49. Par'shah Ki Tetze, When You Go Forth

[alon]

This week’s readings:

Date of reading- Aug 25 2018/ 14 Elul/ 6-14-5778

Name of Par’shah- Ki Tetze, When You Go Forth

Par’shah- Deu 21:10 – 25:19

Haftara- Isaiah 54:1-10

Brit Chadashah-


D’rash: Our par’shah this week is a listing of rules, or laws, if you will. But what is the purpose of the “law” in ? Well, these “laws” are better thought of as “instructions;” and these instructions are written so that we have clear choices. Ignore them and be separated from God, or obey and be close to and blessed by God. We enter into a relationship with God as we become קְדֹשִׁים kedoshim, set apart ones:

Vayikra 11:44 (OJB) For I am Hashem Eloheichem; ye shall therefore set yourselves apart as kodesh, and ye shall be kadoshim; for I am kadosh; neither shall ye make your nefashot tamei with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon ha’aretz.

Baker’s Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology
Sanctification
The generic meaning of sanctification is "the state of proper functioning." To sanctify someone or something is to set that person or thing apart for the use intended by its designer. … In the theological sense, things are sanctified when they are used for the purpose God intends. A human being is sanctified, therefore, when he or she lives according to God's design and purpose.

Our halacha, our walk with God is to be as close as that of husband and wife who are sanctified for each other:

Isaiah 54:5 (ESV) For your Maker is your husband,
the Lord of hosts is his name;
and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer,
the God of the whole earth he is called.

Mattityahu 19:6 (OJB) So they are no longer shnayim (two) but basar echad (one flesh). Therefore, whatever Hashem joined together, let no man divide asunder.

John 10:28 (ESV) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Contemporary Judaism in their doctrine of rejecting Yeshua tends to lean more toward the legalist view, striving to obey the letter of the law. And they do so admirably:

Rabbi Avi Weiss The Meaning of the Word Kadosh May 21, 2016
The mainstream Jewish approach to kedusha … Every aspect of human physical activity is to be sanctified. This, … is the goal of the ish halakha (halakhic man). To apply Jewish law to every aspect of life, ennobling and yes, “kedushifying” our every endeavor.

However is this enough?

John 5:39-47 (ESV) You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from people. But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

Apparently there is more. Those who reject Yeshua as haMoshiach stand in danger of missing the mark eternally, despite their obedience and even the fact they love El Elohe Yisroel. I’ve said many times I do not know where the line is demarcating eternal salvation or damnation for either Jew or Gentile. But I will say that the further from you are and the further from accepting the Anointed One of Yisroel the more you are in danger of missing the mark.

We are told who will and will not enter the kingdom; who exactly is the Bride of the Christ:

Revelation 21:8,9b-12, 14 (ESV) But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” … “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— … And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. … But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

We are to love God:

Deuteronomy 6:5 (ESV) You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

And we are to be obedient to His :

John 14:15 (ESV) “If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

However we are also told there is only one name by which we may obtain salvation:

Acts 4:11-12 (CJB) “This Yeshua is the stone rejected by you builders which has become the cornerstone. There is salvation in no one else! For there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by whom we must be saved!”

Just a side note: Christian theology generally sees this as referring to all Israel rejecting Yeshua. However, while Peter is addressing all Israel in the passage, he specifically addresses the “rulers, elders and -teachers assembled in Yerushalayim, along with ‘Anan the cohen hagadol, Kayafa, Yochanan, Alexander and the other men from the family of the cohen hagadol” as the “builders” who have rejected their cornerstone (vss 5-6).

Nonetheless, we see here three keys to our salvation; loving God, walking in His , and accepting His Annointed One, Yeshua.

I might add that the Jewish people see salvation not only as a personal thing, but in terms of a national salvation as well. We might be well advised to take this view ourselves, because when a nation rejects God it will be judged, as we’ve seen throughout the Bible.


Mekorot: Rabbi Avi Weiss, Baker’s Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology, Rav S, my father and others

[alon]

This has been a pretty bad week for me in a lot of ways, and I struggled with this par'shah from the outset. I finished it much later in the week than I usually do and really was not that satisfied with it. However when I sent it to Mark he pointed out that it was a pretty good "plan of salvation" from a Messianic perspective. I honestly had not seen that until he pointed it out, but he was correct. We had a pretty good Erev Shabbat just parsing out this par'shah for an hour and a half tonight. Rabbi is still in Mexico, so it it was just the two of us again. But I think I had help from on high with this one and didn't even know it! It could use some polishing, but I am not still disappointed in it. Anyhow, I hope you all get something out of these. They are usually a joy to do, often bringing me closer to HaShem as I write them. Mark has the same experiences on his weeks. We are almost done with this year, but both of us are committing to do another year of the same, only I will have the even numbered ones next year and Mark will have the odds. We've been trying to find someone to commit to doing the ones for the feast days, but so far no luck.

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

It seems like the law can either kind of point you toward yourself or toward G-d depending on your heart and whether you recognize your complete need and dependence on G-d. So He kind of took away the Torah I think when He destroyed the Temple and dispersed His people, but this inability to keep Torah should drive us to seek grace, which points us to G-d. I think all this is about seeking Him.
       
So those who seek Him truly will find Him, and they will be grown to a place that won't dismiss any portion of His Word. G-d's answer to this wasn't forget the Torah, and it also wasn't just come up with your own rules and do the best you can. In all this, the answer He gives us is His Spirit through the grace and redeeming sacrifice of Yeshua Who makes us Temples of the living G-d with a circumcised heart. Yeshua saves us and His Spirit keeps us through the heart of His Torah. Otherwise we can't get to G-d. There is grace through Yeshua. Otherwise we would be consumed as there was only one time a year that one person could even come into the Holy of Holies so how can we even begin to reside with G-d? There has to be more to grace than keeping Torah based on this reality. Torah is a source of grace that brings us to G-d with great restriction, but it doesn't accomplish restoration to exist with Him as Yeshua did.

I don't know. This is just my understanding, based on my learning about the idea of order in Judaism. This I believe ultimately has to do with order for both Jews and Gentiles. Both Torah and grace can be abused if we don't understand our complete dependence on G-d. This is where Yeshua accomplishes what we can't. We can't order our hearts, minds, and souls rightly. G-d has to because every blessing He gives can be misapplied to give us a false sense of self-reliance and ability. Just because G-d gives us an answer to properly handle our sin doesn't mean we can handle sin. So now, to drive us back to Him, we can only keep the Torah through Him.
 
Meanwhile, He has achieved an order in our keeping it.  He humbled us and loved us unconditionally in  overcoming our sin, and He lifts us up by proper praise in His Spirit to be with Him. All this is done through the Spirit that is given through Yeshua. I'm trying to say thst basically Yeshua presents us before G-d in order. He orders our hearts, minds, and souls to be with G-d. Further, if He doesn't, we can do nothing to please G-d and we will ultimately be consumed in wrath because we will all have to come before G-d. Anyway the result of this in this life, I believe, is keeping the heart of His Torah while deeply desiring to also keep the letter of it. That is His Kingdom. 

G-d knows what He's doing in all of this, and the revelation of Him and His way to us is really about how little we can know, handle,accomplish, and understand- showing us what we do, what we need to do, and what we can't do.  It can come across as cruel if we let hasatan twist it; if you don't see it being about driving us back to Him as in the beginning -complete blissful dependence.
He's bringing us back to the beginning but with purity and love, gratitude and joy, and understanding so we will be truly content - no more questioning His perfect character and love. Then, we can truly worship G-d in the right heart and exist with Him in the way He made us to. This is how I understand things at this point anyway; there is blessing in our incomplete and lacking circumstances. Somehow, it just gives us spiritual  understanding we have to experience to accept and come to terms with. We need G-d and we either happily accept that it or we rebell against it. Everything He gives us is ultimately about that, but those who seek G-d set themselves apart in that they not only agree with Him that they need Him. They just want Him. I think that's where we are, not refusing either Torah or Yeshua somehow, and that's why this life is so hard for us. We are just wanting His Kingdom. But it's good to feel like that because it does show Him that He is needed, wanted, and loved. This post turned out differently than I was planning and much longer, but basically this is how I have come to terms with things in my life. If it doesn't do anything, at least it shows Him that. :) 

[alon]

Elizabeth, I am having a bit of trouble following your thought process here, but it sounds like you end up pretty close to what I was saying. However if I misinterpret something let me know:

Aug 26, 2018 10:21:10 GMT -7 Elizabeth said:
It seems like the law can either kind of point you toward yourself or toward G-d depending on your heart and whether you recognize your complete need and dependence on G-d. So He kind of took away the I think when He destroyed the Temple and dispersed His people, but this inability to keep should drive us to seek grace, which points us to G-d. I think all this is about seeking Him.

Yes, it is all about seeking Him. But is our guide, our instructions for this endeavor. When He dispersed His people God did not do away with , He sent it out into the world at large!

So those who seek Him truly will find Him, and they will be grown to a place that won't dismiss any portion of His Word. G-d's answer to this wasn't forget the , and it also wasn't just come up with your own rules and do the best you can. In all this, the answer He gives us is His Spirit through the grace and redeeming sacrifice of Yeshua Who makes us Temples of the living G-d with a circumcised heart. Yeshua saves us and His Spirit keeps us through the heart of His . Otherwise we can't get to G-d. There is grace through Yeshua. Otherwise we would be consumed as there was only one time a year that one person could even come into the Holy of Holies so how can we even begin to reside with G-d? There has to be more to grace than keeping based on this reality. is a source of grace that brings us to G-d with great restriction, but it doesn't accomplish restoration to exist with Him as Yeshua did.

Not all who seek God will find Him. As you say, those who insist on doing it their own way will, like Nadab and Abihu, be consumed in the fire (Lev 10). In God tells us how to find Him, how to worship Him, and how to treat others. Most who insist that is done away with and depend solely on grace will miss the mark. Grace is not an excuse to perform "I Did It MY Way" before the throne. 

And there was grace all through the TNK. Noach found grace in God's eyes (Gen 6:8). Without grace none of the Patriarchs would have lived long, and Daniel and his friends certainly had grace. And what about Melech Dovid? Was he not given a double dose of grace when he fell on his face and repented at the prophet Nathan's words? 

... This I believe ultimately has to do with order for both Jews and Gentiles. Both and grace can be abused if we don't understand our complete dependence on G-d. This is where Yeshua accomplishes what we can't. We can't order our hearts, minds, and souls rightly. G-d has to because every blessing He gives can be misapplied to give us a false sense of self-reliance and ability. Just because G-d gives us an answer to properly handle our sin doesn't mean we can handle sin. So now, to drive us back to Him, we can only keep the through Him.

Absolutely we can abuse both and grace! What we can't do is get away with it. And yes, focus on Yeshua does keep our minds ordered and our heats fixed on God.

Meanwhile, He has achieved an order in our keeping it. He humbled us and loved us unconditionally in overcoming our sin, and He lifts us up by proper praise in His Spirit to be with Him. All this is done through the Spirit that is given through Yeshua. I'm trying to say thst basically Yeshua presents us before G-d in order. He orders our hearts, minds, and souls to be with G-d. Further, if He doesn't, we can do nothing to please G-d and we will ultimately be consumed in wrath because we will all have to come before G-d. Anyway the result of this in this life, I believe, is keeping the heart of His while deeply desiring to also keep the letter of it. That is His Kingdom.

God's pirit has always been active throughout the Bible. And when we think about it, so has Yeshua. My personal belief is that any time God interacted with people as a man, from walking with Adam in the Garden to wrestling with Ya'akov at Peniel. And you are correct, man can not overcome sin without the help of God as either Yeshua or the Ruach HaKodesh.

G-d knows what He's doing in all of this, and the revelation of Him and His way to us is really about how little we can know, handle,accomplish, and understand- showing us what we do, what we need to do, and what we can't do. It can come across as cruel if we let hasatan twist it; if you don't see it being about driving us back to Him as in the beginning -complete blissful dependence.

Some more cruel than others. Sometimes instead of gently leading me He has to herd me with a stick ... 

He's bringing us back to the beginning but with purity and love, gratitude and joy, and understanding so we will be truly content - no more questioning His perfect character and love. Then, we can truly worship G-d in the right heart and exist with Him in the way He made us to. This is how I understand things at this point anyway; there is blessing in our incomplete and lacking circumstances. Somehow, it just gives us spiritual understanding we have to experience to accept and come to terms with. We need G-d and we either happily accept that it or we rebell against it. Everything He gives us is ultimately about that, but those who seek G-d set themselves apart in that they not only agree with Him that they need Him. They just want Him. I think that's where we are, not refusing either or Yeshua somehow, and that's why this life is so hard for us. We are just wanting His Kingdom. But it's good to feel like that because it does show Him that He is needed, wanted, and loved. This post turned out differently than I was planning and much longer, but basically this is how I have come to terms with things in my life. If it doesn't do anything, at least it shows Him that.

and all scripture points us to God, as does the Ruach. What we must be careful of is any spirit tat points us away from . That would be a spirit not of God.

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

I guess the question in my mind, that I think G-d answers with Yeshua if I look at things from a more practical pursuant way, is that if G-d didn't do away with then how can we keep it when there is no Temple. Beyond the sacrifices that Yeshua answers, He also answers the problems that there's no priesthood, no where to pilgrimage to for the feasts, and there's no place for G-d's presence to physically reside. I'm just looking at it from a more earthly believing practical standpoint. From the Spiritual, I know there's much more to it .

People have done their best to make up for it, but what is their best based on? Even in the days of Yeshua the traditions of the elders were often considered evil by Yeshua because they were inconsistent with G-d's commands ( not honoring parents for the sake of giving to the Temple) or overburdensome to the point of working against the purposes of G-d ( shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people's faces - won't go in yourselves and prevent those who would enter.) I really do care for Jewish people so I fight the notion they only need a lot. They cannot keep . Even when they had the physical means to be able to, and I believe they did better than anyone else could, but even then; they didn't do it well enough to adequately keep it as it is no longer standing. They can't do it on their own and my hope is that many of them will see it even though I know most won't. Any way you look at it, Jew or Gentile, we need Yeshua. I guess this is my attempt to see why from a more -pursuant point of view.

My point is I believe we are the only ones adequately answering the question of how do you keep the when you can't - Yeshua and His Spirit that dwells with you and changes you. So no I'm not directing people away from , but if I direct them away from Yeshua, I believe I would be. The simple truth is no one can keep the and that is a problem however Christians or Jews want to answer it or disregard it. So I believe G-d provided the answer from a -pursuant view through Yeshua and His Spirit - means and Temple.

Also, the Jewish people as a whole have not brought to the nations. If so, I could go to the local synagogue and worship G-d with them considered a blessing and a valued member. The one exception to that is Yeshua, and some Jews who accept Him. I'm trying to say that neither Gentile or Jew can keep the , and neither one adequately deal with the truth that G-d hasn't done away with , but we can't keep it. If you stumble in even one part, you are guilty as of breaking the whole. (James 2:10) so doing your best is not the answer, and pretending you don't even have to try isn't either. It's depending on the provision of G-d that is complete submission through accepting Yeshua and therefore receiving His Spirit.

There are some who had the Spirit of G-d before Messiah's ascension, but today for all believers it's a promise and a guarantee. I believe from a believer's physical and practical standpoint of keeping the commandments, this is because there is no Temple. So the grace of Yeshua overcomes that physical issue, and beyond that I know it's even better- just dealing with this one aspect in this post.

[alon]

Elizabeth, don't get hung up on the Christian teaching that if you take on you have to be 100% obedient or you go to hell. As I said, there was grace in the TNK. Jews then did not think they were saved by works. You repented your sins, just as now. And the entire TNK, especially points us to Yeshua. He is the promised redeemer they looked forward to in trust. Yeshua and are inseparable. 

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

Aug 26, 2018 18:21:10 GMT -8 alon said:

Elizabeth, don't get hung up on the Christian teaching that if you take on you have to be 100% obedient or you go to hell. As I said, there was grace in the TNK. Jews then did not think they were saved by works. You repented your sins, just as now. And the entire TNK, especially points us to Yeshua. He is the promised redeemer they looked forward to in trust. Yeshua and are inseparable. 

Dan C

That's not what I believe, but I do believe that without faith in the salvation of Yeshua you will go to hell. I'm referring to James 2:10 that says if you break one commandment you break them all, and the truth that no one can keep the commandments. I'm also trying to understand its role in my life then.

We do know the demarcation between damnation and salvation, and it's Yeshua. Especially if the law is not done away with as we rightly say, we need to deal with the reality that we can't do it. I think that it's still in effect, but Yeshua took the penalty, otherwise we're damned by it. Meanwhile, I believe He also gives us the means to keep it in just doing the best we can through His own perfect obedience and Spirit. I'm trying to understand what I'm doing here, but I do know that without Yeshua we are all without hope.

[alon]

Aug 27, 2018 4:10:32 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Aug 26, 2018 18:21:10 GMT -8 alon said:

Elizabeth, don't get hung up on the Christian teaching that if you take on you have to be 100% obedient or you go to hell. As I said, there was grace in the TNK. Jews then did not think they were saved by works. You repented your sins, just as now. And the entire TNK, especially points us to Yeshua. He is the promised redeemer they looked forward to in trust. Yeshua and are inseparable. 

Dan C

That's not what I believe, but I do believe that without faith in the salvation of Yeshua you will go to hell. I'm referring to James 2:10 that says if you break one commandment you break them all, and the truth that no one can keep the commandments. I'm also trying to understand its role in my life then.

We do know the demarcation between damnation and salvation, and it's Yeshua. Especially if the law is not done away with as we rightly say, we need to deal with the reality that we can't do it. I think that it's still in effect, but Yeshua took the penalty, otherwise we're damned by it. Meanwhile, I believe He also gives us the means to keep it in just doing the best we can through His own perfect obedience and Spirit. I'm trying to understand what I'm doing here, but I do know that without Yeshua we are all without hope.

I think we are on the same page, just confused by each others thought process! 

We deal with our inability to keep the whole law (or all the instructions in ) the same way the ancient Jews did: through grace. We confess our sins to God, repent of them, and ask His forgiveness and help in overcoming them. We also understand that His grace will cover those laws we cannot keep: no sacrifices because there is no Temple, inability to keep a kosher home in a divided household, things we don't get right because we are still learning, etc. 

Understand too that there is a hierarchy in , and even that in most cases is not set in stone. Yeshua alluded to the fact some things take precedence over others when He taught you worked even on Shabbat if your donkey fell into the ditch, for example. Not allowing the donkey to suffer, nor suffering the loss of a valuable animal are the higher mitzvoth. You must break one law to keep the more important law. Tell God you regret having to work on Shabbat, ask forgiveness if it was an offense, but know He's already forgiven the "sin."  Now if the donkey got out and fell into the ditch because his pen was broken and you could have fixed it during the week then maybe you need to repent your laziness or propensity for procrastination. But you are smart enough to figure that all out on a case by case basis.

Sometimes we wring our hands and worry too much about all this, making it much harder than it should be. Especially those of us coming from a Christian tradition, where we were taught "The Law is the Law, and if you choose to keep it you either keep it perfectly or you are damned to a sinners hell! Or accept (their idea of) Jesus and be free of the Law!" It's hard to be completely free of the effects of having that pounded into your head continually. But no, is God's immutable instructions, however even they have exceptions. Halacha is how we walk out those instructions in our daily lives, and that does change based on time and place. And when we fail, the same grace is available to us that Christianity claims and abuses terribly. They say we are "under the law." To be under the law is an idiom for being under condemnation for breaking the law, and they who refuse it are the ones who are actually "under the law." Christians, who refuse and claim grace covers their willful disobedience stand in danger of being under the curse of the law, not we who try to keep it.

On accepting Yeshua: all points to the promised Anointed One of Yisroel. Those before Yeshua looked forward to this in trust, and we look back to Yeshua in faith as the fulfillment of that promise. Accepting Yeshua as HaMoshiach is necessary for salvation. (See next post for the possible, though not guaranteed exceptions ...).

On halacha: we do not just make up our own rules, or way to walk with God, or tell Him how we will serve Him. Halacha is normally set by a beit din (lit. "house of judgement," a ruling body for a sect) or by the senior rabbonim. However many like you are faced with having no such learned authority. So you either accept the halacha of some group which believes as you do (and preferably lives in similar circumstances- i.e. if you are in a cold climate, accepting the halacha of a group at the equator might prove a bit tricky when you need to light a fire on Shabbat during December. On the other hand, as I said, you are smart enough to figure most of this out on your own. If you are about to freeze to death, light the doggone fire! For most, I would suggest adopting the halacha of the parent synagogue of this site. It is very similar to that of my own synagogue, the differences being very minor,  so I believe it to be good.

So walk as God said the best you can, know there is grace when you can't, and enjoy His shalom.

Dan C 

[alon]

I always say I don't know where the line is demarcating salvation for the Jew or the Gentile, but I guarantee the further away you are from either or Yeshua, the more you are in danger of missing the mark. However there are some doctrines which have more or less merit which people always want to argue. And in truth, I do not know exactly how much merit they each have, or where that ethereal "mark" really lies.

Christians and Jews both think their friends and relatives still have a good chance to make it. Christians quote:

Matthew 5:19  (ESV) Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So it appears that Biblically there is some merit to their thinking; some hope that Christians who eschew but love God and try to emulate Jesus, who was a observant Jew, will make it. Doesn't it say they will be the least,  but they will be there? Even though they teach eating trief, changing the appointed times, etc. So they might make it to heaven and the Olam Haba. But at what point would they be cut off? Even Christian leaders often express that over 50% of most any congregation they observe are not saved, but are blissfully ignorant of this. How many more of them then when viewed through the lens of Messianic truth?

Jewish Messiachim understand that their people have heard how Christianity has persecuted and killed them for centuries; and how this Jesus is their enemy. So doesn't it stand to reason that if they strive to keep and love and worship the same God as we do (who after all was their God first)- won't they make it? Well, I don't see any scriptural proofs for this one. But they do tie it to the popular Christian doctrine that for the person (usually an Amazon tribesman or such) who has never heard the word of God, if he lives up to the light he is given he will be saved. They usually quote Psalm 19:

Psalm 19:1  (ESV) The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.

But they don't read the whole thing. The last verse in this Psalm for reads:

Psalm 19:14  (ESV) Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.

Or the middle verse:

Psalm 19:7 (ESV) The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

So it appears this is not about an Amazonian who never heard, but rather about a man who loves God thinking on the perfection of the law as even reflected in nature and his desire that he might be kept as close to that perfection as possible.

So while it makes sense to me that a fair and just God might make a way for those who have been blinded by not hearing, or by hearing the wrong things, another scripture comes to mind:

Romans 10:17 (ESV) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

I know these doctrines are out there, believed and taught by some very intelligent and learned individuals. And I am not going to argue them. But I am going to (and have many times) ask these men if THEY know for sure where that line is demarcating salvation and damnation? Are any so sure of their ideas they want to teach others these doctrines? Because carry this out to its logical conclusion and, if true, then by telling them the truth I'd be condemning them to hell myself if they don't believe. And that is the more likely outcome! 

So I won't argue that these doctrines are false. But I will argue that teaching them is a really bad idea. And usually you don't hear them from the pulpit or dais or Moses seat, but when someone asks how it is fair for God to condemn such people; or when someone wants to share their hope that their recently deceased relative will make it, even though ... but still you have tainted the person's willingness to spread the good news, possibly for the rest of his life. You've taken away the urgency in spreading the truth! 

Better to teach:

Proverbs 3:5 (ESV) Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.

Trust God to deal with those things. But we need to get busy telling whoever He puts in front of us the truth!

Dan (just my opinion) C

[Elizabeth]

In the midst of the spiritual mess I'm in, I have learned a lot about myself. I know when my heart is in G-d's Spirit because instead of being argumentative and wanting to be right, it just overflows with love and desperation on behalf of people. It's not words, it's desperation. I know that's G-d. That's His heart. Yeshua didn't just pour out His life, He poured out His Spirit. I know I can't love like that on my own. As much as I try, I still feel the need to defend and protect myself. I have shocked myself on occasion lately to find myself praying that people not be held accountable for any hurt against me. I caught myself, and G-d quickly pointed to the cross. After thinking about it, I realized it's because i don't want to stand in the way of anyone's chance to know G-d or His chance to love them. We don't have time for guilt and blame. I don't want to be an obstacle, and I NEVER did that before coming here - struggling with evil and with all the spiritual questions our beliefs bring up. I've also caught myself several times when someone sins against me, I was happy because it is a chance to forgive - a chance to keep a commandment. That's our G-d and He is wise and beautiful because somehow He worked that in me when I wasn't really looking. We have a G-d Who will comfort and sustain us. All we can do is point people to Him and know for them He'll do the same. Love others as you love yourself demands we offer them Yeshua. I know I'm not a good person without Him after these experiences. I thought I was doing pretty good, but a little glimpse at the heart of G-d, and I know it's only through Yeshua that I can be good. I just can't do that on my own. And He has a heart we can depend on. It never changes or gets tired, gives up or quits. I don't know how many times I've said I quit, or there's no use, but then He gives me a moment like that and I keep going. Look at it this way. How quickly will anyone's goodness be swallowed up if left to hasatan. Without Yeshua, I would be completely hopeless and already gone. So as the world gets more and more evil, we're going to see less and less goodness. It will be lost without Yeshua fighting for it. Our message is not about beating people down, but so much of religion seems to go that way. We have to avoid that place where G-d comes across as the enemy. I think I hear your struggle with that same thing I am dealing with in your post. I also am angry because of evil I can't get away from, but we can't take that out on the world around us, which is hard because it's the source of the evil. Here's the place for mercy, they really don't understand; but here's the perversion, hasatsn will make that a source of weakness. So if we look at the world we live in we'll see the need and the goodness we help preserve in sharing it. People need to be saved in this life. They need the strength of Yeshua to always remember their worth regardless of what evil surrounds them or is forced upon them. They need to know and feel how much G-d loves them, and know Yeshua is their place of safety, where evil can't destroy or change who they are. The devil has been trying to convince me I have nothing really to offer, but in moments like the above, G-d shows me I do. We have to trust and believe that what we have to share really is good news, and people do want to hear it - enough to keep us talking. Yet, i also see how hard that can be because there is so much loss. G-d comforts and loves abundantly. Anyone who accepts the Gospel will be comforted, and He told us to rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep. He has them in mind.

[Elizabeth]

Aug 26, 2018 14:33:57 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

...the Jewish people as a whole have not brought to the nations. If so, I could go to the local synagogue and worship G-d with them considered a blessing and a valued member. The one exception to that is Yeshua, and some Jews who accept Him. 

G-d is good and faithful to teach because I just realized that if not for Jewish people, I would have no idea the significance of Jerusalem. 

"If I forget you oh Jerusalem, let my right hand lose  its skill. May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth, if I do not remember you."
Psalm 136:5-6

I love that verse because exiled Jews were just asked to play music and sing for their captors, and the writer says in these words I would rather never play music or sing again then forget why I do. 
 
I realized that if Jewish people had forgotten Jerusalem, I would never have known any better or even had an idea of what that means because no one else could show it. So it's not true that Israel as a whole has not been a light to the nations.  I'd have no idea where all this is heading because Christians never taught it to me.  Jewish people have kept that and there's no other earthly way I would have seen it. But it's telling that G-d chose this one earthly way to do it because He is faithful and there is blessing just in Israel's existance.  It's just the nature of who G-d made them to be.