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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 6, 2018 8:52:11 GMT -8
I just watched a movie called The Messenger. It's about the decline of song birds based on human manipulation of the environment including climate change. I know that's controversial, especially in the believing community, so treading lightly here. Nevertheless, I can't help but personally feel like somethings is going on climate wise just based on my own life experience.
I'm just curious about people's thoughts on how much you think humans can impact G-d's creation. Here's my thoughts. G-d gave us dominion. Do we have to be at odds with environmentalists on this one issue, that people have and are negatively impacting the environment? I think He has given us enough authority to actually change the perfect system He has put into place everywhere else so maybe we did throw it off.
When you think of how delicate everything is, is it so far fetched to think He has allowed us the ability to corrupt what He has put in place to that extent? He tells us we'll always have seasons, praise G-d, but just the fact He tells us that says a lot. He saw this coming, maybe it is coming from us to a certain extent as just a consequence. Perhaps He's just showing us His perfect wisdom in comparison to our inability and foolishness.
I'm really grateful He is going to destroy this world. I surprise myself to say that, but if He doesn't, we will. He will create and have dominion and I'm just thankful that ensures there will always be life and someday it will be in absolute perfection. That sentiment, the perfection of Creation, isn't at odds with environmentalists though a lot else might be.
After watching that movie, I was convicted. G-d created things so perfectly and how much we are accountable for is beyond our comprehension. We do have dominion and so we are responsible for the earth to a certain extent. I guess the issue is to what extent. Basically, I think we would destroy it so G-d is going to step in to do it His way. That's because His way leads to redemption, salvation, and a new creation.
Regardless, perhaps we can have a voice that doesn't leave out the Creator in this conversation. Maybe this is somewhat in reaction to the great polarization in society that frustrates me because it's hard to find a voice because of stereotypes. Climate change deniers are categorized one way and climate change believers another, and it's curious to me how the lines are drawn based on these stereotypes given G-d's first expressesion of Himself to us is through Creation. It's no accident that that is where He tends to be left out of the conversation. This is how He first kind of reaches out to people.
I don't think it has to always be about argument and debate, maybe it can sometimes just be about pointing to His revealing of truth, and you know what, environmentalists do back that up as they see so much out of order in the environment. I think they are seeing a spiritual truth that reveals G-d even if they don't realize it. This world is going to end. They are going to look to science and make us out to be ignorant and such, but I do wonder if maybe this is a place we need to talk more about G-d in terms of what we are agreeing on somehow. They love His Creation, but the adversary is trying to push us out of the conversation so no one sees the obvious. G-d is perfect and loving. It's reflected in what He's made, but we are helpless and corrupt and it's reflected in what we have done to what He's made. It's just frustrating, to see the devil shutting Him out of the conversation based on political and social stereotypes.
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Post by alon on Aug 6, 2018 16:29:03 GMT -8
I just watched a movie called The Messenger. It's about the decline of song birds based on human manipulation of the environment including climate change. I know that's controversial, especially in the believing community, so treading lightly here. Nevertheless, I can't help but personally feel like somethings is going on climate wise just based on my own life experience. I'm just curious about people's thoughts on how much you think humans can impact G-d's creation. Here's my thoughts. G-d gave us dominion. Do we have to be at odds with environmentalists on this one issue, that people have and are negatively impacting the environment? I think He has given us enough authority to actually change the perfect system He has put into place everywhere else so maybe we did throw it off. When you think of how delicate everything is, is it so far fetched to think He has allowed us the ability to corrupt what He has put in place to that extent? He tells us we'll always have seasons, praise G-d, but just the fact He tells us that says a lot. He saw this coming, maybe it is coming from us to a certain extent as just a consequence. Perhaps He's just showing us His perfect wisdom in comparison to our inability and foolishness. I'm really grateful He is going to destroy this world. I surprise myself to say that, but if He doesn't, we will. He will create and have dominion and I'm just thankful that ensures there will always be life and someday it will be in absolute perfection. That sentiment, the perfection of Creation, isn't at odds with environmentalists though a lot else might be. After watching that movie, I was convicted. G-d created things so perfectly and how much we are accountable for is beyond our comprehension. We do have dominion and so we are responsible for the earth to a certain extent. I guess the issue is to what extent. Basically, I think we would destroy it so G-d is going to step in to do it His way. That's because His way leads to redemption, salvation, and a new creation. Regardless, perhaps we can have a voice that doesn't leave out the Creator in this conversation. Maybe this is somewhat in reaction to the great polarization in society that frustrates me because it's hard to find a voice because of stereotypes. Climate change deniers are categorized one way and climate change believers another, and it's curious to me how the lines are drawn based on these stereotypes given G-d's first expressesion of Himself to us is through Creation. It's no accident that that is where He tends to be left out of the conversation. This is how He first kind of reaches out to people. I don't think it has to always be about argument and debate, maybe it can sometimes just be about pointing to His revealing of truth, and you know what, environmentalists do back that up as they see so much out of order in the environment. I think they are seeing a spiritual truth that reveals G-d even if they don't realize it. This world is going to end. They are going to look to science and make us out to be ignorant and such, but I do wonder if maybe this is a place we need to talk more about G-d in terms of what we are agreeing on somehow. They love His Creation, but the adversary is trying to push us out of the conversation so no one sees the obvious. G-d is perfect and loving. It's reflected in what He's made, but we are helpless and corrupt and it's reflected in what we have done to what He's made. It's just frustrating, to see the devil shutting Him out of the conversation based on political and social stereotypes. The climate has always changed and always will. Extremist liberals picked up on this as a way to keep everyone worked up and to pass idiotic laws to control people. I do agree however that man was given dominion and the job of caring for this world. And we are destroying it in many ways. Those song birds probably were effected far more by eating treated seeds and bugs that had themselves been poisoned. Also as food supplies dwindle so does the animal species they support. The real problem is that environmentalists use red-herrings like climate change to draw our attention away from the real problems. I'll give you an example I know to be true. It's a nationwide scandal that broke in the late '80's in the town where I attend synagogue. And my sister was friends with the mayor of this town. I worked in the fertilizer industry in the region at the time, so I had a bit of an inside look at what was happening. I was also a Haz-Mat responder both at work and for our volunteer Emergency Services. I'm going to keep names of places and people out of this because it has caused a lot of anger and division here already. A farmers field was destroyed, and testing showed hazardous waste had been dumped on it; not in one spot, but spread uniformly all over the field. He was being stonewalled by every government agency which was supposed to be handling his case, so even though he lived outside her jurisdiction he went to the mayor of the nearest small town. She, a Republican and staunch conservative teemed up with a liberal journalist from a nearby city. What they uncovered was monstrous. Hazardous waste, including solvents, medical waste, low grade radioactive waste- you name it and it was being mixed with fertilizers and spread on farmers fields without their knowledge. The more they looked the more they found. This was a nationwide practice by some Ag Supply companies. They were being paid to dispose of this waste. And several workers got sick handling the products without knowing what it was. These evil people even had a slogan, "Dilution is the solution." And it was made legal by the federal agencies that supposedly provided overwatch on waste disposal and our food supply. Not surprisingly politicians from both sides of the aisle who were getting kickbacks to allow this came out in force to squash this story. The mayor and reporter were vilely abused and accused of all manner of things. Business as usual for politicians. But people also turned on each other: businessmen who I had dealings with but whose livelihood depended on the Ag business came out strongly against the mayor, as did the Ag businesses themselves and their employees. In fact, in a rural town most people came out against her. Those who supported the mayor found themselves ostracized and even attacked. But the surprising thing is that every single major environmental group also signed off on this! Every*dawgone*one*of*them! They wanted the recycling issue at this time, and this is what they were willing to trade off to get it- dumping poisons into our food supply. So there were a lot of powerful organizations, industry, political parties, unions, and other crooks that made these people look like fools. And the story got squashed. I said all that to say this: if you are looking for people to get together and solve anything, you will be sorely disappointed. Giving money to these organizations may make you feel better, but it is worse than a waste; you would be supporting evil. But the good news is that I read the book- we win! So I wouldn't waste a lot of time worrying about our environmental problems. We'll get a whole new environment one day, Baruch HaShem! Dan c . |
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 7, 2018 6:08:12 GMT -8
It probably is such an interwoven mess people don't have much of a place to start toward really changing anything. There were many factors that they mentioned and one of them was treated seeds. All of them were man's doing.
I wasn't thinking about sending money or becoming some sort of an activist or anything. I just think it's telling and upsetting the way the conversation lines have been drawn. If people have thrown the environment and ecosystem off, I don't think it's necessarily contrary to what we believe, but we're wrote out of the conversation based on stereotypes and science. I was just looking for the common ground, and I think there is some regarding everyday people who do not see G-d but nevertheless appreciate the complexity and awe of His Creation. It's kind of the opposite of what we talked about in a different post with people seeking but not seeing. They're seeing something greater than us, but not seeking. I'm trying to figure out how to bring G-d back into the conversation because I think there may be some perspective there for some people. I don't know, maybe not, so I'll just point out where I think the devil is working. I think he's working here based on the social, political, cultural lines we've drawn.
It's just a shame someone could love His creation so much and the devil uses an ideological system based on stereotypes to prevent them from allowing themselves to see His nature and character being expressed in it, especially because that is His primary way of reaching out to people. We can do that though. We should be blessing G-d a lot more when we see His creation. I also think we could seek to take care of it. It's a gift of G-d.
I recently read through some Jewish prayers and was struck by how consistent it felt to bless G-d for the "little" things you notice, including in nature. I didn't know what to do with it exactly because I kind of do that anyway in a different less intentional way; to actually have to get out the book, take the time to memorize the prayer that doesn't seem to necessarily express everything your sensing, and then have to remember it seemed spiritually stifling. I wasn't sure if that's the way I wanted to do it cause it seems kind of like an intrusion; like when you're enjoying life and someone wants a picture. You have to pose and pretend you're as happy as you used to be.
Now, I think maybe it is better we are more methodical and intentional with it somehow though. I don't know why, but maybe it would just permeate our lives and serve as some sort of witness that it is G-d Who did this. Not sure, maybe I could get past the rehearsed lack of spontaneity part and actually find its better somehow....just making sure He is part of the picture. I know He's there but I guess it could be a way of making sure we show it or reclaim His place in it. Bless Him instead of letting people leave Him out.
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Post by alon on Aug 7, 2018 7:28:18 GMT -8
It probably is such an interwoven mess people don't have much of a place to start toward really changing anything. There were many factors that they mentioned and one of them was treated seeds. All of them were man's doing. I wasn't thinking about sending money or becoming some sort of an activist or anything. I just think it's telling and upsetting the way the conversation lines have been drawn. If people have thrown the environment and ecosystem off, I don't think it's necessarily contrary to what we believe, but we're wrote out of the conversation based on stereotypes and science. I was just looking for the common ground, and I think there is some regarding everyday people who do not see G-d but nevertheless appreciate the complexity and awe of His Creation. It's kind of the opposite of what we talked about in a different post with people seeking but not seeing. They're seeing something greater than us, but not seeking. I'm trying to figure out how to bring G-d back into the conversation because I think there may be some perspective there for some people. I don't know, maybe not, so I'll just point out where I think the devil is working. I think he's working here based on the social, political, cultural lines we've drawn. It's just a  someone could love His creation so much and the devil uses an ideological system based on stereotypes to prevent them from allowing themselves to see His nature and character being expressed in it, especially because that is His primary way of reaching out to people. We can do that though. We should be blessing G-d a lot more when we see His creation. I also think we could seek to take care of it. It's a gift of G-d. I recently read through some Jewish prayers and was struck by how consistent it felt to bless G-d for the "little" things you notice, including in nature. I didn't know what to do with it exactly because I kind of do that anyway in a different less intentional way; to actually have to get out the book, take the time to memorize the prayer that doesn't seem to necessarily express everything your sensing, and then have to remember it seemed spiritually stifling. I wasn't sure if that's the way I wanted to do it cause it seems kind of like an intrusion; like when you're enjoying life and someone wants a picture. You have to pose and pretend you're as happy as you used to be. Now, I think maybe it is better we are more methodical and intentional with it somehow though. I don't know why, but maybe it would just permeate our lives and serve as some sort of witness that it is G-d Who did this. Not sure, maybe I could get past the rehearsed lack of spontaneity part and actually find its better somehow....just making sure He is part of the picture. I know He's there but I guess it could be a way of making sure we show it or reclaim His place in it. Bless Him instead of letting people leave Him out. I think you are correct. There is a place people can change things, and that is on the "organic" level. Bt that I mean we at the users end- individuals who make better choices in purchasing and producing our own (gardens, making wooden toys instead of buying plastic, etc.), and the producers themselves. Here's something I found (if I can get this to work): [It didn't work. Basically it was a story on all the hype about the bee population dyeing off and how we are going to starve without them and we deserve it for killing them in the first place (though they admit the "scientists" don't know why the bees are dying). Meanwhile the bee industry solved the problem and there are now 20% more bees than at any time before. But they never tell us that ... and as an aside, it occurred to me that the African Bee menace has failed to destroy us either. Come to think of it, I've never heard of a single country where they destroyed agriculture. There were a few tragic deaths, which got a lot of media attention at one time. But since we are all still eating and have not all been stung to death the story just sort of faded away, with no apologies for all the hype, of course.]We've all grown to dependent on government solving our problems. They are almost always part of the problem in the first place; never part of the solution. That'd be you and me in our everyday lives. And we should honor God both in our choices, in our prayers, and to others we interact with. Never be ashamed to let your faith show as an example to others. The only way we are going to change anything is one person at a time right where we are. And if I am reading you right, the solution is based on sharing our faith, not our political agenda. And I'd agree. ... It's interesting you are studying Jewish prayers. I've been doing the same recently. I was thinking about doing a write up on some of what I'm learning, but there just always seems more to learn! I might do that in the near future. It would be interesting to get yours and others insights on them as well. But when you study them from say a siddur (or online), they seem methodical and intentional because they are. There are 2 types of prayer in Judaism. One is the spontaneous prayer, whether a sudden cry for help or the unstructured (bad word, but all I could think of) prayer where we just talk with God. The other is the very structured regular prayers said at specific times. These were instituted after the destruction of the First Temple to replace the sacrifices. They are meant to be a sacrifice themselves, and not changed except by an authority such as a rabbi (Yeshua giving the "Lord's Prayer" to His disciples as a shorter version of the Amidah to be said when the regular prayer could not be, for example). I once asked my rabbi about inserting specific prayers as I said my Amidah, and he said if I did so he'd recommend I give those afterwards. I didn't understand at the time, but after my studies so far I am coming to see why. Which reminds me, I'm going to have to update my "I Found Out I Was Wrong" thread soon ... that one never seems quite to go away.  But studying those very structured prayers does help me to in my regular, everyday prayers. Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 7, 2018 9:16:18 GMT -8
Exactly what I'm saying. I watched this and was praising G-d and praying throughout, including how is it He never enters the conversation. We have people who see something or a part of the whole we can't grasp. Believers see that ungraspable something as an expression of G-d's infinite ability and wisdom, and as such we submit to Him.
They see the story of one species, kind of. They see how little we know just based on that one tiny little part of what He's done that they can kind of see. It's like how much has He done if this one little part is so revealing and big to us, but I think that big picture is where you see a glimpse of G-d so it stops there. They see the interconnection, the fragility, they see how little we understand and yet how much we influence, and then there's a block. G-d needs to be in that conversation because that overwhelm is kind of where you glimpse Him I think, and the blessings I mentioned I think are how He's showing me one little way of including Him.
There was a lot I didn't agree with and some I had to fast forward through, but in terms of gratitude for life and a feeling of responsibility and accountability, we can agree. What we need to extend into the conversation is that only G-d can do this and keep it. So the problems we see are a reflection of G-d giving us dominion over His creation but leaving Him out, but He is even being left out of the conversation.
There was a mention of false gods and mythological references here and there, but the One true G-d, never mentioned. I think hasatsn has to be in on it; high jacking the work of G-d to lead people away from the truth. Why are they so comfortable bringing in false religions and mythology, but truth never gets a mention?
It compares birds to messengers and draws historical and mythological references or connections to make their statement. yet, never a mention of the dove that G-d sent to Noah in the ark, even as just a story.....that's an example of what I mean of leaving Him out. Meanwhile, they are seeing something beyond them that testifies to Him. It's awful to think what we've done to Him because this is His creation, and it's so hard to see Him trying to reach people through it but them not getting to that understanding that they're seeing an expression of the perfection and wisdom of G-d and our place is big in its smallness. That's what I feel when I'm with Him, and it's mentioned in the Psalms so
i think its right....what is man that You take notice of Him. What they are feeling, I believe is that sentiment expressed in the Psalm and when you're at a certain place in the presence of G-d, but G-d is not a part of their experience in their heart and mind. Yet, clearly they're witnessing something testifying to Him, so again, He's being left out. I just think we could bring Him in more, and these blessings may be something He's telling me to do to help me with that. Maybe I do need to think more actively about it and be intentional in my effort. It doesn't have to be works verses spirit, because it does involve work on my part, it could just be about both. He's supplied the Spirit and maybe it's just a way of Him humbling me to know my place and do something intentional with it.
I would be interested in what you're learning and just thinking it through more thoroughly. It's exciting to me that Judaism has left a more deliberate place for what we're talking about, and it just happened to tie in for me to things this movie brought up, but this is just a very recent realization to me so hearing what you've learned would help me as I think it through.
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Post by alon on Aug 7, 2018 9:47:28 GMT -8
Exactly what I'm saying. I watched this and was praising G-d and praying throughout, including how is it He never enters the conversation. We have people who see something or a part of the whole we can't grasp. We see that as an expression of G-d and as such we submit to His wisdom. They see the story of one species. They see how little we know just based on that one tiny little part of what He'a done. It's like how much has He done if this one little part is so revealing and big to us, but I think that big picture is where you see a glimpse of G-d so it stops there. They see the interconnection, the fragility, they see how little we understand and yet how much we influence, and then there's a block. G-d needs to be in that conversation, and the blessings I mentioned I think are how He's showing me one little way of including Him. There was a lot I didn't agree with and some I had to fast forward through, but in terms of gratitude for life and a feeling of responsibility and accountability, we can agree. This is a reflection of G-d giving us dominion over His creation, but our G-d is being left out. There was a mention of false gods and mythological references here and there, but the One true G-d, never mentioned. I think hasatsn has to be in on it; high jacking the work of G-d to lead people away from the truth. Why are they so comfortable bring in false religions and mythology, but truth never gets a mention? It compares birds to messengers and draws all these historical and mythological connections to make their statement. yet, never a mention of the dove that G-d sent to Noah in the ark, even as just a story.....that's an example of what I mean if leaving Him out. Meanwhile, they are seeing something beyond them that testifies to Him. It's awful to think what we've done to Him because this is His creation, and it's  to see Him trying to reach people through it but then not getting to that understanding of what they're seeing. LOL, I just finished reading about the presence of fractals in Jewish prayer! Those fairly recently discovered repeating patterns found in nature and mathematics. You know, the way those interesting screen savers are generated: frac·tal (frăk′təl) A geometric pattern repeated at ever smaller scales to produce irregular shapes and surfaces that cannot be represented by standard geometry. Even the most minute details of a fractal's pattern repeat elements of the overall geometric pattern. Fractals are widely used in computer modeling of irregular patterns and structures in nature, such as the patterns of seasonal weather. They are also considered to be a visual representation of chaos. That definition alone, typical of all I saw, by the way, is a perfect representation of what you are talking about. It stresses the use in man made designs over the fact they have appeared in nature since creation- the shells of many animals, snow, all crystals, and even rocks and dirt. And of course in Jewish prayer at least since the Babylonian exile. The phenomenon was first observed in nature, which was the basis for the mathematics, but since this very implicitly says there is a creator at work and not just random accidents, that is conspicuously absent in every definition I saw. And I looked at several. Note too the emphasis at the end on chaos. Chaos! In the beauty of nature built on a pattern they see chaos. It boggles the mind. But if you admit there is intelligent design outside what man does, then you have to believe there is a designer. And that designer makes both the rules of nature and the rules of our conduct. Oh, horrors! This means we'd have to be ... OBEDIENT! I think that since man has failed so badly in making himself a god, we in the 20th and 21st centuries have tried to make ourselves gods as a collective. That is why socialism is such a prevalent menace despite its 100% failure rate and demonstrably monstrous evil in large scale (governmental) applications. It's why so many women and gays support Islam, despite its record of killing both every chance it gets. But any god but God, right? Dan C edit: I wanted to address this part of your post,"They see how little we know just based on that one tiny little part of what He'a done.," but I got sidetracked. Most Jewish prayer goes from the general to the specific. 'Thanks to God for the wheat He made to grow, and thanks for this bread.' We also see the mountainside where a large slab of rock has fallen away. There we can see the basic underlying structure of the mountain. It's also in the broken rocks at the base, and under a microscope there it is again. It's in a fern, which very obviously has repeating leaves and stems. But a closer look at the leaves reveals the same structure as the plant. And in these things we also see the immutable laws of nature. Things decay, but that gives way to new life. Decay on the forest floor supports the fern and other plants, as well as bugs and microbes. Rocks crumble to dust and support vegetation, help filter water and so on. I used to climb, and we'd go up to Canada and do some mixed rock climbing and ice climbing. We weren't supposed to, because it is very dangerous; but I used to explore ice caverns in the glaciers. They were beautiful examples of repeating patterns mixed with the apparently random patterns of external patterns such as water flow. But if you looked closely you could see the natural logic in those patterns as well. I may not have been too intelligent going in there, but there was definitely an intelligent mind at work in their creation! You just had to look for the order and not focus on the apparent chaos! |
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 7, 2018 10:02:37 GMT -8
Ha, thats no accident......I guess you do need to share what you're learning with us.  |
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Post by alon on Aug 7, 2018 10:11:46 GMT -8
I was typing an edit when you posted that. Yes, I think I will. But it may be a while as there is a lot I need to learn on the topic before I tackle it. I am learning not to be too quick to "share." I think of posts I made earlier while I am studying and realize "I am really going to look stupid when I correct that one!"  Oh well; as long as ya'll can allow me to be human ... Dan (kinda mortified) C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 7, 2018 10:57:00 GMT -8
I was typing an edit when you posted that. Yes, I think I will. But it may be a while as there is a lot I need to learn on the topic before I tackle it. I am learning not to be too quick to "share." I think of posts I made earlier while I am studying and realize "I am really going to look stupid when I correct that one!" Oh well; as long as ya'll can allow me to be human ... Dan (kinda mortified) C Being mortified may be a good indication that you have something to offer. I wouldn't be ashamed of past misunderstandings and confusion because you do your best to correct it and we all bring that here somehow someway. But you would know more if G-d wants you to share it. Please don't feel pressured to share just cause I asked you. I could do more on my own and maybe that's what I need to do. Don't feel obligated if G-d isn't leading you to it. What you've shared so far, especially in the edit, has been really interesting, consistent with my thoughts yet much more expansive than them, and helpful though. Thanks! |
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Post by alon on Aug 7, 2018 12:50:06 GMT -8
Not a problem. First off, as you said I need to correct what I wrote earlier (my shattered ego notwithstanding  ). And I'm going to study it anyhow, but writing it down helps organize my thoughts as well as to retain a small portion of what I study. Lastly it will go in my notes where I am sure to remember I have it, but just as surely won't remember where I filed it so I can waste a lot of time in the future looking for it!  Here's something from my Koren Siddur which I thought you might enjoy: If I had to come up with a description of giving it to God, I don't think I could do better than that! We are dust. But the same hand that fractured the mountain and created a glacier at its base to grind rock to dust also gives us glimpses of eternity, including our present existence (we always forget that when contemplating eternity ...), and His hand at work in views from the peaks and the depths of the caves. Both are beautiful, and inspire a sense of awe. Nights under the stars give us a sense of something outside our own world. In many ancient cultures (and present day phobias) the night and forests were feared because they concealed dangers, so we give thanks each morning when we wake safely. And that is what prayer does for us when done right. We appreciate the night (as opposed to despair) as well as the morning (deliverance), enjoy the view from the top (praises and entreaties) and explore the meanings in the depths (study  ); we see the wonders of a God at work and know if he can do all this with a big rock and some water, he can do something with my life. I don't have to understand everything I see. I just have to trust the one I see at work in all I see. Dan (see) And while I'm at it, this is a good time to give thanks that I can still see. The surgery went well and recovery seems to be doing well also, baruch HaShem! C |
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Post by jimmie on Aug 8, 2018 14:57:41 GMT -8
My personal thoughts on climate change.
I fail to see how anyone who has read their bible can believe man does not cause climate change.
In Genesis 3, the acts of man causes the land to be cursed, making the land bring forth thorns and thistles.
In Genesis 4, the acts of Cain cause the land to be cursed again. The land would not yield anything for him.
In Genesis 7, the acts of man caused a worldwide flood.
In Genesis 19, the acts of man cause fire and brimstone to burn the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.
In Exodus, the acts of man caused the 10 plagues to come upon Egypt.
Didn’t Alijah cause the rain to cease for 3.5 years.
In Revelation the actions of man causes all kinds of climate change and in Revelation 11:18 God declares he will destroy those who destroy the earth.
Yes man causes drastic climate change because he refuses to “dress and keep it” as the Lord commands.
I forgot to mention that Israel spent the same number of years in captivity as the number of years that they neglected to properly take care of their land.
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 10, 2019 15:42:40 GMT -8
It takes me a while to figure out what bothers me about something sometimes. I think this is what is troubling me, and it's related to the way we draw political and social lines in our culture that seems to lend the appearance of the idea of compassion and stewardship over to the unG-dly. I think the issue I'm bothered by is broader than just the one here that I'm discussing, as it seems to underlie a lot of the extremes in our culture that seem to be leaving out any room for G-d in the practice and concerns of daily lives in our culture.
I don't like that it seems like the unG-dly are taking the role in caring for G-d's earth because in that, they leave Him out. They have the appearance of being the one's hurt and wronged. G-d gave the commandment for us to have dominion over His creation, but it feels like we've kind of divorced ourselves from that according to political lines and handed the appearance of that duty over to those who deny Him. I think because we're just kind of waiting for it to end. That's a tactic of the devil I am convinced because it's a commandment of G-d that we have dominion and care for the earth. I just don't think we should give up on it regardless of the truth it's dying. It's G-d's creation and it's dying because of sin and our failure to do His will.
I don't know how to say what I'm trying to say, but it just feels like anything the devil can do to leave G-d and the idea of sin out of the conversation, he'll do it. Meanwhile, it's fundamental to the issue, and yet it's the unG-dly who have the appearance of some warped type of sanctification and holiness. This is G-d's creation, not ours, and that's where we can offer more conversation I think. The conversation could be more about repentance and humility regarding that truth rather than just allowing those who deny Him and His plan to glorify themselves.
I know the earth is going to end, but it's still His creation. I think maybe we need to humble the entire conversation down with discussing His place in it, if we can. Yes the earth is going to end, but we still do our job as best we can. That's what G-d does. He didn't give up on us just because we're dying. It just helps us know His heart as the Creator and as the One Whose creation we destroyed. It's a way we can acknowledge what we've done and that we broke His heart in making it fall, but mostly I think we should fight for His place in this conversation just because His glory is still in this Creation that is dying. That's Who He is. He doesn't give up or abandon. That's just a picture of His mercy and grace to me. I don't think I'm far off either because consider all the parables Yeshua taught using seeds and nature. Grace can literally be pictured in a seed. You just throw it on the ground, and with what G-d provides, it grows and produces abundantly. That's amazing to me, and I don't think we should just hand the topic of environment over to the unG-dly because we'll lose something precious to our testimony I think. It is so profound, but they seem to be high jacking it somehow, and I'm annoyed that people don't have to see what we've done to Him and His Creation. Instead they are being lead to just think about themselves and their loss while finding a way to make themselves feel and look superior through it.
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- there are 70 faces to 
someone could love His creation so much and the devil uses an ideological system based on stereotypes to prevent them from allowing themselves to see His nature and character being expressed in it, especially because that is His primary way of reaching out to people. We can do that though. We should be blessing G-d a lot more when we see His creation. I also think we could seek to take care of it. It's a gift of G-d.
to see Him trying to reach people through it but then not getting to that understanding of what they're seeing. 
). And I'm going to study it anyhow, but writing it down helps organize my thoughts as well as to retain a small portion of what I study. Lastly it will go in my notes where I am sure to remember I have it, but just as surely won't remember where I filed it so I can waste a lot of time in the future looking for it! 
