Sisera

[messianic]

Hi, everyone, 

I got a question. I was listening to Ray vander Laan's teaching. He mentioned that the name Sisera in Judges 4 means snake. It would make sense in some way in the sense that Jael, who killed him would mean: "JHVH God." So, if Sisera means snake, then it would be sort of a picture of the head of the snake being crushed by JHVH God.  

However, here is the problem.... I can't find any source that confirms Sisera's name.... The only meaning, I find is: Horse or swallow...  

Do you all have any thoughts on this? 

[alon]

Aug 15, 2018 19:57:45 GMT -8 messianic said:

I got a question. I was listening to Ray vander Laan's teaching. He mentioned that the name Sisera in Judges 4 means snake. It would make sense in some way in the sense that Jael, who killed him would mean: "JHVH God." So, if Sisera means snake, then it would be sort of a picture of the head of the snake being crushed by JHVH God.  

However, here is the problem.... I can't find any source that confirms Sisera's name.... The only meaning, I find is: Horse or swallow...  

...

Those are the only names I know of; although the ancient Hebrews named things after how they acted, and the term "sus" might be applied to almost anything that darted around quickly (such as a horse or swallow). The ending "sera" could come from several places, so most historians are not sure or agreed on where Sisera was from. 

I am not familiar with Ray vander Laan's works. But you have to be careful with Christian teachings. They tend to search for connections that support what they want, such as spiritualizing or assigning some typological significance to a situation. And we must be no less careful with Jewish sources, as they do the same thing, but with their own twist. (Tradition has it she laid with him seven times to tire him out, but it was ok because she was doing it for the right reasons ... really?) 

What I find interesting is the Hebrew spelling- סיסרא. The Hebrew term סיס sus has two ס sameach's in it. This letter carries connotations of supporting something/someone. The middle letter י yud represents a hand. And he was apparently a foreign commander who turned his hand to help the Canaanite Jabin attack the Jews. So we could make all kinds of connections here. But until you know for sure that there is a reference in ancient Hebrew writings to this name meaning "snake," I'd suggest you remain suspicious. I try to file things like that away in the "maybe someday I'll find out" drawer in my mind.

Interesting picture though: the head of the snake being crushed by God.

Dan C

 

[jimmie]

Sisera - Hawk eye an Hebrew euphemism meaning Servant of Ra. Ra was the Egyptian god depicted with a bird head on a human body. He wore a sun disk encircled by a serpent. That is most likely where Laan got the idea that Sisera meant snake.

Sisera was my Grand Father's middle name. He died from a 22 bullet in his temple. It was fired from a rifle at point blank range. Weather by my grand father or grand mother is not know. One should research a name before giving it to a child. I was going to name one of my sons Jericho. I had three daughters in a row. God gave me time to reflect on the name before I could brand one of my sons with it.

[messianic]

Thank you so much, Dan!!! Wow, you certainly know Hebrew. I'm just going to put it aside, unless someone else at the forum has any sort of input into this. I managed an official website of a Disney star one time. Well, as part of that, I had to correct some incorrect information about the star, like where she was born and her middle name, etc... What I noticed was that all of the websites had the same incorrect information. They were all quoting the big websites like imdb.com and wikipedia. So, I ended up having to have it corrected there and the other websites of all of the fans, ended up taking care of it themselves. So, I want to make sure that I don't see as authority a website or some blog that is just quoting Ray vander Laan. Though I have learned a lot from him.

Thank you again so much!!!

[alon]

Aug 16, 2018 20:51:51 GMT -8 messianic said:

Thank you so much, Dan!!! Wow, you certainly know Hebrew. I'm just going to put it aside, unless someone else at the forum has any sort of input into this. I managed an official website of a Disney star one time. Well, as part of that, I had to correct some incorrect information about the star, like where she was born and her middle name, etc... What I noticed was that all of the websites had the same incorrect information. They were all quoting the big websites like imdb.com and wikipedia. So, I ended up having to have it corrected there and the other websites of all of the fans, ended up taking care of it themselves. So, I want to make sure that I don't see as authority a website or some blog that is just quoting Ray vander Laan. Though I have learned a lot from him.

Thank you again so much!!!

Incorrect information does seem to get around the web much better than the truth; for sure!

And you are more than welcome, though it would be more correct to say I know a bit ABOUT Hebrew. I am afraid I don't speak it; and Biblical Hebrew is different to what we have today anyhow. But the information is out there in credible sources, and my Rabbi was raised in Jerusalem quite literally at the feet of many of the founders of the modern Messianic movement. So he does speak it as a native language and has studied the Biblical variant(s). So I am very fortunate to have had some very good instruction.

One of the things we as Meshiachim try to do is combat the ignorance and idiocy that makes its way around the web and in some Messianic circles. Ignorance we prefer because that condition does not have to be terminal. Idiocy, well, not much we can do but say no! But I pray all the time that I would not be guilty of spreading any myself, which is why I won't give a definitive answer to questions such as this where I don't know for sure. I'd ask the Rav, but he is in Mexico laying the groundwork for another synagogue for a month.

That's my synagogue, by the way. I am about 3 hrs away from the parent synagogue of this forum, so I don't attend there.

Dan C

[messianic]

I appreciate that. That is why I want to confirm things before I just say what I learned. And when I don't see any confirmation anywhere and can't find it in my Tenney's Biblical Encyclopedia, then I start to really wonder. That was the case with this thing, that Ray vander Laan shares. Now, he does share quite a bit of good things. But I couldn't find any confirmation about that. Maybe he found it in some hidden Hebrew text somewhere. Or maybe he meant that Sisera represents the snake.... I can see that. 

Another thing that he shares, which I can't seem to find any confirmation on is that Goliath wore a coat of scale armour of bronze weighing 6,000 shekels. Now, my Bible says 5,000 shekels, so does the Septuagint, so does the Dutch Bible, so does the Spanish Bible. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen any version that uses 6,000. I can't find any justification with it. 

The difficult thing with him is that I don't know how to contact him to go over this with him. He has some extremely well made videos on Youtube. But most of them are there to sort of give a taste of the other videos. I'm not saying that I don't believe him. He's endorsed by Zondervan and Focus on the Family. I just would like to be able to verify some of the things he shared. So, I can decide whether I can teach them to the people, I disciple. 

When your Rabbi has some time, I would love to talk with him. 

[alon]

Aug 17, 2018 10:17:43 GMT -8 messianic said:

I appreciate that. That is why I want to confirm things before I just say what I learned. And when I don't see any confirmation anywhere and can't find it in my Tenney's Biblical Encyclopedia, then I start to really wonder. That was the case with this thing, that Ray vander Laan shares. Now, he does share quite a bit of good things. But I couldn't find any confirmation about that. Maybe he found it in some hidden Hebrew text somewhere. Or maybe he meant that Sisera represents the snake.... I can see that. 

Another thing that he shares, which I can't seem to find any confirmation on is that Goliath wore a coat of scale armour of bronze weighing 6,000 shekels. Now, my Bible says 5,000 shekels, so does the Septuagint, so does the Dutch Bible, so does the Spanish Bible. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen any version that uses 6,000. I can't find any justification with it. 

The difficult thing with him is that I don't know how to contact him to go over this with him. He has some extremely well made videos on Youtube. But most of them are there to sort of give a taste of the other videos. I'm not saying that I don't believe him. He's endorsed by Zondervan and Focus on the Family. I just would like to be able to verify some of the things he shared. So, I can decide whether I can teach them to the people, I disciple. 

When your Rabbi has some time, I would love to talk with him. 

Zondervan and Focus on the Family, while reputable are still Christian sources. This means they will interpret things through Greco-Romano-o*who*know eyes. There will be a lot of bad theology mixed in there. I understand yours is a Christian ministry, and I'm not disparaging what you do. However as you study here you will find several places where your beliefs will be challenged. We accept people where they are, and you are just starting to look for the real truth in the Word. I suspect you've always been that way; looking for the truth. Almost to a man (or woman) those who become Messianic are that way. We always advise people to go slow and not get overwhelmed. And how much of it you accept is up to you as well. All I can tell you is if the Ruach (Spirit) shows you something and puts it on your heart to do it or to accept it, then you should! Like you probably do in your own ministry, we put it out there, then after that it is between you and God.

In that vein, as you look at older posts you will see some things meant for a more mature Messianic believer. They may have you wondering "What am I getting into?" I'd encourage you to ask for clarification before you go running for the hills. It is also common for many Messianics to become angry at Christianity when they come out of the church. I was like that, and if you read some of my older posts you may see that. I apologize- I've gotten over it now (with some effort). It was on my list to deal with during this period of teshuvah (repentance) for a couple of years. As the Hebrew month of Elul started I asked the Lord to show me what I needed to work on now. He let the enemy lose on me for a couple of days and I got my answer, loud and clear- anger! I still have anger issues, just not at the church any more. 

But we are all learning and growing here, myself included. I've learned to give myself room to make mistakes. I pray I won't, but still at times I do (they are God's way of keeping me humble ). And at those times when I find out I was wrong about something, I put it out here either as a correction or as a post in my "I Found Out I Was Wrong" thread. Never be afraid to say "I was wrong." That's far better than putting out bad information and leaving it that way. And as your congregation finds you are looking into Messianic studies they should expect you will find some areas where you come to believe the common "wisdom" in church circles is wrong. 

Dan C

[messianic]

Hi, Dan, 

Thanks for your response. Actually Ray Vander Laan is really emphasizing to look at things through a Jewish prospective. I like that, and it makes sense to me that when one reads a Book written a long time agon, primarily in a Jewish context that one has to look at it that way. Of course, I think that there might be some challenge in actually knowing what really happened 2000 years ago, outside of the Scriptures. Now, I feel that any major doctrine will be clearly defined in the Scriptures, so even when people don't have a cultural understanding, they can still interpret the Scriptures. For one they have the Holy Spirit, that is if they have trusted Christ as Saviour. 

So, my attitude here is that I want to learn. One day, I'm going to stand in front of God. As far as what we practice here. We have home churches. We don't build buildings. And we try to follow what the Scriptures tells us to do when it comes to how we are to be a church. So, if we find that we need to change something, we'll need to do it. So, I'm not sure what the common wisdom is when it comes to church, but we are very unlike a church that people would generally think of. 

Blessings, 

Kees

[alon]

messianic, what you have in the home is an assembly, and ekklesia. And it is one that apparently is searching for the truth; God's truth. You can call it a home study, a home church, a home synagogue- but all these are really just home assemblies. The important thing is that you are looking for and open to the truth- but not so open you let just anything in. Search the spirit, test the word. Be like the Bereans, who were commended for doing just that.

I don't know about common wisdom, but from where I sit you are on the right track. 

Names have meanings, and at some point you may want to call yourself something else. But that is entirely up to you all and dependent on where you are as a group. For me it is simple; I call my group "Mark, Dan, and the Rabbi." 
Dan C

[messianic]

Aug 17, 2018 21:28:01 GMT -8 alon said:

messianic, what you have in the home is an assembly, and ekklesia. And it is one that apparently is searching for the truth; God's truth. You can call it a home study, a home church, a home synagogue- but all these are really just home assemblies. The important thing is that you are looking for and open to the truth- but not so open you let just anything in. Search the spirit, test the word. Be like the Bereans, who were commended for doing just that.

I don't know about common wisdom, but from where I sit you are on the right track. 

Names have meanings, and at some point you may want to call yourself something else. But that is entirely up to you all and dependent on where you are as a group. For me it is simple; I call my group "Mark, Dan, and the Rabbi." 
Dan C

Thank you Dan. This is what we see in the Scriptures. So, it is very different then the so called traditional church. We don't have a name. Ourside of our names, like you. I see in the Scriptures that they are called the "saints" in a particular city. Now some of that might be because maybe businesses and everything didn't have names. Or as far as I know. But also when I read the Scriptures, I see that Paul didn't want there to be divisions in the church. Or denominations...  I used to teach Mathematics and the word denominator in a fraction is a division. Yeshua in John 17 also prayed that there would be no divisions. That's part of our reasoning. We are communities and we take care of one another. The church is supposed to be centered all around "One Another." Many churches nowadays are centered around the pastor and the building and the meeting for the purpose of attracting more people to themselves. And sadly where I am, in trying to receive as much money as possible. So, they try to put up a good show. Never seeing what the Scriptures really teach. 

[alon]

Rav Shaul, or Paul did not want division in the body of believers, that is true. However at the time there were many Jewish sects. Those who believed in Yeshua (Jesus) as HaMoshiach (the Christ) joined themselves to the sect of the Notsarim (Nazarenes). Rav Shaul himself was a Pharisee:

Acts 23:6 (ESV) Now when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees. It is with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial.”

Yet he was also a member of and leader in the sect of the Notsarim:

Acts 24:5 (ESV) For we have found this man a plague, one who stirs up riots among all the Jews throughout the world and is a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes.

The fact is that at this time there were divisions; many things that needed to be worked out in this new sect of Judaism. However they could be worked out in an orderly manner by those in leadership, appointed by the Most High Himself:

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/1726/matt-16-keys-kingdom-heaven

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3746/galations-1-17

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/4292/1-corinthians-4-6

Those are a few threads here dealing with the role of a shaliach, or apostle in the sect of the Notsarim. It was they who made up the council at Yerushalayim (actually the beit din or "house of judgement" in Jerusalem; the ruling body of the sect), and they who settled the inevitable disputes among the body of believers. They set halacha, the way those believers were to walk out . When they ruled, division was to cease. You cannot have the mixture of Jewish sects that made up the early sect of the Notsarim, let alone start allowing Gentiles in wholesale, and not have differences and divisions. But you can have a ruling authority to settle these differences, one to which you and everyone else would subvert their egos and wills to in humble obedience. And at the time those men were appointed by God Himself.

Today we hope this to be the case, however we see so many pastors and rabbis who for one reason or another go off the deep end. All I can say is before you follow someone over a cliff, be doggone sure who that person is and what he represents. But yes, if you are a member of a church or synagogue, you are agreeing to be obedient to their authority. Does that mean if you are with Jim Jones when the Cool-Aid is passed around you drink? No, you can opt out at any time- and that would seem to me to be a good time to say "You know what, I change my mind ..."

But our God is a God of order. There is a hierarchy even in the smallest groups of believers. Divisions and strife will occur in any situation where men are involved. Bt there is a proper way to settle these differences. And that, I think, is what the Apostle Paul wanted us to understand and subvert our wills to. There is also a learning curve when coming into a new faith such as that of the Notsarim. Never should a leader get to the point he is so high up on a pedestal he cannot come to the congregation and say "I made a mistake, " or "I learned something new today." I mentioned that Rav S (my rabbi) literally grew up at the feet of some of the founders of the modern Messianic movement. I had the privilege of speaking with his father, Dr. Chester, a few times, and he said any of those men (who he knew well) would tell you they are still learning even today. Rav S has told me the same thing. So if they are still learning, I'd think you and I (and all of us) doggone well should be too! That doesn't make anyone a bad leader- in fact, I think it is one of the things that makes a great leader!

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

I also think we have to wait on Jewish people to take the lead again for us to find unity. That's how it was when the congregation was at it's best, and I think that's good because it shows G-d's faithfulness. That won't happen again till they call on Yeshua and He returns. G-d puts things in order when the Jewish remnant is with Yeshua, and that's as it should be because salvation is from the Jews. At least that's how I consider it so I can have more patience and reasonable expectations. G-d is faithful to wait on the Jewish remnant, and so we have to wait and when I think about it like that, I can wait more happily and be more long-suffering.

[alon]

Aug 18, 2018 14:34:42 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

I also think we have to wait on Jewish people to take the lead again for us to find unity. That's how it was when the congregation was at it's best, and I think that's good because it shows G-d's faithfulness. That won't happen again till they call on Yeshua and He returns. G-d puts things in order when the Jewish remnant is with Yeshua, and that's as it should be because salvation is from the Jews. At least that's how I consider it so I can have more patience and reasonable expectations. G-d is faithful to wait on the Jewish remnant, and so we have to wait and when I think about it like that, I can wait more happily and be more long-suffering.

Yes, to a point. I once told a Jewish friend that if he were to become a believer, in many ways he would be my rabbi- my teacher.

However we can allow those who've gone before and left a record of their thinking and beliefs to lead us. I won't say I am completely successful (ok, I'm mostly unsuccessful) at thinking Hebraically. But I can try to interpret scripture in the terms of the men who wrote it and who they were writing to. I can look at other writings to see how they talked, what is meant by their idioms, and how they thought. We don't have to wait to be led by Jewish believers. However I agree, it will be great when we have an abundance of them right here with us!

On the other hand, remember that Jews today were raised in Rabbinical Judaism. Most Gentiles would never go to the lengths they go to in obedience. I have a friend, a believer who I don't see very often. He is from an Orthodox background; still has his peyos, dresses in black and wears his tallit katan outside his shirt but under a vest. He posted pictures last Pesach of his house in preparation for the day. As they cleaned out the leaven, everything (counter-tops, couch, lamps, ... everything!) was wrapped in foil. I kind of think that may be overdoing it, but then I was raised a pagan (Southern Baptist), but I have trouble thinking the 1st cen Jew went and bought a dozen rolls of Renolds Wrap and did up their house. So I suspect there would still be conflict ...

Dan (the hat is all I'm agreeing to do) C

[Elizabeth]

Aug 18, 2018 15:17:28 GMT -8 alon said:

On the other hand, remember that Jews today were raised in Rabbinical Judaism. Most Gentiles would never go to the lengths they go to in obedience. I have a friend, a believer who I don't see very often. He is from an Orthodox background; still has his peyos, dresses in black and wears his tallit katan outside his shirt but under a vest. He posted pictures last Pesach of his house in preparation for the day. As they cleaned out the leaven, everything (counter-tops, couch, lamps, ... everything!) was wrapped in foil. I kind of think that may be overdoing it, but then I was raised a pagan (Southern Baptist), but I have trouble thinking the 1st cen Jew went and bought a dozen rolls of Renolds Wrap and did up their house. So I suspect there would still be conflict ...

Dan (the hat is all I'm agreeing to do) C

Ha, between my diary of spiritual struggles and your foil hat, I'm getting concerned.

[messianic]

Yes, I agree, we should never think that we have arrived. How can we ever feel superior in the ways of G-d? And yes, we can learn from anyone. I have a lot of little children here in the churches. When they share, many times, I learn a lot.