Giving- Again

[alon]

Rav S made some comments on Erev Shabbat that got me thinking. Actually, they sort of convicted me. He said to us all that some were probably giving to organizations that funded Jewish outreach or relief out of a misguided sense of loyalty. However we should be giving to Messianic organizations, because when the end is near and they come for “you,” no one else is going to be coming to your aid. We should be supporting our own synagogue first, then other verified true Messianic organizations. Rav Sh’ul did this for the Nots’rim in Yerushalayim. His letters bear this out (1 Cor 16:1–4; 2 Cor 8:1–9:15; Rom 15:14–32). The concept here is we take care of our own.

 I give all my tithes and some extra to my own synagogue, of course. But I’ve been giving to a Jewish relief organization as well. I understand that the Rabbi who runs it does not like Messianics, but I don’t give to him; rather to those his org helps. However I am becoming more aware of the many Messianics in the poorest places our synagogue helps. Some of them are affiliated with our umbrella organization, and some are not. These are people not only in abject poverty but under the constant threat of persecution, like in the jungles of India, or in Pakistan and other Muslim countries. Most in contemporary Judaism have hardened their hearts to the truth, while these people, starving for the truth have accepted it in Messianic Judaism despite the dangers and added hardships it places on them:

Psalm 37:16-17 (ESV) Better is the little that the righteous has
    than the abundance of many wicked. For the arms of the wicked shall be broken,
    but the Lord upholds the righteous.

Proverbs 17:16 (ESV) Why should a fool have money in his hand to buy wisdom
    when he has no sense?

I’ve recently been undergoing a small financial crises of sorts (though it seems wrong somehow to say that after speaking of these people). But it is forcing me to once again reevaluate my giving. And I am thinking one of the changes I’ll be making is that I will only be giving to Messianic relief (other than my tithes, of course). And I am fortunate to have access to relief efforts where 100% of my money goes to those I earmark it for in my own synagogue.

Malachi 3:10 (ESV) Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need.

1 Timothy 6:17-19 (ESV) As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

I’m not rich; but compared to the poverty many of my fellow Meshiachim live in I’m a Rockefeller. There are many who will continue the support for Jews in Israel, but far fewer even among our own ranks who will support these people. I can’t give much due to being on a restricted income and having medical conditions. But I think what I do give should go where it counts the most. So apart from small donations to a couple of veterans groups, I’m thinking that I will shift my giving to support fellow Messianic believers who are in dire need.

Dan C

[garrett]

Dan, do you have any suggestions for the person who is temporarily in a position to not "give?"

Namely, that person would be me. Circumstances from the past few years have put me and my wife into a situation where we literally live hand to mouth each week and each month, sometimes day-to-day. This did not used to be the case for us. I once had the privilege of giving quite a lot of money to various, legitimate recipients. But to do so now would just bring serious harm to us.

The only thing I've been able to do now is to give granola bars and energy bars to homeless people in my city. They stand at a lot of the intersections around town. When the light is red, and if he or she is close by, I can hand them some food from the car window. And my wife puts together small care packages that she hands out from her car as well. I know this is better than nothing.

We look forward to the time when she finishes school in December and is likely working as well, when we can allocate funds for causes outside of those I just mentioned.

We're not poor but I'd say we're a bit broke. Does anyone know of anything we're doing that is un-biblical at this point?

garrett

[jimmie]

I have difficulty giving as you describe. We are instructed to leave a portion of our fields for gleaning by the poor. If we give a homeless person a granola bar, that they did not have to work for, are we not reinforcing the idea that the homeless person does not have to work. Are we giving a meal against the instruction of he who does not work does not eat, 2 Thess. 3:10? Deut. 15 instructs us to open our hands wide unto the poor. But this giving is in the form of a loan. I.e. the poor person is obliged to pay you back until the year of release comes around. You may not be fully repaid but the important thing is the poor person has skin in the game.

[alon]

Sept 25, 2017 4:14:38 GMT -8 garrett said:

Dan, do you have any suggestions for the person who is temporarily in a position to not "give?" ...  Circumstances from the past few years have put me and my wife into a situation where we literally live hand to mouth each week and each month, sometimes day-to-day. This did not used to be the case for us. I once had the privilege of giving quite a lot of money to various, legitimate recipients. But to do so now would just bring serious harm to us.

The only thing I've been able to do now is to give granola bars and energy bars to homeless people in my city. ... And my wife puts together small care packages that she hands out from her car as well. I know this is better than nothing.

We look forward to the time when ... we can allocate funds for causes outside of those I just mentioned. ...

garrett

I've been there, so I can empathize with your position. And currently I am trying to pay off some medical bills on a fixed income. I'm not able to work, so I can't supplement that either. So my giving right now is essentially cut back to just tithes, which I round up to the nearest higher 50. I see so many things I want to contribute to and just can't. And I feel bad, even guilty about it, but I need to get those bills paid down, so I have to remain resolved and just say no.

But here's the thing about giving. It's between you and God first off, so when you say "I can't," you need to imagine standing before Him and saying that. Because one day we will. But the other thing, and I need to emphasize I cannot make halacha here, but the higher mitzvah is to take care of your family first. You don't take food from your table when you are all eating lean to begin with. And every once in a while you should be able to eat a really good meal without feeling guilty as well. Furthermore if you yourself become homeless how would you help other homeless people? Take care of your family first, pay your bills and buy the necessities (like food) then give as you can. And that includes tithes.

I grew up poor, and it teaches a lot of good lessons. We didn't waste anything, and we had to learn to make do. But my father was a Southern Baptist lay preacher. He paid tithes regardless; and a lot of those times he shouldn't have. We went to school without proper winter clothes and my mother never had a new dress; but he had two nice suits because that is what was expected back then. Now he always worked, sometimes two jobs plus a full time ministry. So we had food one way or another. But looking back I think he could have worked one less job and took better care of his family; and counted the time spent in a ministry that barely covered the cost of those suits and their cleaning as his giving. So my opinion here might be a bit skewed by my own experiences.

2 Corinthians 9:7 (ESV) Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

So I am not saying don't give. Just give what you can with a good heart. Tithing gets a bit more tricky though:

Deuteronomy 15:10 (ESV) You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him, because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake.

Tithing is for the poor an act of trust that YHWH-Jireh, God Will See/God Will provide (Genesis 22:14) will do as He says. He will provide. That said, if the money just isn't there then I still think you put food on the table before giving to anyone else:

1 Timothy 5:8 (ESV) But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

And this principle applies to all your family. Yeshua addressed this question specifically when He said:

Mark 7:9-13 (ESV) And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban”’ (that is, given to God)— then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

So bottom line, you as head of household must determine what you are able to give and where it should go. But it should be done for God when you do give. I'm not saying to cheat God. Just that you need to make the tough decision when to give and how much; and when to provide the basic necessities for your family and not give. Then maybe when you get where you are better able, give more generously knowing Elohim was generous with you when you were poor.

Again, just my advice.

Dan C


 

[alon]

Sept 25, 2017 14:05:47 GMT -8 jimmie said:

I have difficulty giving as you describe. We are instructed to leave a portion of our fields for gleaning by the poor. If we give a homeless person a granola bar, that they did not have to work for, are we not reinforcing the idea that the homeless person does not have to work. Are we giving a meal against the instruction of he who does not work does not eat, 2 Thess. 3:10? Deut. 15 instructs us to open our hands wide unto the poor. But this giving is in the form of a loan. I.e. the poor person is obliged to pay you back until the year of release comes around. You may not be fully repaid but the important thing is the poor person has skin in the game.

You make a good point. If at all possible I think we should require something of the person we are giving to. Many missions for the homeless require that they sit through a sermon before they are fed and given beds. But most of us don't have fields or even a place for the homeless to sleep, let alone the extra food to feed another mouth in cases like Garrets. So giving out this bare minimum of a granola bar or a plastic grocery bag with essentials doesn't seem to me to be encouraging degeneracy. Now, if we do have work they could do that is a different thing. And I agree with you that requiring they do something in return is the way to go; as long as we don't take advantage of them as just a source of forced cheap labor. But absolutely I think we should keep this principle in mind when we give directly to the poor.

Dan C

[garrett]

Sept 25, 2017 14:05:47 GMT -8 jimmie said:

I have difficulty giving as you describe. We are instructed to leave a portion of our fields for gleaning by the poor. If we give a homeless person a granola bar, that they did not have to work for, are we not reinforcing the idea that the homeless person does not have to work. Are we giving a meal against the instruction of he who does not work does not eat, 2 Thess. 3:10? Deut. 15 instructs us to open our hands wide unto the poor. But this giving is in the form of a loan. I.e. the poor person is obliged to pay you back until the year of release comes around. You may not be fully repaid but the important thing is the poor person has skin in the game.

Hi jimmie,

I think you might be taking the act of giving out of context with regard to the scriptures. I'm not entirely sure, but I think it's possible.

Deuteronomy is an enlargement of the specific laws given to the Hebrews who were to inherit the land on the east bank of the Jordan River. These were all Hebrew brothers and sisters, of multiple tribes in a common land...a chosen people for that place. And the specific instructions were for unique circumstantial matters in life (applying the law to life). Deuteronomy 15 addresses loans from a brother who is a creditor, followed by the L-rd's release, if the borrower doesn't or can't pay back the loan. And of a foreigner, you may require a claim. But still, the word "may" is the decision at hand.

Also, these commandments were given to those whom inherited a specific geographical location, a promised land...and a general community. This was a case of one Hebrew giving to another Hebrew, knowing full well that the money lent might not be paid back by the seventh year. I believe much of this has to do with location and those of the same faith.

II Thessalonians shows us where Paul addresses a handful of things but he also speaks of working for food. Again, the context of this epistle is wherein he addresses a congregation (s) of Messianic believers and what behavior was required of them. Their living situation was informed by Paul as he taught them and reminded them of how believers should live among each other. Just as the case with those in Deuteronomy, Paul admonishes the believers in Thessalonica to work for their food. He even mentioned that he made sure to work for his own food while among them.

In my circumstance, I have no idea if I am staring at another Jewish man or woman, let alone a believer in Yeshua. What I do see is a haggard, dirty, skinny, down-trodden person standing in some of the strangest locations trying to get by - just for that day. I don't know them or their story. Many are veterans. Scores of them have mental illness. There are also a lot with substance abuse problems - paired with mental illnesses.

So...I don't really find myself having time to parse through the scriptures about when and whom to give to. I know it when I see it. It's a simple reaction to a visual example. It's very clear that a person with no home or money isn't going to have a clean set of clothes and a resume stashed away for the next potential job interview. They don't even have a full stomach and they probably have limited skills at the moment. I am sober enough to be discriminating about whom I'll give food. I hope this direction comes from the Holy Spirit, coupled with some of my own street smarts.

But ultimately, I see another human. That could be me. It's someone made in G-d's image. I see them and my mind is directed to the person of Yeshua, I'm glad about that.

Hopefully this puts things into better context,

garrett

[jimmie]

Gerrett
Thank you for your comments. You may be right about me applying scripture out of its’ context. But I have always had a problem, with the concept, that being outside of Israel discounts a portion of scripture or somehow changes our responsibility to fulfill the law. For example, were the 2.5 tribes on the west bank exempt, from any portion of the Law, because of their geographical location, being out side of the Promised Land? I find no evidence of that being the case. When David was driven from the common wealth of Israel, he appears to have fulfilled the law, in that he didn’t return the Egyptian slave that he come upon, to his master. Naomi appears to have taught Ruth the ways of God, while in Moab. Daniel refused to eat unclean foods while in Babylon. To my mind, my location does not affect my obligation and/or desire to fulfill God’s law.
I, as you do, live outside of a community of believers. But our respective experience is vastly different. When I see the occasional person on the street, I see a professional panhandler. Someone who is willing to tell me his children are hungry, to get money from me. Then gets mad because I offer to take him to a restaurant, to feed his family, instead of giving him money. Or, the one who got mad because my daughter didn’t give him the receipt for the clothes she bought his children, at the local store. Thus making is more difficult to return the clothes for cash.
That being said, we each must fulfill the law, in our own experience. As alon might say follow the Hallica (spelling?) of our local experience.

[alon]

jimmie, I agree that we as Meshiachim who are often separated from other like minded believers must walk out our faith based largely on our own interpretation of scripture and our own experiences. However this is a misuse of the term "halacha."

Halacha is the way we walk out our faith based on scripture, tradition and Rabbinic rulings. It is how we maintain a relationship with Abishter. And part of that relationship is tzedika, giving. But as you point out it should be responsible giving. And since many of us don't have any yardstick by which to measure such actions, these kinds of discussions are how we grow, everyone being at his own place in the journey.

I, as indicated in the OP am at a point whee I am reorganizing my giving based on what someone else said. Granted, he's my Rabbi; but he made me think instead of just saying "this is how you WILL give!" So does your principle about requiring something of the recipient. I'll be giving to people who, though they have little and live often day to day go out and operate orphanages and schools. They will soon put up their sukkot knowing those will draw the attention of their Muslim neighbors. And in many instances they put their lives and families on the line by just believing as they do.

Dan C

[garrett]

Sept 28, 2017 7:27:44 GMT -8 jimmie said:

Gerrett
Thank you for your comments. You may be right about me applying scripture out of its’ context. But I have always had a problem, with the concept, that being outside of Israel discounts a portion of scripture or somehow changes our responsibility to fulfill the law. For example, were the 2.5 tribes on the west bank exempt, from any portion of the Law, because of their geographical location, being out side of the Promised Land? I find no evidence of that being the case. When David was driven from the common wealth of Israel, he appears to have fulfilled the law, in that he didn’t return the Egyptian slave that he come upon, to his master. Naomi appears to have taught Ruth the ways of God, while in Moab. Daniel refused to eat unclean foods while in Babylon. To my mind, my location does not affect my obligation and/or desire to fulfill God’s law.
I, as you do, live outside of a community of believers. But our respective experience is vastly different. When I see the occasional person on the street, I see a professional panhandler. Someone who is willing to tell me his children are hungry, to get money from me. Then gets mad because I offer to take him to a restaurant, to feed his family, instead of giving him money. Or, the one who got mad because my daughter didn’t give him the receipt for the clothes she bought his children, at the local store. Thus making is more difficult to return the clothes for cash.
That being said, we each must fulfill the law, in our own experience. As alon might say follow the Hallica (spelling?) of our local experience.

Hello again jimmie,

I think you just made my point again, plus you gave good examples of when not to "give."

The examples of the law applying to life circumstances (in Deuteronomy and Messianic believers) applied to those who lived within the context of other believers. For example: Me giving you money or goods or alon loaning me some money because I was poor, because the L-rd commands us to do so among each other. King David, Daniel and Naomi were followers of G-d and they did what was right regardless of their location. And so the same applies to us.

I mentioned three things about giving from my perspective: the desire to give, the Holy Spirit and discernment (street smarts). Just like you, I've noticed times where I did not give for reasons I couldn't quite explain, but something just didn't "seem right." My giving is almost entirely of food or water. That's pretty much it. No one has ever rejected it. Each person has thanked me. It's not hard to feel duped by some swindlers but please don't let that blind you to the fact that there are people in need. There are some pretty clever ways to help people who need help - people who won't reject your generosity.

This is an area where I feel accountable. I'd rather be on the right side of someone else doing something wrong. And throughout the bible G-d has a lot to say about the consequences of of not helping a fellow believer or a stranger.

garrett

[Questor]

Discussing how we give and why we give is particularly useful as we get into more difficult times.

I too am coming into a season in which money will be scarce, but I cannot not give my tithe...it makes me feel wrong. And where I give is to Messianic Rabbi's in Israel that are trying to reach the lost against a great deal of mounting persecution, and even death threats from the extreme Orthodox Rabbinical Jews.  Alms go locally to a Food Box, for those that really need the extra help...so far as anyone can tell. It is just basic food items, milk, bread, cheese, cereals, fruit, vegetables, and even that is getting pretty thin on the ground, but no one is starving in our small valley, so far as we an tell, and there are several ministries that work hard on that here.

I am revising again how I spend my money, and how I spend my time...for indeed, they seem to go together. If I can raise my own salad greens and other veggies, I can use that money for some better thing, but it always seems to be repairs and maintenance to keep me going.

I am 62, disabled, and getting even more run down, and so is my home, my car, and those things I need to keep going in this portion of the world I live in. It's nothing plush, and there is no need to provide for blood family, for essentially I have none, so one would think I could do with less than others...but without family to assist with skilled or even unskilled help, and not having a Messianic Community to draw help from, I seem to be out expense more and more. The only positive in this is hiring those that need work to do what I cannot physically do...but each year it gets harder.

Yes, I live in relative comfort and ease compared to the very poor of the world in other places, but at one and the same time, I have to live here, and that costs more than I would like. The van is 19 years old, and although little used, needs upkeep and repair, and it is my only access to the stores 40 minutes away, and to my doctors...so I limit my trips to only one a week maximum...and still the cost is there. The Medication I need and the supplements that keep me going are expensive, and there is no doing without, unless I choose to sit frozen in a chair all day, and slowly disintegrate.

It is more complicated to figure out how to live, and all that I can say is that when I had more money, I gave freely to those who needed it...sometimes unwisely, but I was not attached to money. And I at least know that what I gave then, and what I give now, however much or little will have some fruit attached to it, and so I have stopped berating myself for not being young, healthy, and working, and thus able to support others more generously.

I think of what to use less of, to do more cheaply, and there seems no way to do that if I am to take care of the things that Abba has gifted me with, and has told me to take care of, and in my inabilities, I have simply decided to be a peace with what I can do, and pray that Abba will prosper it, multiply it, and use for the good of others.