Yeshua will come back when His Father tells Him to.

[messianic]

Hi, 

I have a friend of mine, who is Jewish. We were talking not too long ago. He mentioned that the reason that Yeshua didn't know when He would come back is because He went to prepare a place for us and that the Father had to approve of this place. 

We talked about how that during the time of Yeshua, a young man would be betrothed to his bride. Then he would go and build a house or a dwelling place for the bride and him. He would then come back at a certain time and take his bride. 

All of this seems to really fit what happened with us. Yeshua left His Bride the Church here on earth. At the appointed time, He will come back and take us to be with Him in heaven to have the wedding feast of the Lamb. 

So, it made sense in light of John 14:1-5 and other passages. But I had never heard the last part of that the Bridegroom's Father had to approve of the house first. He said it was well known among Jewish people. 

Any thoughts on this? 

[alon]

Aug 16, 2018 21:00:15 GMT -8 messianic said:

I have a friend of mine, who is Jewish. We were talking not too long ago. He mentioned that the reason that Yeshua didn't know when He would come back is because He went to prepare a place for us and that the Father had to approve of this place. 

We talked about how that during the time of Yeshua, a young man would be betrothed to his bride. Then he would go and build a house or a dwelling place for the bride and him. He would then come back at a certain time and take his bride. 

All of this seems to really fit what happened with us. Yeshua left His Bride the Church here on earth. At the appointed time, He will come back and take us to be with Him in heaven to have the wedding feast of the Lamb. 

So, it made sense in light of John 14:1-5 and other passages. But I had never heard the last part of that the Bridegroom's Father had to approve of the house first. He said it was well known among Jewish people. 

Any thoughts on this? 

Your friend is absolutely correct! And you are lucky to have such a friend to talk to about these things. I always said if the church fathers would have walked down to the local synagogue and asked about many of the things they were struggling with they'd have learned something. But instead they were too busy burning the synagogue and killing the congregation. 

But yes, when Yeshua said "But as for that day or hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" (Mark 13:32) He was using wedding language.  Jewish weddings followed a strict format. There was the agreement, called a "kethuba," after which the couple were betrothed. At the meal where this agreement was worked out, there were 3 cups of wine. They were considered married, however the marriage wasn't consummated until much later, often over a year. The groom went to prepare a place for his bride, and he could not go for her until his father said he was ready, "I go to prepare a place for you." (John 14:2) Meanwhile the bride went away to her chambers and prepared for her wedding day, just as we are still here making preparations for the return of HaMoshiach. And she had to always be ready, as did her maids attending her (story of the wise and foolish virgins). Another custom is the 4th cup of the wedding agreement. The three others were shared by the groom, his father, and the bride's family. But the fourth was shared only by the bride and groom at the ceremony when he finally went to get her. He was not to touch wine or any products of the grape vine until that day; "I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.” (Matthew 26:29). So the wedding is the framework on which our salvation story is laid. 

The New Testament is a thoroughly Jewish document, and as such must be read through not only Jewish eyes, but the eyes of a 1st cen Jew. I've defended this statement in front of pastors with Masters degrees; "There is absolutely nothing 'new' in the so called 'New Testament.' After all their "yabbuts" ("Yabbut this ... yabbut that ...") they think, "Revelation! Gotcha!" Their problem is that all of the ideas in Revelation were written about from the 4th through 1st centuries BCE in documents found in Qumran from writings of the Jewish apocryphal tradition- same statements using the same language! Another of my favorite sayings is that Yeshua did not step into a vacuum. The way had been thoroughly prepared for Him and His shaliachim (apostles). The Jews had heard very similar things before, otherwise they'd have thought Yochanon (John) was crazy and returned the letters to Patmos!

But I digress. Marriage language is found all through the words of Yeshua. The only thing I'd correct is when you say "Yeshua left His Bride the Church here on earth." The church is not His bride. The word translated "church" in the NT is "eklesia," which is the same word the LXX translates as "assembly" in the OT. Saying it means "church" in the NT is part of replacement theology, which says in its most extreme forms that only Christians (and maybe Moses and King David and a few others) will make it to heaven. In its simplest form it just says that the Jews are out, the Gentiles are in, and the church is now the Bride of (the) Christ. Nope, He was betrothed to a bunch of Jews and in a very Jewish manner. The promises were made to the Jews, not the Gentiles; and God does not renege on a promise. And if you are not grafted in, adopted into their family, then you have no part in the promises. That, albeit in a sort of convoluted way is even Christian doctrine in many churches. I was raised Southern Baptist, and my mom's family were all Assemblies, and it was that way for both of us.

Hope this helps, if nothing else to confirm what you were told by your friend.

Dan C

edit: just as an aside, many of these traditions are still carried out in Jewish weddings today. When my wife's cousin was married, he and his father filled out a kethuba at a formal meal with the bride and her family. And everyone knows about the stomping of the glass under the chuppah at a Jewish wedding. This is so no one esle but the bride and groom, who just drank from it, can ever drink from that glass. And while his father did not make him wait a year while he built a house for his bride, he did make her cousin go back through college a second time until he took his studies seriously before he could even think of marriage!

[Elizabeth]

This has been really illuminating. Thanks for all the info and context to you both. I'm wondering if this friend is a believing friend, Messianic? I've considered talking to a Rabbi just for the sake of testifying and witnessing. Lately G-d has reminded me that we were kicked out of the synagogue. I don't know if He's preparing me or blocking me, but my one concern about going to synagogues for answers to questions and guidance is that G-d let us be kicked out of the synagogues. If He wanted us there in any way to agree and seek guidance, wouldn't He have prevented that?

Based on this, I'm not sure that's the best place for advice and answers because they will likely not want to understand scriptures in any way that shows Yeshua to be Messiah and Son of G-d. This is more about me personally because I'm struggling with a lot of confusion right now, and I'm having a hard time with G-d. Perhaps your friend is an example for me that I'm hearing wrongly. I don't know, but to be honest, only asking for my own sake. I find myself asking a lot of really obvious questions lately because I'm in confusion.

I also have heard that "no one knows the day or hour" refers to the likelihood of  it occurring on Yom Teruah (how I wish it were this one!) because it is determined by the sighting of the new moon. Just checking my understanding on that one.

Messianic, you have been a blessing to me with your questions and insights. I think Dan could write a book I could read and reread, so between that and you asking the questions I don't know enough to ask, I'm learning a lot. Thanks for joining and sharing!

[messianic]

Thank you both so much for these answers. I'm glad to hear this confirmed. This helps a lot. Yes, I can understand that when you change cultures that you have to really take things into context in order to understand what is being said. Just like I had to learn that when someone in the USA is asking "How are you doing?" that that person doesn't necessarily want to know exactly how I'm doing and that most likely, he could care less. I thought before: "Wow, these people are so friendly. Everyone seems to care about how my life is going, even though they don't know me!!!"

I'm glad that you liked my questions, though I've only done two of them. I have another question.

My friend btw, is Jewish. He got saved at around 20 years old and then I spent a lot of years discipling him. Now, I am in South America as a missionary and he is in the States, so I don't get to talk with him a lot.

So, here is my next question. I heard from someone else that when a young man and his dad were to propose marriage to a young woman and her father that the young man would give her a glass of wine to drink and if she drank of the wine that this would mean that she wanted to marry him. So, then this person went on to say that when Yeshua gave a cup of wine at the first "communion" for lack of a better term. That He in actuality was saying "I love you, will you be my Bride?" So, that when we drink the cup, we also proclaim that we love Christ and that we want to be part of His Bride.

Is that true? I've never read that in the Scriptures anywhere.

[alon]

Aug 17, 2018 9:39:00 GMT -8 messianic said:

...

So, here is my next question. I heard from someone else that when a young man and his dad were to propose marriage to a young woman and her father that the young man would give her a glass of wine to drink and if she drank of the wine that this would mean that she wanted to marry him. So, then this person went on to say that when Yeshua gave a cup of wine at the first "communion" for lack of a better term. That He in actuality was saying "I love you, will you be my Bride?" So, that when we drink the cup, we also proclaim that we love Christ and that we want to be part of His Bride.

Is that true? I've never read that in the Scriptures anywhere.

There were different customs concerning this, but basically this is true. Usually the prospective groom and his father would show up at the door of the young woman's house along with a scribe and a jug of wine. They knew he was coming- and by the way, I don't know if I could write a book, but I did read a couple, which is where I learned this  - anyhow, she and her father would stand behind the door and the groom would knock:

Revelation 3:20 (ESV) Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

If she told her father to open the door, the young man was pretty much home free. But they would eat a meal together with the bride's whole family. Marriage is more than joining two people, it joins two families. And eating together in ancient Israel, especially if there was wine and/or salt on the table was a type of covenant. The details of the marriage were worked out and written down to make the kethuba, or marriage agreement. 

There are actually four cups of wine of the marriage agreement. These are based on the four expressions of redemption in Exodus:

The Cup of Sanctification-  “I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians”
The Cup of Judgment or Deliverance-  “I will deliver you from slavery to them”
The Cup of Redemption-  “I will redeem you with an outstretched arm”
The Cup of Praise or Restoration-  “I will take you to be my people, and I will be your God”

The fourth cup is drank only by the bride and groom at the final ceremony before they consummate their marriage. However the other three were drank by all at this meal as the agreement/covenant took shape. These correspond to the four cups of the Passover Seder, which is what your "first communion" was; again only three of which we drink at this meal. The cup that Christian communion is based on is the third cup, the cup of redemption.

I really don't know how widespread this practice was. But it is still practiced today, with maybe a modification here and there, by many Jews. I think I told you my wife's cousin went through a similar process when he was married. My married life on the other hand has been one mishigas  after another. Why, oh WHY didn't I get a kethuba made up?   (LOL, it wouldn't have helped in any case, because as I understand it the document is mostly to protect the wife ... oy, vavoy)   

Dan (dang-it) C

[messianic]

Thank you so much for confirming this. I got a question, where would one find this type of information? 

[alon]

I learned it from books first. But they were from my time in Hebrew Roots, which has some good stuff but also a lot of bad. So I threw them out. However the part about the wedding was later confirmed in lectures and other studies. You can find variations of it on the internet. There are different versions, but I suspect that the tradition changed with time and place. Being in the diaspora, local custom has had an effect on many Jewish traditions. But most are pretty close. Also it was confirmed (again with some variation) when my wife attended her cousins wedding in London. Her family is Jewish, her father and his brother (her cousins father) having narrowly escaped the Shoa (Holocaust). 

The four cups are the same as in the Pesach seder. That is confirmed every year. But it was really confirmed when I was doing this on my own and still in HR, but moving towards Messianic Judasm without even knowing it. I would find a demonstration seder to attend each year as close to Pesach as I could. At these there is always a lot of teaching, and the meaning of the four cups was always given to us. I immediately recognized the connection.

I'm sorry I don't have any documentation handy. But do a search for Hebrew wedding customs and I'm sure you'll find a lot. Just be careful as there is a lot of bad information out there (as you already know). 

Dan C

[messianic]

I officiated a Jewish wedding about 25 years ago. It was very interesting. I remember the breaking of the glass (MASELTOFF) and they were dancing with the bride and groom on chairs lifted up in the air. It was a fun wedding. The groom was a big 007 fan. So, there were also a lot of James Bond references in the wedding!!! I'm sure that's nowhere in the !!!