|
|
Post by texaswoman on Dec 26, 2017 9:58:44 GMT -8
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another,
even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.
...
But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing (making) of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Dec 26, 2017 16:06:43 GMT -8
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another. ... But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing (making) of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body. It would help if you referenced the chapter and verse as well as the translation when quoting the Bible. John 13:34-35 (NASB) A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”So contextually this is telling us that our love for one another as Meshiachim is what makes us known to the world. It is not a commandment to just love everyone, nor is it the establishment of a "love cult." Too many people today will try to convince you that "A loving God wouldn't do that to us." Trust me, if He said He would, He will. And all the love theology in the world (and there is a LOT) won't dissuade Him from carrying out His justice. Neither was this a "new" commandment. It is a renewed covenant. All through the TNK (OT) Jews are told to love each other. And in the original Hebrew text of this letter the terms "new" and "renewed" are the same word, חדשה chadashah. And since there is nothing "new" in the "New Testament," contextually the B'rith Chadashah is a "Renewed Covenant," not a new Greek legal document. Just as this is a renewed, not a "new" commandment.
Ecclesiastes 12:11-13 (NASB) The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd. But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body. The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.Your second quote contextually deals with excessive writings. Many men write books today on their view of Messianic Judaism- what it is and where they think it should be going. And a lot of them use this "love" excuse as a sledge hammer to destroy any part of scripture they don't like. We don't do this here. And you've been here long enough to know we don't write about anything excessively. But what is written here s usually very much to the point, a discussion on various ideas, doctrines and meanings. It doesn't say not to write or study. It says don't do either too much. You need balance in your life. And when you do ead, be careful whose works you read. Dan C |
|
|
|
Post by texaswoman on Dec 30, 2017 23:52:15 GMT -8
You wrote "So contextually this is telling us that our love for one another as Meshiachim is what makes us known to the world. It is not a commandment to just love everyone, nor is it the establishment of a "love cult." Too many people today will try to convince you that "A loving God wouldn't do that to us." Trust me, if He said He would, He will. And all the love theology in the world (and there is a LOT) won't dissuade Him from carrying out His justice.
Read more: theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/4377/love-another?page=1#ixzz52p1dv9qd"================ You are correct, Alon, it is not a commandment to love just everyone and anyone ...
Two points: (for what they are worth)
1) The NKJV contains a footnote showing Lev: 19:18 as the scripture comparison for Matt 5:43.
"18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge AGAINST THE CHILDREN OF YOUR PEOPLE, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself" ... (Lev 19:18 NKJV)
So this Leviticus scripture told the Hebrews to love their close companions (H7453 derived from H7462) ... to love their fellow Hebrews as themselves.
It was not referring to the enemies who wanted to kill them.
Lev 19:33 does go on to say "love the stranger who resides with you in your land ... as yourself .. for you were once aliens in the land of Egypt." Again, this is not referring to foreign enemies outside the land who wanted to kill the Hebrews.
My Baptist brother says we are to "turn the other cheek".
I told him that only applied to fellow believers and to Roman soldiers who were persecuting the Hebrews in Jesus' day.
That Jesus was simply showing the Hebrews how to survive the Roman occupation so that things would be easier for them instead of resisting and making things worse.
Am I off on this interpretation?
2) The NASB (and the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer) show Yeshua prefacing these statements with "you hear that it was declared to the ancients" but He doesn't say "As it is written" ...
This is only of interest because the "hate your enemy" quote is nowhere to be found in the TNK or any of the associated Hebrew writings (Talmud/Mishna, etc) As a matter of fact, the Hebrew writings actually say that if your friend and your enemy are in need of help, to help the enemy first to create good will.
So if Yeshua was just quoting ancient "sayings" or "traditions", that would explain the "hate your enemies" statement.
It's not anywhere in Scripture, that I have found, anyway.You wrote: Neither was this a "new" commandment. It is a renewed covenant. All through the TNK (OT) Jews are told to love each other. And in the original Hebrew text of this letter the terms "new" and "renewed" are the same word, חדשה chadashah. And since there is nothing "new" in the "New Testament," contextually the B'rith Chadashah is a "Renewed Covenant," not a new Greek legal document. Just as this is a renewed, not a "new" commandment.
Read more: theloveofgod.proboards.com/post/new/4377#ixzz52p34iORgYes, this is not a "new" commandment.
The renewed (fresh) covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 was that the love for the Father's commandments would be written on our hearts ... and this, I believe, was accomplished through the life and death of Yeshua. He came to us in flesh and blood in human form that we could relate to and He created in us the "want to" not just the "have to" in following Abba's commandments.
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Dec 31, 2017 0:58:00 GMT -8
It sounds like you have a pretty good handle on the doctrine of love. The only thing I'd say is even in the days before Yeshua you "had to want to" trust the God of the Hebrews, worship Him only and develop a close walk with Him. His love was the same then and so was His salvation. Only they looked forward to the promise, and we look back on it: but both in faith. And only as long as we want to. Give the Baptists what for! I used to be one myself.  Dan  C |
|
|
|
Post by texaswoman on Dec 31, 2017 15:41:46 GMT -8
Then why did the Father say He would write His commandments on our hearts instead of stone? Sounds like He thought something was missing on our part ... Maybe it is because He wants us to really love Him and not just obey Him? This is the conundrum that I have found: Christians may have a skewed theology but they are more warm and friendly. Messianics/HR may have correct doctrine but their hearts often seem cold. Book knowledge is good and worthy and sound doctrine is the goal. But it seems that He wants more from us than just correct doctrine. I have experienced many hearts of stone in this walk. My hope is that we can regain our first love .. and show compassion, respect and genuine liking for other believers who may not see every jot and tittle as we do. Because it is love after all that truly lasts and matters. Yeshua died for us and asked the Father to forgive even those who called for His death. If He can do that, maybe we can smile and show respect and extend a warm hand to our fellow believers. Yes, He wants us to stand on truth but I believe He also wants us to reflect and share His love with our spiritual family .. be they Messianics, Hebrew Roots, Seventh Day Adventists ... or Baptists.  |
|
|
|
Post by alon on Dec 31, 2017 21:30:49 GMT -8
Then why did the Father say He would write His commandments on our hearts instead of stone? Sounds like He thought something was missing on our part ... Maybe it is because He wants us to really love Him and not just obey Him?
Hebrews 8:4-11 (ESV) 4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
8 For he finds fault with them when he says:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
These are the scriptural references for your question. It is a prophecy of the Olam HaBa (world to come). Christianity says it is for today, because they want an excuse to do whatever their heart desires. But they are wrong. We know this first because the prophecy is set in a passage in which Jeremiah says Israel is regathered and at peace. They are partially regathered now, but they have not been at peace since. To write the law on the peoples hearts is an idiom for memorization. I have yet to meat any Christian (or anyone else) who can quote for me just the book of Leviticus. It's hard enough to find one that's even read Leviticus! Almost none of them can even tell me all the Ten Commandments; so the law is most definitely NOT written on their hearts right now! The Hebrews passage uses this prophecy to compare the old Earthly things to the new Heavenly things. But again, this cannot be used to say it is a prophecy for today. Verse 11 says " And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest." But do we not still have to teach? Does everyone know the Lord? This will be the case only in the world to come. Depends. I have seen some downright frigid churches. But to be fair I've also seen some friendly ones. Most are luke warm to both God and visitors. And the one my wife goes to has been getting colder and colder to me as they see I'm not coming back. LOL, HR seldom has correct doctrine! I was in it for a long time when I was first leaving the church and after. And I laugh because I remember some of the things I had to unlearn from my HR days, even though I tried to be discerning then too. Book knowledge is essential At least there should be some in the body who have a lot of book learnin'. Otherwise doctrine can get crazy! Absolutely. We are to develop a walk with HaShem. We praise and worship Him alone. And we help our fellow man, especially Messianics. Sadly so have we all, from across denominational/sectarian lines. And we can all be guilty of this at times. I know I have, though it shames me to recall those times I was like that. Love is good ... however after I found this forum and started coming out of HR I, like may others was very angry at the church for a time. They had lied to me about EVERYTHING! But you are absolutely correct. I had to get ahold on that anger and remember that not long ago I was also blind. While I still do not forgive the church as a whole, I have to look at individuals there with compassion! Regarding all this knowledge HaShem is giving me, it isn't so I can go to sleep at night marveling at how smart I am. No! It is to be shared, and in such a way people will want more and finally they may accept the truth. I tend to think Yeshua did say that. However that's just 'cause I wanna. But we need to know that statement is not in the older source texts. It may have been added later by a monk who thought as you and I do that it is a good sentiment. But the  truth is that none of those who did or do not ask forgiveness and repent will be forgiven. They will one day face the man they killed as their Judge; a judge with the power and authority of God and One who has both a righteous mandate and the ability to punish them for eternity. Baptists!? You sure He wants us to be nice to the Baptists!!??  Actually I have a soft spot for Baptists. I was one. And though they are wrong, they and the Eastern Orthodox have the firmist grip on their doctrine and why they think it is so. And they both know it! That's why I love to tell them they are wrong!  Dan C edited: sorry. I was a bit sleep deprived when I wrote this initially. Cleaned it up and clarified a few things. As for the Baptists, I received my foundation in scripture from them. I also learned to think about what I was reading and/or hearing there. Possibly that's why there are so many ex-Baptists in MJ today. But they can be a tough sell. |
|
|
|
Post by texaswoman on Jan 1, 2018 21:15:58 GMT -8
Dan, Can you describe the differences between HR and MJ as you see them? The strife between these two communities is truly . What were the lies that you were taught in HR? Texas Woman PS - Does this call for a new thread? |
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jan 1, 2018 23:27:51 GMT -8
Messianic Judaism is an attempt to take our beliefs and form of worship as close as possible back to that of the 1st cen believers. It's the faith of the apostles, which was not just rooted in Judaism, but actually was Jewish. All of the Nots'rim (Nazarenes) were either Jews or proselytes to this very Jewish faith. Until the mid second cen all Judaism counted them as just another sect. After the Bar Kochba revolt however the Nots'rim were blamed for the loss of the war and subsequent diaspora. It was at this time Judaism split away from those early Messianics. Messianism never left Judaism, as was evidenced in the writings of the church fathers themselves clear up into (I believe) the 18th cen. One of the main tenets of Hebrew Roots (if HR could be said to have tenets) is an attempt to bridge the gap between the church and the Jews. The church developed completely apart from Judaism. Again the writings of the church fathers confirm this, though this fact is not talked about by Christian seminaries, colleges, or classrooms. The fathers and most of the church to this day were and are anti-Semeitc; some rabidly so. So there is no common ground on which to build that bridge. Furthermore HR is even more disjointed than Christianity, Judaism or Messianism. It is a free-for-all of ideas, from strict but perverse cults to the Disnie-like idea that "All Dogs Go To Heaven." Most fall in between the extremes, but with no real foundation in scripture or doctrine they literally fall for almost anything. So they not only are building that bridge to nowhere, but from nowhere as well. Look at how many of them fell into the "Blood Moon" trap recently. Which brings us to the lies. Let's first get it said that many of these lies they themselves believe to be true. But that makes them no less lies. And even the elect can fall into their trap (and me too, I'm afraid). For a short while in HR I believed the Book of Enoch to be legit. Now I know it to be a pseudopegraphical work, its' authorship lied about so that it would appear to be "ancient wisdom." Its' substance is also unsupported anywhere else in the Bible. Then there are the Sacred Names folks who would have you pronounce the Names as they do or be condemned to Hell. I never fell for that though. Two House, Two  , Noachides, and those wanting to pretend to be Jewish thrive there (though to be honest we have a problem with those in MJ too, though not as bad). Then there are the searches for the Ark, the Lost Tribes (found everywhere from Denmark to South Africa), the Red Heifer (like finding said cow will "allow" Messiah to come), and/or whatever people/relic/object of worship you can name. One of my biggest problems with HR now is it spills over into MJ in both public perception and sometimes in actuality. Ebionism, legalism, and anyotherism you care to name finds its way from HR into MJ. Partly because so many of us (like myself) found our start there when coming out of the church, and partly because many HR churches (or synagogues if you deign to call them that) try to gain respectability by saying they are MJ. Many like Mark Biltz call themselves pastor but don a tallit and kippah to preside over services. And many of them call themselves Rabbi while preaching Dispensational Christianity. Many too base their beliefs in Talmudic writings, but without any real understanding of that or any other Jewish writings (including the Bible). Not to say everything in HR is wrong. There was just enough truth there to keep me searching for a while until I discovered MJ. It was in HR I learned the New Testament was originally written in Hebrew, not Greek. I always suspected something was wrong, even as a child. But it was proven to me in HR and later confirmed by an in-depth teaching by Rav S. I also was introduced to the depth of meanings in the Hebrew language, and the different rules of scriptural exegesis. The difference in exegesis and eisogesis, and many Hebrew customs that make the Bible come alive. And obviously some in HR are closer to the truth than others. But one thing I learned in martial arts; a miss is a miss, whether by a mile or a fraction of an inch. But it is the close miss that is more dangerous to you, the one throwing the punch. Because your perception is you are landing a hit until your opponent takes advantage and counters. In biblical terms you "missed the mark." But biblically the consequences are far more devastating. And that is my biggest problem with HR right there. Dan C edit: no new thread necessary. The thread is short, and it just naturally went to this. So it's probably best left here unless you want to open a new thread for in depth discussion on the topic. |
|
|
|
Post by texaswoman on Jan 2, 2018 13:33:43 GMT -8
Thank you for your detailed response, Dan.
Yes, I would like to explore this further.
Where would the correct place for a new thread on "Hebrew Roots vs Messianic Jew"?
Also, I have heard about the "Father forgive them, they know not what they do" .. that it was possibly not in the original text. I just never researched it.
I wonder about the "Father why have You forsaken Me?" Was that in the original text?
Thanks again for being able to discuss these things without getting upset as so many people do.
Texas Woman
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jan 2, 2018 14:01:10 GMT -8
Probably "Early Christian Thinking and the Path Away From Judaism" is the best place for this discussion; even though it deals with contemporary manifestations of this earlier "split." The easiest way to find out if something is not in the earlier source documents is to look it up in theEnglish Standard Version. They go by the earliest known manuscript, so if a verse or passage is not found there it is not in the ESV. Luke 23:34 English Standard Version (ESV) And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments.
And there it is, so it must have been in at least some of the earlier manuscripts. I say must have been because that footnote says "Some manuscripts omit the sentence 'And Jesus… what they do.'"
Dan C |
|
- there are 70 faces to 
truth is that none of those who did or do not ask forgiveness and repent will be forgiven. They will one day face the man they killed as their Judge; a judge with the power and authority of God and One who has both a righteous mandate and the ability to punish them for eternity.
Actually I have a soft spot for Baptists. I was one. And though they are wrong, they and the Eastern Orthodox have the firmist grip on their doctrine and why they think it is so. And they both know it! That's why I love to tell them they are wrong! 
