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Post by mystic on Nov 7, 2018 12:55:47 GMT -8
Hello all. So it's been a while since I've been active here. Reason being, since I was new to religion in general and being torn between Judaism and Christianity, I decided to go explore both religions separately to get more knowledge into each. So now after having consulted with a few qualified and very experienced Rabbi's and having dialogue with many Orthodox Jews and doing the same on the Christian side, I have some issues I need to make decisions on.
The results of my questions to both Orthodox Jews and Gentile Christians has resulted in most Jews seeing Shabbat as belonging only to the Jews [and converts] and the Christians seeing the Lord's day [Sunday] as the Christian's day of worship.
I would like to choose my own day for both rest and worship, dedicating that day to God. I am thinking of a Thursday as being the best day due to my circumstances So first question is, does anyone see anything wrong with this and if so, why please?
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Post by alon on Nov 7, 2018 14:58:48 GMT -8
... since I was new to religion in general and being torn between Judaism and Christianity, I decided to go explore both religions separately to get more knowledge into each. So now after having consulted with a few qualified and very experienced Rabbi's and having dialogue with many Orthodox Jews and doing the same on the Christian side, I have some issues I need to make decisions on. The results of my questions to both Orthodox Jews and Gentile Christians has resulted in most Jews seeing Shabbat as belonging only to the Jews [and converts] and the Christians seeing the Lord's day [Sunday] as the Christian's day of worship. ... While knowledge of Judaism and Christianity can be good, neither believe as we do here. We follow Messianic Judaism. Belief in Yeshua is enough to exclude us from fellowship in the eyes of Judaism, and belief in God's  is enough to do the same in Christianity. That is a bit of an oversimplification, as there are major doctrinal issues with both. Still, no more than that is needed in their minds. It would be a mistake to just place us on a graph somewhere between these two religions, thinking we fall neatly in place, taking a bit from each to make something new. It's a mistake many have made, myself included when I was first learning of MJ. Jews tend to be very protective of the things they see as theirs; those things, like Shabbat, which set Judaism apart from other religions. Christians tend to be protective of anything Jewish creeping back into their religious practices. It is not uncommon for them to call us "Judaizers" because we keep the Biblically commanded Shabbat and other practices. Actually yes. I see a big problem. The issue is not setting aside a day for worshiping the Lord, it is what day THE LORD set aside for us to worship Him: Genesis 2:3 (ESV) So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.
So at creation itself, God Himself took one day, the 7th, making it holy, set aside unto Him: Exodus 20:8-11 (ESV) “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
This command to keep the Sabbath is repeated many times in scripture, thus underscoring its importance: Deuteronomy 5:12 (ESV) “‘Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.
Ezekiel 20:19-20 (ESV) I am the Lord your God; walk in my statutes, and be careful to obey my rules, and keep my Sabbaths holy that they may be a sign between me and you, that you may know that I am the Lord your God.’We are told not to treat this day as we want to, but as God said. This would include chosing to worship God on another day: Isaiah 58:13-14 (ESV)
“If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath,
from doing your pleasure on my holy day,
and call the Sabbath a delight
and the holy day of the Lord honorable;
if you honor it, not going your own ways,
or seeking your own pleasure, or talking idly;
then you shall take delight in the Lord,
and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;
I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”Now it is true you can worship God any time. However what we are talking about here is a day each week set aside just for Him- the day He set aside for Himself! Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Nov 8, 2018 4:19:56 GMT -8
Thanks for the insights and yes, that is pretty much what I had expected and you have nailed it, choosing which day is key as I too deep inside see Saturday as the day for this. Just that being a gentile I don't wish to be a "copycat" doing things which does not apply to me, I think this at the heart of my issue. Since you are Jewish Dan, you may not be able to see things from my perspective.
I am very torn with this issue. Here I have some Rabbi's telling me things like the Shabbat is for the Jews, not the Gentiles/Christians and I should not blow a shofar or wear a Tekhelet or place a Mezuzah on my doorpost while some Jewish Pastors on like Daystar TV are giving Shofars and Mezuzahs in exchange for a donation. Also since there isn't a scripture showing Sunday as a Gentile's day to worship God or be his day of rest, this is all impossible for me as a Gentile to figure out what's what.
As for the scriptures on the Sabbath day, it goes back to who those scriptures are referring to, if god had mentioned "all Gentiles" are to be included then this wouldn't have been an issue.
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Post by alon on Nov 8, 2018 4:38:52 GMT -8
Thanks for the insights and yes, that is pretty much what I had expected and you have nailed it, choosing which day is key as I too deep inside see Saturday as the day for this. Just that being a gentile I don't wish to be a "copycat" doing things which does not apply to me, I think this at the heart of my issue. Since you are Jewish Dan, you may not be able to see things from my perspective. I am very torn with this issue. Here I have some Rabbi's telling me things like the Shabbat is for the Jews, not the Gentiles/Christians and I should not blow a shofar or wear a Tekhelet or place a Mezuzah on my doorpost while some Jewish Pastors on like Daystar TV are giving Shofars and Mezuzahs in exchange for a donation. Also since there isn't a scripture showing Sunday as a Gentile's day to worship God or be his day of rest, this is all impossible. Actually, I was raised Southern Baptist, and like most Messianic believers have struggled with these same issues. But here is the thing: God did not say those commandments were just for the Jews. In fact, since Shabbat was established at creation, there were no Jews, nor would there be for something like the next 3500 years! Shabbat was given for all men of all times and places and races. Shabbat worship is not copying anyone, it is obeying God. It's as I said, the Jews/Rabbis ave a vested interest in telling us not to keep the commandments. They see these things as "theirs," which makes them special. And to be fair, those sorry idiots you mention who make their heritage a cheap spectacle do fuel this resentment. They also take issue with us because we are not bound by Rabbinical Judaism and their excessive rules which did not really coalesce into a more or less unified movement until about the 3rd-5th centuries CE. We try to take our faith back to, as much as possible, what the 1st cen Notsarim would have done. So on the one hand they are angry because we copy them, and on the other they are angry because we do not copy them! You are not going to please men if you are following God. It's really that simple. Strive to do as He said, please Him in all things, then if possible don't offend the Christians and Jews. But good luck with that latter if you are doing the former. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Nov 8, 2018 6:09:43 GMT -8
But here is the thing: God did not say those commandments were just for the Jews. In fact, since Shabbat was established at creation, there were no Jews, nor would there be for something like the next 3500 years! Shabbat was given for all men of all times and places and races. Shabbat worship is not copying anyone, it is obeying God. You are not going to please men if you are following God. It's really that simple. Strive to do as He said, please Him in all things, then if possible don't offend the Christians and Jews. But good luck with that latter if you are doing the former. Dan C Yes, I can agree with that and we should please God and not men. Again my issue is knowing what applies to only the Jews and what applies to us gentiles or to everyone in general and you are correct, I will need luck to walk that very fine line between offending the Jews and Christians. So next aside from the day of rest, is what exactly as a Gentile I should do and not do on that day. One Rabbi said phones, computer and TV should not be included but what about watching only like a religious channel like Daystar so hearing the word of God all day or watching only Biblical movies or using the computer to do only bible studies and research? |
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Post by alon on Nov 8, 2018 6:32:49 GMT -8
Yes, I can agree with that and we should please God and not men. Again my issue is knowing what applies to only the Jews and what applies to us gentiles or to everyone in general and you are correct, I will need luck to walk that very fine line between offending the Jews and Christians. So next aside from the day of rest, is what exactly as a Gentile I should do and not do on that day. One Rabbi said phones, computer and TV should not be included but what about watching only like a religious channel like Daystar so hearing the word of God all day or watching only Biblical movies or using the computer to do only bible studies and research? First off, you need to quit worrying about not offending Jews or Christians. If you are Messianic, your very existence offends them! Worry first about doing what God said to do. Second, this is Messianic "Judaism." It is a Jewish faith. So as you progress in knowledge you will become more like the Jews and less like Christianity. But don't force it. Go at your own pace. Third, and this is very important; you need to quit watching TV and movies and religious channels. Those are businesses, not a spiritual movements. They will give you competing doctrines and a lot of false doctrine. Also quit listening to Rabbis and/or pastors. You've already noted how they give you false and competing beliefs. Dig into Messianic Judaism like you mean it. Go through the archives here and read up. Look for a good Messianic synagogue close to where you are. Watch the weekly Shabbat service here every Shabbat. You can't be dual minded about this. Either abandon Christianity, Judaism, and the commercial garbage put out by the entertainment industry and follow God's , or abandon MJ and just go to church. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Nov 8, 2018 7:29:12 GMT -8
All GREAT advice, thanks. I will will think on it and I will contemplate my next immediate steps.
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Post by Elizabeth on Nov 8, 2018 7:48:17 GMT -8
Do you accept Yeshua as your savior? If so your differences with these rabbis are greater than if you worship on Saturday or observe some of what they would consider for only them.
We do these things because we believe in Yeshua and we embrace and accept Him. He's Jewish and His way of life is Jewish. I'm not planning on defending what I do to anyone, but if someone takes an issue with me, it's going to get really problematic right off because I'm just doing what He did as best I can. That's my explanation.
The underlying truth to all of this is that the reason Jewish people don't take issue with us being called Christians is because it doesn't reflect the truth of Who Yeshua is enough to make Him someone they can't ignore. They can just not deal with Him. That's how far away Christianity is from the faith Yeshua lived.
Also, we are bringing up the very issues He did by what we do because their rabbinical traditions have added to the word of G-d and are at times even inconsistent with it. For example, Yeshua pointed out that G-d commands people to honor their father and mother. It's the first commandment with a promise directly related to salvation as living in the land is a physical type of salvation for Israel. ( This is my understanding, I'm confident in it, but I invite feedback if I'm wrong.) Regardless, living in the land is a fundamental goal of Judaism. Anyway, despite this commandment that directly related to the will of G-d somehow, the Temple leaders told people they could donate to the Temple rather than supporting their parents as the priority. So money that technically should go to your parents and honor their place in your life, they said could go to the Temple. Do you see how that's not only inconsistent with G-d's word but is perverted? G-d Himself says honoring your parents leads to His will and what I believe reflects a physical level of salvation that's represented in the very Temple they used to undermine it, but they put either more faith or more priority on money than G-d's own word.
Another issue was with the Sabbath, the defining characteristic of G-d'a people you're struggling with. G-d's is loving and merciful. Yet some of the Jewish leaders were angry and vengeful with Yeshua for healing (working according to them) on the Sabbath. Now does that reflect G-d's heart or the reason He gave the Sabbath. He gave it to have fellowship and rest with His people, To rejoice in His goodness and works. Judaism had gotten to a place where it was no longer reflecting the heart of G-d or the intent of the commandments, and Yeshua pointed this out.
As a result of these healings, people were able to truly rest and worship for maybe the first time in their lifes. They got to be in the Temple and people could celebrate and rejoice over fellowship and the work of G-d. That's the whole intent of the Sabbath. Meanwhile, these leaders who criticized Yeshua for working on the Sabbath, were effectively murdering people with hate in their heart including jealousy and plotting to have Yeshua done away with on the Sabbath. So imagine that it's a time designated to rejoice in G-d, G-d meets you, but the teachers of your religion try to forbid it because of jealousy and hate. This is what the rabbinical commandments, or the heart they were being kept in was leading to. They were actually distancing people from G-d.
Our beliefs challenge people mystic, but that's because of the truth of Yeshua and what He's doing and continuing through us. He challenged people but He saves people and defends the truth in doing it. We're doing a little bit of that just in what we do so many people don't like it and that's what your experiencing I think.
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Post by mystic on Nov 8, 2018 8:29:47 GMT -8
Judaism had gotten to a place where it was no longer reflecting the heart of G-d or the intent of the commandments, and Yeshua pointed this out. Our beliefs challenge people mystic, but that's because of the truth of Yeshua and what He's doing and continuing through us. He challenged people but He saves people and defends the truth in doing it. We're doing a little bit of that just in what we do so many people don't like it and that's what your experiencing I think. You have accurately identified with me to some extent Elizabeth. Sometimes I seem to rub people the wrong way with my beliefs. One Jewish woman told me "maybe my soul is destined to be Jewish" as I am more into Judaism than Christianity [religion I mean]. Actually I see many flaws in the Christian religion so a lot of it is a turn off for me. I even have trouble with some things in the NT. I see Jesus as Jewish and nothing else and yes I too have contemplated observing and celebrating all of the Jewish Holy festivals and days because he did it but just how to do so being a gentile is another issue I am working on. |
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Post by mystic on Nov 8, 2018 9:18:38 GMT -8
I found a nice article here on the Sabbath illustrating your point Dan:
redacted: the site as well as the artical teaches things which are against the SoF here. Dan
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Post by alon on Nov 8, 2018 9:47:02 GMT -8
mystic, I had to redact that article because of their Two and other Christian teachings. It did make some of the points I did, but also others incompatible with what we teach here. This is what I mean about bad doctrine being taught though. Mixed in with a lot of good doctrine, we don't tend to notice the bad and so accept it as well. You also asked about keeping the feasts of the Lord. We keep those and do not keep the pagan feasts of Christianity. Keeping a pagan feast is the same as worshiping a pagan god or gods. However for those not raised with it, and for those without a supporting community or family, keeping the commanded feasts can be a daunting thing. Start out by marking the days as holy, set apart to HaShem just as is the Sabbath. Start slow, adding to your worship every year. And expect to make mistakes. Don't beat yourself up over them, just when they become obvious to you repent and do better next year. Also some things you may not be able to do. I used to find a demonstration seder as close to Passover as I could and attend that. Then I would mark the day itself as holy, even though I could not partake in a seder on that day. Understand too that those feasts, including Shabbat are kept on a Biblical calendar, meaning a day is as God called it at creation, sundown to sundown (not midnight- the witching hour- to midnight as on our Gregorian calendars); and this can cause confusion. I got caught one year ending Unleavened Bread a day early due to confusion. It wasn't intentional, but still I repented and asked for help getting it right from then on. So far I have been able to do so. What I am saying is don't make this hard on yourself. Allow yourself to make mistakes. Allow that you don't know how to keep these feasts "right." Allow that even when you do know, circumstances may prevent it. Learn and grow each year. Rest in His grace and enjoy the feasts! Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Nov 9, 2018 5:45:08 GMT -8
No worries on the article. I will address the feasts at a later time. Right now I want to try to get the Sabbath procedures right but thanks for the heads up on making mistakes e.t.c.
The word "rest", I am having trouble with. I can't see my restless self simply lying down on the couch on a Saturday until 6pm. I have always envisioned myself on the Holy day attending a service, spending quality time in solitude at home deep in prayer and meditating on the word, communicating with the the Father and Jesus and doing God's work. The latter is what I need clarity on as I would like to do some volunteer work for a Church, Synagogue, maybe helping out in a Soup kitchen or helping a needy person or family in some way, would this be going against Sabbath rules? Jesus did good on the Sabbath so I see no reason why I should not do this.
Way I see it, I would be much more physically rested if I were out doing some good than being restless at home frustrating myself. In other words, doing something physically for God on the outside would be good therapy for me mentally and good physically my body.
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Post by alon on Nov 9, 2018 12:47:35 GMT -8
No worries on the article. I will address the feasts at a later time. Right now I want to try to get the Sabbath procedures right but thanks for the heads up on making mistakes e.t.c. The word "rest", I am having trouble with. I can't see my restless self simply lying down on the couch on a Saturday until 6pm. I have always envisioned myself on the Holy day attending a service, spending quality time in solitude at home deep in prayer and meditating on the word, communicating with the the Father and Jesus and doing God's work. The latter is what I need clarity on as I would like to do some volunteer work for a Church, Synagogue, maybe helping out in a Soup kitchen or helping a needy person or family in some way, would this be going against Sabbath rules? Jesus did good on the Sabbath so I see no reason why I should not do this. Way I see it, I would be much more physically rested if I were out doing some good than being restless at home frustrating myself. In other words, doing something physically for God on the outside would be good therapy for me mentally and good physically my body. The feasts should be addressed as they come up. Since they are not all the time, it's easier to do that way. And like I said, you don't have to get it all correct right off the bat. You learn a bit more each year. The thing about them is they are a real joy to keep, even if you don't have a group to share with. With a group they can be far more joyful tan the holidays you are used to. While we're on that topic, not all the holidays are bad. There's nothing wrong with Thanksgiving, for example, though it does take on even more meaning the more you are into MJ. 4th of July is ok too. Birthdays are sort of iffy- some still do them, some don't. I don't for the most part, but I will still go to my grandkids birthday parties. It's a mitzvah. Working in a soup kitchen on Shabbat would also be a mitzvah. But I'm not sure it is a good thing. Generally working on Shabbat falls under the covering of a mitzvah if there is no benefit to you other than that of helping someone else; it cannot be done on another day; you are the only one who can help. You'll have to be the judge of those things. If they are having problems staffing the line on Saturdays this might be a good thing. I certainly empathize with you on this. I too find it hard to do 'nothing.' I once told my Rabbi that Shabbat was like a big hole in my week. The synagogue is way too far for me to go to other than on some of the feasts, so other than Erev Shabbat, when the rabbi comes to a town close enough for me to attend, I have a day of doing 'nothing.' I'm not good at meditation, but I do get a lot of studying done every Shabbat. Helping family you'd have to decide on a case by case basis. I've found that, while helping family is rewarding in many ways, it can also cause problems. Suddenly, once you've broken Shabbat to help, you find more things are scheduled on Shabbat and they expect you'll compromise your values for them. After all, you did it then ... The enemy is always looking for a crack in your armor. But yes, there are times when family needs help that you should step up and help. It all gets a bit easier to deal with over time as you learn more, as others see you are serious about what you are doing, and as you get more used to making these decisions. Dan C |
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Post by alon on Nov 9, 2018 17:11:55 GMT -8
mystic, this week's par'shah deals some with your questions. Doing the weekly readings is a good way to learn, as well as following the writeups here on the forum. Ben Avraham will probably send in his writeup either tomorrow or Sunday. Here's the link to my writeup: theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/4554/6-parshah-tol-dot-generationsYou should keep an eye on these as others sometimes send their thoughts along in the thread. For now, Shabbat Shalom! Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Nov 13, 2018 4:59:19 GMT -8
Working in a soup kitchen on Shabbat would also be a mitzvah. But I'm not sure it is a good thing. Generally working on Shabbat falls under the covering of a mitzvah if there is no benefit to you other than that of helping someone else; it cannot be done on another day; you are the only one who can help. You'll have to be the judge of those things. If they are having problems staffing the line on Saturdays this might be a good thing. I certainly empathize with you on this. I too find it hard to do 'nothing.' I once told my Rabbi that Shabbat was like a big hole in my week. The synagogue is way too far for me to go to other than on some of the feasts, so other than Erev Shabbat, when the rabbi comes to a town close enough for me to attend, I have a day of doing 'nothing.' I'm not good at meditation, but I do get a lot of studying done every Shabbat. Helping family you'd have to decide on a case by case basis. I've found that, while helping family is rewarding in many ways, it can also cause problems. Suddenly, once you've broken Shabbat to help, you find more things are scheduled on Shabbat and they expect you'll compromise your values for them. After all, you did it then ... The enemy is always looking for a crack in your armor. But yes, there are times when family needs help that you should step up and help. It all gets a bit easier to deal with over time as you learn more, as others see you are serious about what you are doing, and as you get more used to making these decisions. Dan C Yes Dan, doing nothing on a Saturday will certainly be a challenge for me, no issues after 6pm on a Friday. I have been toying with an idea for a couple of years now. There is a guy with a local church close by here who does charity work on Saturdays, clothing drives, mentoring and ministering to youth. i have always wanted to be a part of it in any way I can help and include maybe computer classes for kids. Thing is God may see this as work and not rest but this as mentioned will be good physical and mental therapy for me so definitely not work at all the way I see it. The only other main issue I will have is we do groceries every 2nd Saturday because I don't drive and my wife leaves for work from 6.30am and gets back home between 8-9pm so that throws out Mon-fri which leaves only Saturday as she's in Church on Sunday morning and in the Choir and all that and she rests on Sunday afternoon/evening. It would not be fair for me to leave the grocery shopping to her alone as some of it is very heavy so i don't know what to do about this situation. |
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- there are 70 faces to 
