, so this is just a suggestion. But if you have the kind of relationship where you can coexist in the same home but in separate rooms, why does it have to be in misery? You are both still human beings, with human needs. Conjugal relations are part of those needs. Just be aware that what men and women get from those relations, besides sexual release, are different things. She has emotional and relationship needs which, if you approach her with the idea you will learn how to meet those needs may soften her heart. The rest of the relationship, the mechanics (who cleans what etc.) you've apparently already worked out. But you don't necessarily have to live in misery as some kind of penance for a mistake you made while you were young. Dan C He thinks he was stupid for marrying her and says he's divorced. I don't know how the living arrangements work, but if you're not in or trying to live in a G-dly marriage with this woman it's clear. No sex outside of marriage. That just sounds like using her. |
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Post by alon on Dec 26, 2018 18:07:47 GMT -8
I don't know her or you, so this is just a suggestion. But if you have the kind of relationship where you can coexist in the same home but in separate rooms, why does it have to be in misery? You are both still human beings, with human needs. Conjugal relations are part of those needs. Just be aware that what men and women get from those relations, besides sexual release, are different things. She has emotional and relationship needs which, if you approach her with the idea you will learn how to meet those needs may soften her heart. The rest of the relationship, the mechanics (who cleans what etc.) you've apparently already worked out. But you don't necessarily have to live in misery as some kind of penance for a mistake you made while you were young. Dan C He thinks he was stupid for marrying her and says he's divorced. I don't know how the living arrangements work, but if you're not in or trying to live in a G-dly marriage with this woman it's clear. No sex outside of marriage. That just sounds like using her.
We all "use" each other in a loose sense. If they are divorced but living together then there is still something there. If she did not remarry then they can still get remarried, as I recall. But you are correct, sex outside of marriage is wrong. Courtship outside of marriage is however ok. There is still something there if they can live together, so they might want to try. Or not. Like I said, I don't know them or the situation there. Dan C edit: I guess I should clarify, since "use" has such negative overtones. But we do "use" each other for emotional and physical assistance. Even coming here, we share knowledge and correct each other. And we get different perspectives on topics.So in a sense we are using each other to further understanding. So using people is not always a bad thing. Ideally all parties would get something from the exchange. I've taught several disciplines, and I can tell you that an instructor learns a lot just from the questions he is asked. We don't "use" in the sense of just taking and not giving, then discarding when no longer useful. That would be wrong. But use in the sense of helping each other out, sharing, or just being there when needed- that's a good thing. Dan |
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Post by mystic on Dec 27, 2018 5:18:13 GMT -8
That Dan is what I think is the case is in mis-marriages since you are forbidden to get divorced but what's the alternative? As in the case of my situation, the ex and I simply could not get along after a while, too many arguments for even the simplest of things and only way to avoid it resulted in myself having to resort to emailing/texting her for whatever we need to discuss. Talking in person always brings the tension, strife and arguments. No, sex is not in the picture with us or for me on the outside, this is not all about sex but more about two human beings not seeing eye to eye on most things and not being able to get along peacefully. Incidentally there are many couples in my circles who live as roommates but they each have their separate relations outside of their home, I tell them this is not right but.... There are a few couples I know who have true God filled marriages, I admire these couples, they are so at peace with each other and so very happy and compatible sharing the same interests, likes and dislikes, i have always wished I could be in marriage like that. . |
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 27, 2018 10:35:32 GMT -8
I guess for me the issue regarding maintaining a valid marriage in an unequally yoked marriage is are you working to include G-d in your life for your spouse's sake also? If you're motivated and seeking their salvation that is genuine love. It then seems like the marriage is still kept valid and G-dly even in all the difference because you're including G-d and truly loving your spouse. I do see that there could be a point as with Abigail though when it's just too much for you.
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Post by mystic on Dec 28, 2018 5:18:35 GMT -8
One can pray till kingdom come for some people to change and it will not happen, why God doesn't change them only he knows.
After ending things with my ex I had started praying for a companion who would be a match for me but first and foremost she has to be a person who has God as THE most important thing in her life but after a while I decided to switch gears. What I had done was ask God to be my ultimate sanctuary and let me not depend on ANY human being for comfort so if i have to live out the rest of my days without a companion so be it if that is his will. Yes I am human and have physical desires but whenever it comes to a head I always go to God for rest and peace and let me tell you, no human companion will ever give the peace and comfort that you can get from God! I know this from my own experiences. I have always wondered how Priests can live a life of celibacy, now I know.
To summarize I have seen some cases where the bad spouse changed and the marriage turned out good but I have also seen the opposite.
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Post by mystic on Dec 29, 2018 9:07:45 GMT -8
I see Jews swaying back and forth during prayer, on the net it shows:
A potentially simpler reason is provided by the Arukh Ha-Shulhan, written by Rabbi Yehiel Michel Epstein in the 19th century. He asserts that many sway during prayer because it improves their kavannah (spiritual intensity) and helps engage the individual in conversation with God
i can identify with that as that is exactly what I used to do when praying for my son while he was having Psychotic issues years ago when we went through the bad phase with his autism symptoms. I used to do when sitting at the edge of my bed, is there any requirement to this while standing?
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 29, 2018 10:18:49 GMT -8
I see Jews swaying back and forth during prayer, on the net it shows: A potentially simpler reason is provided by the Arukh Ha-Shulhan, written by Rabbi Yehiel Michel Epstein in the 19th century. He asserts that many sway during prayer because it improves their kavannah (spiritual intensity) and helps engage the individual in l conversation with God i can identify with that as that is exactly what I used to do when praying for my son while he was having Psychotic issues years ago when we went through the bad phase with his autism symptoms. I used to do when sitting at the edge of my bed, is there any requirement to this while standing? I have caught myself doing this naturally as well. I'm not sure, but it scares me a little because I'm not sure what's going on. We don't need to worry so much about the right way to pray mystic because G-d will lead you to that. You can depend on Yeshua and just focus on being sincere and humble. I hesitate to say humble because we need G-d's help about all things. So when you notice anything off in your heart, take it to him knowing it's wrong even though it's wrong. That's humility to say this part of me has to change and You are the only One Who can change it. Don't worry about doing it right because if you're sincere and humble in your prayers, you already are doing it right. I have read through some Jewish prayer books and it can be so intimidating - when you say this or do that, or what to do if you forget this act or statement and so on. I think I can see some rational for it when I remember Zechariah in the Temple the day he learned he would have John. It makes me laugh a little as it seems like they were all standing outside worried over Him while he was in the Holy of Holies. There's just something really beautiful and beautifully Jewish in that, that I feel blessed to read it. I love that passage because I feel like it gives me some insight into Judaism. As endearing as it is to me just to be blessed and see a little insight of their situation, I don't want to take away from how serious that situation was. I'm just blessed by it, and I'm saying this because I think maybe that's some of the context for the great concerns these prayer books indicate over saying and doing things right. It's a lot of pressure that G-d has put on Jewish people historically compared to me it seems in my eyes, which are admittedly very human, and so I'm not criticizing just giving what I think is context. That being said, I really think we dont have worry so much about that as much as where our heart is because Yeshua took all that pressure on Himself. Don't abuse it by being flippant but use it to help you recognize your need. If you do something "wrong" , what's really new or different? You were doing something wrong already. No one comes before G-d because they're perfect except Yeshua who covers us in His own perfection. That's why it was such a fearful thing for the preists on Yom Kippur. So it's good to remember that and approach G-d with fear. But G-d's there for you because you need Him, not because you know what you're doing or can do anything perfectly. Those can be the most honorable and humble prayers I think because the humility is then just natural and grateful rather than full of anxiety over your own attempt to be perfect. |
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Post by alon on Dec 30, 2018 16:04:47 GMT -8
mystic, good question. And Elizabeth, good reply!
I once asked R Reuel why Jews sing when they pray. He said it was because they want to use all their physical abilities when they pray and worship God. It links the physical, mental, and spiritual when worshiping. I think that is probably why they bend at the knees then bow slightly at the waist. But these are traditions. If God said do it, we do it. If tradition, we have options. We can not do them, but often I think we miss out on a blessing if taking the attitude we won't do any traditions. We can drive ourselves crazy by trying to do everything right all the time. And some of those prayers get pretty complex in changes for different days, bend here, bow there ... .
The best thing is to keep it simple. Just say the basic prayer. Then when you are comfortable with that, add other things slowly until you learn each one. And there is nothing saying you must observe every tradition. We are Messianic, not Rabbinical.
There is a beauty and a joy to saying prayers as the Jews do, however. It can add a degree of intensity to worship and supplication. However trying to do everything right all the time can be a distraction to those of us not raised Jewish.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 31, 2018 12:56:44 GMT -8
Alon has done an excellent discourse on divorce that I would like to add a few extra dimensions to. First, I would like to mention an example of a couple who married stupidly. Abigail (my father’s delight) and Nabal (fool). Abigail was in a very bad and life threating marriage. She did what was right and her life was preserved. See I Samuel 25 for details. Second is a couple who survived Adultery. This was also a prearranged marriage. Hosea (salvation) and Gomer (vanishing). Hosea bought Gomer out her whoredoms. See Hosea for details. Third a couple who narrowly escaped divorce. Joseph (the LORD increases) and Mary (bitter or strong). See Matt. 1:18-24 for details. The thing of interest here is Joseph and Mary were Husband and Wife even though they had not been together physically. They were espoused to one another or they were in a binding contract that required a putting away of Mary to break. What if divorce was only meant for the espousal period? Consider this while reading Lev 21:14, 22:13, Duet 24:1-3, Matt 5:31-32 and Mark 10:2-12. That's interesting, but that would mean no divorce for adultry after marriage though... |
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- there are 70 faces to 
, unclean(-ness).
