Perspective on the writings of Paul?

[Elizabeth]

Therefore since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with G-d through our L-rd Yeshua the Messiah.  Through Him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of G-d.  Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because G-d's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit Who has been given to us.  For while we were still weak, at the right time, Messiah died for the ungodly.  For one will scarcely die for a righteous person - though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die - but G-d shows His love in that while we were still sinners, Messiah died for us.  Since therefore, we have been justified by His blood, much more shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of G-d.  For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to G-d by the death of His Son, much more, now that we are reconciled shall we be saved by His life.  More than that, we also rejoice in G-d through our L-rd Yeshua the Messiah, through Whom we have now received reconciliation.
Romans 5:1-11

I had a flash of a thought right before typing this and I am just looking for feedback to see if its worth going anywhere with, and asking for some direction from people who can provide more context and insight than I have if it is. 

Does remembering that Paul was speaking at a time when no Temple was standing and so technically the Torah could not be strictly upheld change the way you consider passages such as the above?  Consider the purposes of the sacrifices and the festivals.  Am I right to understand that the commandments related to Temple worship are broadly about being reconciled to G-d through forgiveness to fellowship with Him? I am just thinking that Paul may have been addressing how the grace of Yeshua is not only the source of salvation but overcomes our physical limitations to keep G-d's commandments that help us commune with Him.  Somehow this idea changes the debate for me. It seems like grace becomes less of an excuse to not keep the law.  For me, it becomes an actual source of authentic grace that addresses how we commune with G-d in spite of the physical and concrete limitation we have in keeping the commandments He gives to do so. The bottom line for me remains the same, in the Spirit we can keep the law.  It just sort of gives me a different perspective to arrive at the same conclusion.

I ask this because it struck me that the way Christians understand Paul's writings (salvation by works verses salvation by faith, and grace ruling out the law) would perhaps change if they considered G-d's grace and our justification as a means of keeping His Torah in the absence of a Temple rather than keeping Torah as a means to accomplish our own salvation.

I know Paul is very complicated to read and there is much more than this one passage I quoted.  I just wanted to see what other people think because in the Spirit I feel that because of Yeshua's atoning work I can keep the commandments.  I can keep them, because He atoned for my sin and imperfection and so reconciles me to G-d in the Spirit. This gives me the freedom of the blessing; to be with G-d and learn from Him how to do His will. It gives me the chance to learn G-d's will in His mercy through grace and justification instead of being consumed in His holiness and wrath.

The flash of a thought struck me that Paul may have at least sometimes been speaking of grace in light of the limitation imposed on us to keep Torah in the absence of a Temple. Like I said, it just seems to somehow redirect the debate in my mind.  It helps me further consider grace as a means to keep the law rather than as a means to do away with it. I just want to throw this out there for some help to think it through. How far do you think it would go with Christians who see grace as somehow in opposition to the law instead of a gift for us to be blessed to keep it.

[alon]

Nov 2, 2017 19:25:57 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Does remembering that Paul was speaking at a time when no Temple was standing and so technically the could not be strictly upheld change the way you consider passages such as the above?  

No one, not even Yeshua could strictly uphold , as not all of it applies to everyone. Most of it is specifically for the Aaronic priesthood, and since Yeshua as most of us are not of this line it would be a transgression to keep any of those instructions. Likewise when there is no Temple it is a transgression to make a sacrifice to HaShem. However when the Temple is rebuilt we will once again be required to make sacrifices:

Zechariah 14:20-21 (ESV) And on that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “Holy to the Lord.” And the pots in the house of the Lord shall be as the bowls before the altar. And every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holy to the Lord of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them and boil the meat of the sacrifice in them. And there shall no longer be a trader in the house of the Lord of hosts on that day.

Isaiah 56:7 (ESV) these I will bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer
for all peoples.”

Rav Sh'ul himself participated in animal sacrifices after his conversion:

Acts 24:17 (ESV) Now after several years I came to bring alms to my nation and to present offerings.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon says of the word translated "offerings" STRONGS NT 4376: προσφορά
προσφορά, προσφοράς, ἡ (προσφέρω), offering; i. e. 1. the act of offering, a bringing to (Plato, Aristotle, Polybius). 2. that which is offered, a gift, a present (Sophocles O. C. 1270; Theophrastus, char. 30 under the end). In the N. T. a sacrifice (A. V. offering), whether bloody or not: Acts 21:26; Acts 24:17; Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 10:5, 8, 14,(Sir. 14:11 Sir. 31:21 (Sir. 34:19); Sir. 32:1, 6 (Sir. 35:8); once for מִנְחָה, Psalm 39:7 (Ps. 40:7); περί ἁμαρτίας, offering for sin, expiatory sacrifice, Hebrews 10:18; with the genitive of the object, τοῦ σώματος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ Hebrews 10:10; τῶν ἐθνῶν, the sacrifice which I offer in turning the Gentiles to God, Romans 15:16.

Acts 18:18 (ESV) After this, Paul stayed many days longer and then took leave of the brothers and set sail for Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila. At Cenchreae he had cut his hair, for he was under a vow.

The “vow” refers to the Nazarite Vow (Num. 6:1ff). If an individual wanted to take the Nazarite Vow, he would voluntarily give up wine, grapes, raisins, haircuts, and going near dead bodies (Num. 6:3-6). It is not specified in scripture, but apparently he would shave his head when first taking the vow. After he grew out his hair, he was to bring a one year old lamb and one ram (Num. 6:14). He would also bring food, grain, and drinks to offer (Num. 6:15). Then the priest would offer his sin offering before the Lord (Num. 6:16). Afterwards, the man would shave his head and offer this on the fire (Num. 6:18). Since the Nazarine Vow required animal sacrifice, and since Rav Sh'ul took this vow after his conversion, we can conclude that he did participate in animal sacrifices after he met Yeshua and was at the time ha'Notsri, a member of the sect of the Nazarine.

Am I right to understand that the commandments related to Temple worship are broadly about being reconciled to G-d through forgiveness to fellowship with Him? I am just thinking that Paul may have been addressing how the grace of Yeshua is not only the source of salvation but overcomes our physical limitations to keep G-d's commandments that help us commune with Him.

I'd say that is vey insightful. If the Bible can be said to be a history of HaShem's interactions with men, then we'd also have to say that it is a history of grace, from Adam on. Otherwise Adam, Noach, and the Patriarchs themselves; Melech Dovid and Rav Sh'ul also would have been destroyed. But Aveinu always makes a way. And that way is always full of grace. This is whether the Temple is standing or not.

The problems Christians face with understanding grace is twofold: first they see it as a "New Testament" concept. "The Jews were 'under the Law,' but we got grace!" And second instead of seeing it as bridging the gap between our limitations and Elohim's expectations, they see it as license to do as they please:

Judges 17:6 (ESV) In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

They say Yeshua is their king now, yet instead of doing as He did and obeying they say He abolished that onerous "Law" so they can make their own laws. So once again, there is no king in Israel, and every man is his own god. Well, at least until the modern Messianic movement came along!

As always, some good observations! Keep us updated if you follow this track further, as I think you are onto something.

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

Yes, and what a nice way to subtly show me that I completely confused myself. The Temple was standing when Paul wrote this. Sorry, I got carried away in my thinking, and need to learn more on the history and context.

[francis]

The "I(ego,id,self,pride)" Must Die for The Life to Be!

And in as much as i can 'see',
That which IS of the "I(ego,id,self,pride)" in me,

So IT IS i yearn, and to Our FATHER cry,
For deliverance from all that IS of the "I".

The "I", born of "imag"ination and selfish desire,
As lust, greed, and pride, stoked a consuming fire!

A fire burning out of control, as "I" leads the way,
It's smoke concealing the fleshly mind that leads one astray.

Yet even in the smoke, searing heat, and blindness of 'sight',
TRUTH can pierce that blackness of darkness, revealing "The Light"!

And nothing can hide from "The Light", so "Light" reveals the "I(ego,id,self,pride)",

Allowing a soul to "see" clearly! And clearly the "I" must die!

Yet to live, yet die, seems an impossible task,
And so we need of "Our FATHER", the impossible to ask.

Help me to "deny(Die to "I"{ego,id,self,pride}!) myself" FATHER!

And as HE Helps, HE reveals evermore of "The Selfless One".......

The One who testified, "i can do nothing of my own self"! (John 5:19,30; 8:28-29; 7:16; 12:49-50; 14:10,23-24; 17:8,14)
Redacted- see below

The One Who leads His brethren(naturally male or 'fe'male) on "The Narrow Way" that IS "The Way(TO), The TRUTH(TO) of The Life! (Matthew 7:14, John 14:6)
Redacted- see below

The One Who IS The Messiah, "The Only Begotten Son of The ONE and ONLY TRUE LIVING ELOHIM('God' IS of pagan greek mythology!) and FATHER(CREATOR) of ALL"! (Matthew 16:16, John 3:16; 20:17)
Redacted- see below

The Messiah, "The Beginning of The Creation of Our FATHER and ELOHIM"! "The True Light that enlightens every man born into the world"! (Genesis 1:3, Revelations 3:14, John 1:9)
Redacted- see below


I had to redact the links because they contained theologies inconsistent with our Statement of Faith. They also contained multiple links to other articals which made it impossible to check them all. However the ones I did check were in violation of the rules. Also this looks like a blog. From the rules, with violations underlined:

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[alon]

francis,

Looking through some of the links to your blog, I found this:

"Thankfully in his latter years i believe Mahatma Gandhi sought and desired to follow The Messiah on "The Way to The TRUTH of The Life"! (John 14:6)

And he testified, "My life is my message".......

Life IS! For those who have seen how "poor and in need" of Our FATHER and GOD they truly are! (Psalms 70:5; 72:13, John 5:19,30; 8:8-29)

Mahatma Gandhi REALized such when he testified, "I have been a willing slave to this most exacting MASTER (WHOM i believe was Our FATHER and GOD) for more then half a century. HIS Voice has been increasingly audible as years have rolled by. HE has never forsaken me even in my darkest hour. HE has saved me often from myself and left me not a vestige of independence. The greater the surrender to HIM, the greater has been my Joy"." 

Are you saying Ghandi accepted Yeshua? I've never heard of this. Do you have proof? A statement by him perhaps?

As far as I know, while he adopted a philosophy of religious pluralism, he never renounced his Hindu faith.

Dan C 
  

[francis]

i would appreciate it if you would read the comments Gandhi made in his latter years.

Those comments and others are posted @ Redacted- see post above 

BTW, i have been changing 'GOD' to 'ELOHIM' when i updated or posted a new testimony, for it became quite evident that 'god' was of pagan greek mythology!

[alon]

Oct 15, 2020 13:38:34 GMT -8 francis said:

i would appreciate it if you would read the comments Gandhi made in his latter years.

Those comments and others are posted @ asimpleandspirituallife.blogspot.com/2015/07/earth-provides-enough-to-satisfy-every.html

BTW, i have been changing 'GOD' to 'ELOHIM' when i updated or posted a new testimony, for it became quite evident that 'god' was of pagan greek mythology!

I followed that link, and am more convinced than before Gandhi was not a follower of our God. Just because he says "GOD" and capitalizes it does not mean he is a believer. Had he not been so well educated and well traveled, I'd say perhaps the comparison to his teachings and those of Yeshua would hold some merit. But he must have encountered the truth at some point.

Even if that were true, our God does not subscribe to religious pluralism. He says his god has no religion- ours does. Ours created Judaism, and later the sect of the Notsarim (of which Paul was said to be a ringleader- Acts 24:5) and who were the first Messianic believers, and the ones we try to pattern ourselves after. So in this alone there is a major disconnect between Gandhiand his god(s), and Paul and our God.

Another problem is Gandhi's pacifism. While Yeshua did teach peace, He also told His disciples to buy swords (Luke 22:36). He took the time to scrounge the materials, fashion a scourge, and in an act of protracted violence drive the moneychangers, merchants, and livestock out a gate in the center of the wall (John 2:14-16). In the TNK (OT) God (and Yeshua is God) acted with decisive violence on behalf of His people more than once. So our God is not a pacifist.

There's more, but that is more than enough. I am going to have to say Gandhi did not worship the God of the Hebrews. He may have accepted our God under the banner of pluralism, but that is much different than following Him only, worshiping Him only, and even elevating Him above his Buddha, or:

Ardhanarishvara
Nataraja
Pashupati
Rudra
Dakshinamurthy
Ravananugraha
Vaidheeswara
Lingodbhava
Bhikshatana
Sri Manjunatha
Vaidhyanatha
Mahakaleshwara
Tryambak
Bholenath 
(list from the web)

Absent a declaration by him that he was going to worship the Hebrew God alone, I don't think we can say he was a believer in the One True God.

Dan C

 

[francis]

Who were the souls who had The Messiah crucified when in TRUTH Pilate was going to release Him?

[francis]

Apart from The TRUTH, What - IS - ?

[alon]

You tell me. Having trouble seeing the relevance there.

Dan C

[alon]

One of the links reads like an argument I've heard before, that Yeshua was created when light was created. Are you saying Yeshua is a created being?

"TRUTH IS! The One destined to become Immanuel The Messiah was "The FIRSTborn of ALL Creation", "The Beginning of The Creation of Our FATHER and ELOHIM"! (Colossians 1:15, Revelations 3:14)"

Colossians 1:15-18 (Young's Literal Translation) 
15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
18 And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] -- himself -- first,

Revelation 3:14 (Young's Literal Translation) `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;
    
There are a couple of things I do when confronted with scripture that goes against sound doctrine. One is I read it in context. The other is I go to a literal translation, or even my interlinear. I also have reference books I can look up words, terms, or other literary devices: 

chief (beginning)  G746 (Strong)  ἀρχή  archē  From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

So Revelation is not referring to Yeshua as being created first (or at all); rather that He was there at the void that was earth in the beginning, and by Him all things were created. In Colossians, read in context and in a literal translation it becomes more clear what s meant. Figuratively He was firstborn because through Him all things were created. This is also prophetic language as (again figuratively) we see Him manifest as a man and firstborn of the resurrection (Rev 1:5).

This allegory is said of both David and Yeshua in other scripture:

Psalm 89:27 (ESV) And I will make him the firstborn,
the highest of the kings of the earth.

Firstborn in biblical terms almost always refers to an exalted position, not necessarily a birth order. It's an allegorical reference. Interpreting it litterally is one of the ways the church (Tertulian, I believe) got to a doctrine of a Trinity.

Dan C