The Two Daily Sacrifices

[messianic]

Here is a question, that I have. When I read the Tanakh, I read that there are supposed to be two daily sacrifices. One at 9 in the morning and one at twilight. Now, then Yeshua was crucified at 9 in the morning. He died at 3 in the afternoon. I read several places that at 3 PM the last sacrifice is. So, if this is true, it would coincide with the crucifixion and death of Yeshua. But my big question comes on the 3 in the afternoon. It's not twilight at all at 3 PM in Israel. So, which is it? 3 PM or twilight? 

Thank you so much? 

[alon]

Aug 17, 2018 19:20:32 GMT -8 messianic said:

Here is a question, that I have. When I read the Tanakh, I read that there are supposed to be two daily sacrifices. One at 9 in the morning and one at twilight. Now, then Yeshua was crucified at 9 in the morning. He died at 3 in the afternoon. I read several places that at 3 PM the last sacrifice is. So, if this is true, it would coincide with the crucifixion and death of Yeshua. But my big question comes on the 3 in the afternoon. It's not twilight at all at 3 PM in Israel. So, which is it? 3 PM or twilight? 

Thank you so much? 

Not sure what you are asking, but here are a few things that might help: First, the Hebrew of the 1st cen did not tell time like we do today. The day was divided into 12 equal segments, each corresponding to one hour. So in summer when days were longer, so were the hours. Conversely an hour of darkness was shorter because the night was shorter. So our idea of 3:00 PM and theirs are two different things.

Concerning Yeshua being taken from the cross at the 9th hour (@3:00 PM), remember, He not only had to be removed from the cross; He had to be prepared and laid in the tomb before twilight. So they had just three hours (in their reckoning, not ours) to get all that done.

Here is where a little Hebrew comes in handy. The word translated "feasts" is  "moedim." Feasts just make it sound like a celebration. However the Hebrew word carries connotations of being a dress rehearsal. Rehearsal for what?

For those times when Elohim would interact with man in ways that have eternal ramifications. Pesach (Passover) was a minute by minute rehearsal for the Crucifixion. Look in the Moedim section and I am sure this has been discussed. But at the ninth hour when the Cohen Hagadol (High priest) raised his arms after the days sacrifices and said "It is finished" Yeshua said the same thing as He died. 

Dan C

[messianic]

Aug 17, 2018 22:32:40 GMT -8 alon said:

Aug 17, 2018 19:20:32 GMT -8 messianic said:

Here is a question, that I have. When I read the Tanakh, I read that there are supposed to be two daily sacrifices. One at 9 in the morning and one at twilight. Now, then Yeshua was crucified at 9 in the morning. He died at 3 in the afternoon. I read several places that at 3 PM the last sacrifice is. So, if this is true, it would coincide with the crucifixion and death of Yeshua. But my big question comes on the 3 in the afternoon. It's not twilight at all at 3 PM in Israel. So, which is it? 3 PM or twilight? 

Thank you so much? 

Not sure what you are asking, but here are a few things that might help: First, the Hebrew of the 1st cen did not tell time like we do today. The day was divided into 12 equal segments, each corresponding to one hour. So in summer when days were longer, so were the hours. Conversely an hour of darkness was shorter because the night was shorter. So our idea of 3:00 PM and theirs are two different things.

Concerning Yeshua being taken from the cross at the 9th hour (@3:00 PM), remember, He not only had to be removed from the cross; He had to be prepared and laid in the tomb before twilight. So they had just three hours (in their reckoning, not ours) to get all that done.

Here is where a little Hebrew comes in handy. The word translated "feasts" is  "moedim." Feasts just make it sound like a celebration. However the Hebrew word carries connotations of being a dress rehearsal. Rehearsal for what?

For those times when Elohim would interact with man in ways that have eternal ramifications. Pesach (Passover) was a minute by minute rehearsal for the Crucifixion. Look in the Moedim section and I am sure this has been discussed. But at the ninth hour when the Cohen Hagadol (High priest) raised his arms after the days sacrifices and said "It is finished" Yeshua said the same thing as He died. 

Dan C

Hi, Dan, 

Thank you so much. I actually didn't know that about the High Priest saying: "It is finished."  That by itself is pretty neat. 

My question is that if Yeshua died at 3:00 in the afternoon, our time.... (not talking about EST of course)  That is different then the second daily sacrifice was done when the sun went down. Because in Israel the sun doesn't go down at 3:00 in the afternoon. 

You mentioned about the Jewish time changing. That's very interesting. Are you saying that they changed the Jewish time every day? Because the change of seasons with the time changes is gradual, so it changes every day a minute or so. Actually the rate of change is bigger in the middle like 21st of March and September than during the shortest or longest day. It's like sin wave. When I taught Calculus, I had my student create a formula for this. 

[alon]

Aug 18, 2018 18:43:16 GMT -8 messianic said:

My question is that if Yeshua died at 3:00 in the afternoon, our time.... (not talking about EST of course)  That is different then the second daily sacrifice was done when the sun went down. Because in Israel the sun doesn't go down at 3:00 in the afternoon. 

You mentioned about the Jewish time changing. That's very interesting. Are you saying that they changed the Jewish time every day? Because the change of seasons with the time changes is gradual, so it changes every day a minute or so. Actually the rate of change is bigger in the middle like 21st of March and September than during the shortest or longest day. It's like sin wave. When I taught Calculus, I had my student create a formula for this. 

I think I see what you are asking:

Exodus 12:6  (ESV) and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.

Yes, the Paschal lamb was killed at twilight. But remember that they had already prepared for this. The basin would actually have been built into the threshold of the front entryway. The killing of an animal, collecting its blood and putting it on the doorposts and lintel was (and still is in some mid-eastern cultures as I understand it) a very serious form of covenant. When you passed through that doorway you became like a member of that family. Notice no one asked Moshe (Moses) "What do you mean? How do we do this?" They already knew, and the means to do this was already there. I remember this from a Rico Cortes lecture, and I've seen pictures of the stone thresholds with a trough and basin carved into them. Did every home have this? I don't know. But the practice was well known regardless, so they could easily have prepared.

The fires would have already been made and everything was ready to prepare the lamb for consumption, and the lamb was prepared in haste. So I don't see it as a problem that Yeshua died as the last of the sacrifices in the Temple were made, or that He was prepared in haste for burial and entombed before Pesach began at twilight. To have left Him or to have not entombed Him before Pesach began would have been sin. As it was, the conspirators in the Sanhedrin who had Him crucified that close to Pesach had already brought guilt on the nation. And the Jews think in terms of national as well as personal sin and redemption. 

As for the length of the days and their effect on the length of an hour, your calculus background goes past my understanding here. I imagine that for the average Hebrew of the time it was all an estimate. Since astrology was an advanced science going back into antiquity, I am sure there were those who did know. But the average Jew would have not had the education nor any devices for telling time. However living out and close to the land I am sure they had a pretty good idea what part of the day it was. 

Dan C

edit: it might be interesting (if you can dumb it down a bit, for me at least  ) to hear exactly what effect the changing of the length of days in Israel would have on a 12 hr/day system of time in Israel.

[messianic]

Hi, Dan, 

Thank you so much!!! I'm actually talking about the daily offerings in Exodus 29:38,39. 


“Now this is what you shall offer on the altar: two lambs of the first year, day by day continually. One lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight."

As to what affects the change of a day. I would say that it would be the position of the earth relative to the sun.... 

If you can draw it out on a piece of paper. Put two globes. As the earth tilts back and forth, you will see that the radius of the circle where the earth hits will be bigger or larger depending on how the earth would be tilted. So, if the earth was tilted with the southern part of the earth looking more towards the sun, the The southern parts would be warmer and would have longer days, especially the more towards the south you get, i.e. the south pole. When the earth tillts the other way, i.e. towards the north, you would have longer days in the north. The other would be true also. One side would have shorter days and the other longer days.  For instance right now in South America we are leaving the winter. You all are leaving the summer. 

It's hard to describe it without drawing it. Take a globe and another ball or something and see what happens with the circle of especially like a northern country like Canada, if you tillt the globe back and forth. 

[alon]

Yes, I get the tilt of the earth effecting the length of days. What I was wondering was the length of days at the time of Passover when Yeshua was crucified. The use of a "leap month" means the feasts can appear at different times on our calendar, and at different times in the seasons in the Hebrew calendar. I was wondering what the actual length of the day would have been so that when divided by 12 then multiplied by 3 we'd have an idea just how much time (as we understand it) they would have had to prepare Yeshua and get Him in the tomb.

Dan C

[messianic]

Hi, Dan, that would be tough to figure out.... You'd have to know the exact time that it would be daylight then. Then you could divide that, I guess. I don't know how long it would take to take Yeshua from the cross. I would think that if Joseph had some help, or even a little cart, that it might take him 5 minutes to take him to the tomb. It's about a block away. I don't know how long it would take to prepare His body. Then I don't know how long it would have taken to extend the place where His body was laid. About 1/2 feet of carving out the rock. Then putting the stone in front of it, wouldn't have taken that long. I don't know, maybe taking the body from the cross might be 10 minutes. (Removing the nails.)  Maybe knowing the length of Yeshua, he might have carved that 1/2 feet before. I don't know how long Yeshua's body hang on the cross before he was able to take it down.... Maybe others helped. I myself would not know how to do this, especially not prepare a body for burial... But maybe somebody knew how to do this quickly. 

Does that answer the question? 

[alon]

Aug 19, 2018 20:38:00 GMT -8 messianic said:

Hi, Dan, that would be tough to figure out.... You'd have to know the exact time that it would be daylight then. Then you could divide that, I guess. I don't know how long it would take to take Yeshua from the cross. I would think that if Joseph had some help, or even a little cart, that it might take him 5 minutes to take him to the tomb. It's about a block away. I don't know how long it would take to prepare His body. Then I don't know how long it would have taken to extend the place where His body was laid. About 1/2 feet of carving out the rock. Then putting the stone in front of it, wouldn't have taken that long. I don't know, maybe taking the body from the cross might be 10 minutes. (Removing the nails.)  Maybe knowing the length of Yeshua, he might have carved that 1/2 feet before. I don't know how long Yeshua's body hang on the cross before he was able to take it down.... Maybe others helped. I myself would not know how to do this, especially not prepare a body for burial... But maybe somebody knew how to do this quickly. 

Does that answer the question? 

It helps. I've wondered about the preparation myself. It was common for the ones doing the preparations for burial to be experts hired for the job. And it would have taken a few men to remove Him, do all the prep, lay Him in the tomb  and roll the rock in front. Joseph would not have wanted to touch death since that would make him tamei, or ritually unavailable (usually translated "unclean") at the time of Pesach. The pros could still observe the second Pesach as outlined in :

Numbers 9:6-11 (ESV) And there were certain men who were unclean through touching a dead body, so that they could not keep the Passover on that day, and they came before Moses and Aaron on that day.  And those men said to him, “We are unclean through touching a dead body. Why are we kept from bringing the Lord's offering at its appointed time among the people of Israel?”  And Moses said to them, “Wait, that I may hear what the Lord will command concerning you.” The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If any one of you or of your descendants is unclean through touching a dead body, or is on a long journey, he shall still keep the Passover to the Lord. In the second month on the fourteenth day at twilight they shall keep it. They shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

I actually still have some questions about Pesach and the crucifixion. This is one of them.

Dan C