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Post by mystic on Dec 20, 2018 5:08:58 GMT -8
Or should I say when scriptures seems to be sending conflicting messages?
Like the OT showing "an eye for an eye" while the NT shows "turn the other cheek". I have this discussion on Jewish and Christian forums to hear from both sides but I am wondering since MJ's belong to both OT and NT, how do you handle this please?
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 20, 2018 8:12:45 GMT -8
Or should I say when scriptures seems to be sending conflicting messages? Like the OT showing "an eye for an eye" while the NT shows "turn the other cheek". I have this discussion on Jewish and Christian forums to hear from both sides but I am wondering since MJ's belong to both OT and NT, how do you handle this please? Both still apply, but Yeshua protects life by encouraging us and teaching us to be merciful and wise. For example those who hold to Torah or self as the means of redemption will in the end ultimately be judged in wrath. For those of us who hold to Yeshua as the means of redemption in the end will ultimately will be judged in mercy. The justice is fair and equal in both scenarios as Yeshua teaches those who belong to Him to act in mercy and forgive the way we have been forgiven. It's almost a test for us to gauge how well we understand what G-d has done for us. If we can show mercy and compassion toward an enemy, we are understanding a bit better the depth of what He has forgiven us. Then we can act in a way that expresses His heart and furthers hope. We don't just turn the other cheek. We turn the other cheek trusting G-d. Then there is the hope that the evil person will witness the heart of G-d that wants to judge in mercy and repent thus themselves acting to make things right. The outcome is still fair and just, but it's also life giving and contributes to real peace. So it's not conflicting, it's a choice. We can choose blessing or cursing. Yeshua consistently tells us to choose blessing. We will not achieve perfect justice in this earth. G-d will do that. In the meantime, the only hope any of us have is in G-d's mercy. Yeshua is teaching us a higher level of Torah living that is basically be merciful in hope for the sake of G-d's mercy, but we also know and trust G-d to act in justice in the absence of repentance. We still have both eye for eye and tooth for tooth as well as turn the other cheek as G-d is both wrathful and merciful. However, Yeshua taught that by turning the other cheek we are acting more pleasing to G-d because the heart of G-d rejoices in mercy and repentance. There's justice in both wrath and mercy, but we basically die to self when we turn the other cheek and love G-d and neighbor as well. We trust G-d more and live the way He wants and showed us to. But we aren't doing away with eye for eye tooth for tooth when we turn the other cheek. We are simply trusting G-d for the sake of justice while acting in away that's consistent with His will that is to forgive and show mercy. In turning the other cheek and showing mercy, they will actually be judged more harshly if they fail to repent because we are showing the truth they chose to rebel against more clearly. (Romans 12:20) They're not getting away with it. They're just being shown mercy in the hopes they will act on it and repent so that G-d's will can be done for them. It's a chance for us to express the mercy of G-d in the hope He won't have to act in wrath. We know in the end, there will be complete justice. But this life is a chance for G-d's mercy and so we can choose to help His mercy and grace abound. The motive for that is knowing the mercy He showed us, and so Yeshua is teaching us to love the way G-d loves us. In that way, we are protected from sinning ourselves and we overcome the ultimate problems underlying all these issues; selfishness, fear, anger and pride. It's just giving G-d and your enemy another chance in a way because you know the enemies are already in judgment and that's not good for any one- them, you, or G-d. G-d doesn't rejoice in the death of the wicked. (Ezekiel 18:23) Of course, it's one thing to understand and know something logically and an entirely different thing to actually act on it. I understand how wise Yeshua is in this teaching, but it is very hard to live it. That's why I always find myself at die to self a lot. I also know when I act consistently with what He has taught me, I have always been blessed, but turning the other cheek is one thing to understand and an entirely different thing to do. But if I remember all He did for me, then it's actually better and more just as what ground do I have to stand on to hold anyone accountable to me? When I look at it that way, it just takes the pressure off and I am glad to depend on G-d to handle the justice. But Yeshua wasn't contradicting Torah, He was just protecting us and G-d's will by teaching us how to further it. |
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Post by mystic on Dec 20, 2018 11:06:51 GMT -8
Very well put! I have had lots of discussions on this but yours is the best answer I have so far, thank you.
There was another I had raised among the Christians regarding if I should stick with or abandon my friends/relatives who haven't found God yet and are still living in sin. One person had showed me a scripture with Paul saying you should leave the lost alone until they are found or saved then you can associate yourself with them. I could not agree with that and even Jesus said he came to SEEK and save the lost so this in my view was Jesus saying the opposite of Paul?
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Post by alon on Dec 20, 2018 12:59:23 GMT -8
The Bible nor Yeshua contradicts itself. In Lev 24:17 where it talks about "an eye for an eye" God was setting standards for legal verdicts by the Sanhedrin. In Mat 5:38 where Yeshua refers to this ruling the Sanhedrin no longer had the authority to make such judgements. They were done in Roman courts and by Roman law. Further a Roman soldier could slap you, and he could require that you carry his load for a short distance. Raising your hand to him or refusing to obey could get you crucified. Always we must consider context when interpreting scripture: time, place, customs, and who is being addressed. While we don't have Romans occupying us today, the principle still holds. Raising your hand to a police officer will likely end in your kissing the pavement and being cuffed; and you'll be judged not by a Sanhedrin, but by the courts and laws where you live. It would help if you would reference the scriptures to which you refer. What scripture is referenced in the underlined art of your quote above? Dan C |
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Post by jimmie on Dec 20, 2018 13:59:21 GMT -8
my 2 cents.
I believe you are referring to Matt. 5: 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
As you read Matt 5, there are two things you need to keep in mind. One is who Jesus is. Jesus is God in the flesh. So the person who said “an eye for an eye” is the same person who said “turn the check.” They are both immutable laws. The second thing is that God’s law will not pass as long as heaven and earth exists. See verse 18. God’s laws are to be fulfilled by us as we follow Jesus (God in the Flesh) who showed us how to fulfill every jot and tittle of his law.
Now if you have broken the turn the check law you have broken the law. And if you misapply the eye for eye law you have broken it.
So what does an eye for an eye mean? If someone pokes my eye out. Do I get to poke theirs out.
23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. 26And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. 27And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.
So the person who made the eye or tooth perish had to give the servant his remaining eye as compensation. The eye for eye law is a type of restoration not vengeance.
If you think turning the check is a new idea put forth only in the New Testament read Lam 3:30 He giveth his cheek to him that smiteth him: he is filled full with reproach.
Matt 5: 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
It is easy enough to find thou shalt not commit adultery in the law but what about the prohibition of lust? It is in the 10 commandments also. Deuteronomy 5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.
In closing Matt 5 is calling attention the lesser known commandments that we are to keep. Christ is in no way adding to the Law. He is merely laying it all out to be observed.
Matt 5: 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 20, 2018 14:11:00 GMT -8
Very well put! I have had lots of discussions on this but yours is the best answer I have so far, thank you. There was another I had raised among the Christians regarding if I should stick with or abandon my friends/relatives who haven't found God yet and are still living in sin. One person had showed me a scripture with Paul saying you should leave the lost alone until they are found or saved then you can associate yourself with them. I could not agree with that and even Jesus said he came to SEEK and save the lost so this in my view was Jesus saying the opposite of Paul? I was actually thinking about this boundary today. We are called to have a holy influence on the world aground us. If i find myself afraid or intimidated to the point I resist mentioning G-d, that's not the place for me. Then I need to work on my own strength and faith and pray to grow into a better example that could hopefully influence that situation for the good when and if I'm called to. I'm not sure if that's what you're asking, but I thought I would share what went through my mind today as I was thinking about how I'm so isolated and now I'm trying to find my footing with G-d in the world around me. I think if you aren't going to have a holy influence in compassion in that environment because it scares you or intimidates you into not mentioning G-d, it's probably better you try to avoid it because that means it's only going to negatively impact. Some people are just more spiritually prepared or mature to handle more than others, but we're called to grow in faith. I think this will help me protect myself while also doing what He's called me to do and seeing where I need G-d to help me be stronger. |
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Post by mystic on Dec 21, 2018 3:21:18 GMT -8
No, I am not at all intimated in mentioning God to my friends/relatives but sometimes I have to be aware not to overdo it lest I turn them away and it defeats the purpose. What I am questioning is why Paul would say we are to leave the lost alone while Jesus said and did the opposite, aren't those two opposing scriptures? I will try to find and post both scriptures tonight or tomorow during my bible studies time.
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Post by mystic on Dec 22, 2018 6:22:44 GMT -8
Ok guys, this is the scripture the guy was referring to:
“Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”” (2 Corinthians 6:14–18) (ESV)
First, are these Paul's own words or God's words?
And this is the scripture from Christ own words:
9Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man too is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
Ezekiel 34:12
As a shepherd looks for his scattered sheep when he is among the flock, so I will look for My flock. I will rescue them from all the places to which they have been scattered on a day of clouds and darkness.
And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick…
Luke 15:4-7,32
What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? …
And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick…
Luke 15:4-7,32
What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? …
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Post by alon on Dec 22, 2018 9:56:25 GMT -8
Ok guys, this is the scripture the guy was referring to: “Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”” (2 Corinthians 6:14–18) (ESV) First, are these Paul's own words or God's words? They are Paul's words written under unction of the Ruach HaKodesh. God did not just give dictation. He chose the right men to bear witness to what they saw, what they learned, or what was told them either by other men or given by God Himself. These men as faithfully as possible recounted these events. In this case, this was a revelation by God to Paul which he then wrote in a letter to the synagogue (not church) in Corinth. So let's look at this with biblical principles in mind: Malachi 2:16 (NASB) For I hate divorce,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “and him who covers his garment with wrong,” says the Lord of hosts. “So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously.”
God hates divorce. Therefore we should never take the subject lightly, nor enter into divorce proceedings too quickly. But earlier in the same epistle to the Corinthians, Paul old them: 1 Corinthians 7:12-16 (NASB) But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?
So no, we do not divorce just because they do not believe. I would say however that the verses you gave are a proscription against marrying an unbeliever. There is however precedent for divorcing pagan wives in the TNK. The issue came up after the Jewish peoples’ return to Yerushalayim at the end of their Babylonian Captivity: Ezra 9:1-2 (NASB) Now when these things had been completed, the princes approached me, saying, “The people of Israel and the priests and the Levites have not separated themselves from the peoples of the lands, according to their abominations, those of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians and the Amorites. For they have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and for their sons, so that the holy race has intermingled with the peoples of the lands; indeed, the hands of the princes and the rulers have been foremost in this unfaithfulness.”
Marriages with people that worshiped false gods were forbidden in  : Deuteronomy 7:3-4 (NASB) Furthermore, you shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughters to their sons, nor shall you take their daughters for your sons. For they will turn your sons away from following Me to serve other gods; then the anger of the Lord will be kindled against you and He will quickly destroy you.
Idolatry was one of the reasons Judah was given into Babylonian captivity. Now they had returned, but they were falling into the same transgression. Ezra 10:2-3 (NASB) Shecaniah the son of Jehiel, one of the sons of Elam, said to Ezra, “We have been unfaithful to our God and have married foreign women from the peoples of the land; yet now there is hope for Israel in spite of this. So now let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives and their children, according to the counsel of my lord and of those who tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law.
So at a time when they were returning to the land and rebuilding the Temple, they once again purified the Jewish people as fully kadosh (set apart) to the Lord, doing away with those worshiping other gods. This required the men of Judah divorcing their pagan wives: Ezra 10:10-11 (NASB) Then Ezra the priest stood up and said to them, “You have been unfaithful and have married foreign wives adding to the guilt of Israel. Now therefore, make confession to the Lord God of your fathers and do His will; and separate yourselves from the peoples of the land and from the foreign wives.”
This has to do with purity of the Hebrew race as well as their not being drawn back into idolatry by their spouses. The issue of racial purity has long since sailed today. However the problem of an unbelieving spouse drawing believers back into any form of idolatry has not. So if the spouse is practicing idolatry and enticing a believer to do the same- if say sacrificing or praying over food to other gods for example- then there may be a biblical case for divorce. But still, do not enter into the subject lightly. I would make every effort to save the spouse first. Still, if you cannot sit at your own table without making a serious transgression (and eating foods devoted to another god is one of the worst), then divorce I would say is essentially your only recourse. Same if they are bringing idols into the home, saying pagan prayers, or any of the other openly pagan practices (marking themselves, lewd behavior, etc.). These are really unrelated scriptures. The first is Luke 19:9-10, which is from the story of Zacheus. Salvation came to his house because Yeshua visited and Zacheus repented. The second could loosely relate as it speaks of the lengths Yeshua would (and we should) go to in order to reach the lost. However no other biblical principles should be violated in doing so. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 22, 2018 11:39:03 GMT -8
Also regarding the verses Yeshua said, in several of those instances He was being criticized for associating with "sinners" by the Jewish leadership or He was condemning the Jewish leadership who was criticizing Him for the sake of people being hurt by them. There's a big difference between setting an example and reaching out to give people who want truth and forgiveness hope, and hanging out in clearly unholy situations seemingly ignoring or disregarding sin and unholiness.
If you find yourself just hanging out in unholy places comfortably with secularly minded or pagan people comfortably, you probably need to end that habit or limit that relationship because you are then agreeing with them. You are not sanctifying G-d either in truth or by example. In an unholy place with unholy people I think we should either feel compelled to reach out in truth to someone there, speak up for the sake of some one there, or like we have to leave. We never saw Yeshua just hanging out with anyone unless there was hope for repentance and or speaking truth. We need hope and truth ourselves so maybe we won't be the source of strength in all situations, but the people we seek to spend our time with then should be.
I haven't had to abandon anyone, but many have distanced themselves from me. I'm not sure if it's because of my beliefs or just the limitations they impose socially, but I believe G-d did it either way. I have abandoned many places, habits, activities, and such. That in and if itself weeds a lot of these issues out, but I haven't drawn any lines with my family. They just know I don't go out or do business on Saturday and that I disagree with Christmas and Easter and believe in a more biblically based lifestyle than them. Things like that.
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Post by mystic on Dec 22, 2018 12:21:27 GMT -8
I have had 3 of my oldest closest friends start avoiding me since last summer when I had told them that I will be limiting my time with hanging out and I will be pursuing a Godly life. That bothered me for a little while because I was counting on them seeing the changes in me and hopefully some of it might make them think and set them in the right direction. Now I don't bother about it anymore, I told them I am still their friend and will be there for them whenever needed and left it at that. I still pray for them.
The other close friends I stay on touch with but don't hang out with too much who know my walk, they are ok with it so whenever I am among them occasionally at their homes they know there are certain conversations, situations and events I will not indulge in so no pressure at all from any of them. One of them started going to church when I encouraged him to do so but he's a work in progress lol so will take a while for him to become consistent.
Good point on Jesus not "hanging out" with sinners.
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Post by mystic on Feb 12, 2020 4:40:26 GMT -8
Another what I think is conflicting scripture:
Mark 7:17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
So what's the deal here, are we to follow Christ's words above or God's commands not to eat pork and shellfish e.t.c?
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Post by alon on Feb 12, 2020 5:49:20 GMT -8
Another what I think is conflicting scripture: Mark 7:17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” ( In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.) So what's the deal here, are we to follow Christ's words above or God's commands not to eat pork and shellfish e.t.c?
Mark 7:1-23 (NASB) Followers of Tradition7 The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem, 2 and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed. 3 (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully [ritually] wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders; 4 and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they [ritually] cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the [ritual] washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.) 5 The Pharisees and the scribes *asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?” 6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:‘This people honors Me with their lips,But their heart is far away from Me.7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to [d]be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, [e]given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.” So here we have the context. These Pharisees were more concerned with their traditions than what was actually said in . They were arguing that because Yeshua’s disciples did not ritually wash their hands and utensils exactly the way they did, then the food was ritually impure. It was kosher food, good for a Jew to eat. But to these men you had to eat it the way they said was right. Otherwise it was “tumah,” ritually impure. The Heart of Man 14 After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, “Listen to Me, all of you, and understand: 15 there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man. 16 [If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.” Note: early manuscripts do not contain this verse, which is evidence of tampering with the scriptures here.] 17 When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. 18 And He *said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated [lit goes into the latrine]?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.) This may also have been a later addition by a scribe or Greek interpreter. It is totally out of place, not relevant to the rest of the text. Even however if it was part of the original document, it was not talking about “all” in the context of every food eaten by any men. It would have spoken of “all” as in all kosher foods. If it is kosher to eat, then your ritual, which is not in cannot make it tumah or taharah, unclean or clean. 20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.” So contextually Yeshua was comparing good food (not your neighbor’s doggone pig) which is still eliminated no matter how you washed your hands to what comes out of a persons mouth and what he does. Good food into the stomach still produces feces, and good instruction into men’s hearts can still produce evil thoughts and deeds.
A good example, Messianics can tend to be be proud that “We’ve found the truth!” No, we were called to and given the truth by a merciful God for the purpose of sharing that truth with others. How well will that truth be received from a prideful, boastful mouth? So the good spiritual food we eat then is defiled as it comes out.
The Pharisees, of all the sects in Israel at the time were closest to the truth in their doctrines. But the Rabbis desire to absolutely control the people by their traditions was defiling their witness. Ironically, this push to control was done out of a desire to cleanse the nation so haMoshiach could come. The effect was they were so focused on preparing the way for Him they didn’t recognize their Messiah standing right there talking to them!
Yeshua was and is God, and He NEVER contradicts Himself, from Genesis to Revelation. So if you see an apparent contradiction I suggest you start digging through scripture until it is reconciled. And a good place to start is always reading the verse in context. Context of:
* the entire passage
* the entire works of the author himself
* who is being spoken to
* the time in which it is said
* culture and customs of the time, place, and people
Context is everything to understanding.
Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Feb 14, 2020 14:24:21 GMT -8
Got it, makes sense, thx
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- there are 70 faces to 
