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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 29, 2017 10:43:37 GMT -8
Sometimes I struggle to reconcile the wrath of G-d we see throughout the old Testament and revelations with the life Messiah calls us to. This seems to be a common difficulty for people, and there seems to be a lot of confusion about how we fit those two together.
I was reading in Isaiah 13 today
(3) I have commanded my sanctified ones for My anger - those who rejoice in My exaltation."
(9) "I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible, I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, a man more than the golden wedge of Ophir."
These types of verses, G-d's anger and wrath, in combination with remembering call on our life to forgive 70 times 7 times (Matthew 18;22), to turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39), and similar verses gave me pause. We often hear people use these types of verses to excuse sin, which we know is not okay, nevertheless it is difficult for me to reconcile at times. Eventually it simply caused me to wonder how bad is G-d going to let it get? If Yeshua's commandments define for us the heart and will of our G-d; that all repent, be forgiven, and saved, then in proportion we can look at how bad is it going to have to get for Him to act as we see He promises He will in Isaiah 13. This thought lead me to remember how bad He let it get for Yeshua, and then I was able to reconcile the confusion.
I remembered Yeshua and the cross, and I realized how bad He will let it get. If that is how ugly sin is, if that is what He will allow to happen to His only begotten son for the sake of overcoming our ugly sin, then how much more can a world that refuses the grace of Yeshua expect? G-d's character is attacked by the world unceasingly, and one of the biggest attacks is for the world to accuse Him of injustice or being unloving. That's why I spent time thinking on this, because it was also hard for me to reconcile what I was reading with what Yeshua commands us.
The L-rd tells us to take up our cross and follow Him (Mathew 16:24), His yoke is easy and His burden is light. (Matthew 11:30). The following thought process just helped me come to terms with reconciling the wrath of G-d with the mercy of G-d. We all as sinners, have to bear a cross for the sin we have brought into the world. When we look at Yeshua and remember the cross we can see that G-d will let it get that bad, and we shouldn't be surprised at the wrath He is promising the world if we remember what He allowed Yeshua to go through. We who love G-d bear our cross with the only One Who can overcome it. The world that refuses Him will bear their own cross, and they won't overcome it.
Connecting dots just helps me have more understanding and therefore more faith in the truths I kind of know so I share them here for people who are possibly like me.
We know G-d is perfectly just. When the world, specifically, fellow believers challenges us to explain the whole truth of G-d for the sake of some misguided idea that grace that forgives sin is the same thing as grace that excuses it, we need only to point to the cross to remind them that Yes He does judge sin and the cross is the context for how bad He can and let it get. He will let it get that bad for the sake of anyone who will turn to Him, and that is the love we as Yeshua's are called to. We will go through it, with Him, but for the sake of the world. That's our cross, and what a blessing to get to share in His work if we truly think about it. We are blessed to be able to show G-d we love Him in this life.
The cross is how bad it's going to get. That's what we need to be prepare for, which doesn't seem like an easy yoke or a light burden, so how can Yeshua make that promise? It must be because that is the power of the grace of G-d and the love He poured out on us through the cross. And it must be because that is how much He loves the world, to allow those who love Him to go through it. We can bear it, and He can call it light and easy because He is with us. So love for us is suffering for the sake of G-d's perfect plan and wisdom, and helping Him further His plan by truly loving others in spreading His truth. It means praying and loving even if G-d lets the world get that bad knowing the ugliness of sin and the love of G-d to overcome it.
Whether you cling to the cross or deny it, His fundamental message is judgment for the sake of redemption. Sorry, but that's the truth and believers are not acting in love to avoid it so the world around them feels better. No one can bear the cross of sin on their own. G-d knows this and believers above all others should know this. That's why He sent Yeshua, and that is why He will let it get that bad before we are taken out of this world. He loves the world enough to let us suffer for it's sake, giving people all the chance He can to turn to Him because it is only the believers in this world who can suffer through it successful through the power of Yeshua. That's our calling and to ignore the part about sin and judgment is completely contrary to our mission and the love we are hear to show.
I know this is really basic knowledge for believers, but I shared it anyway because I needed to further contemplate to come to deeper terms with it myself. Seeing the wrath G-d will allow the world to go through in the context of the cross helped me connect the dots and find some resolution. There is love in G-d's wrath, that is perfectly illustrated in the cross. If G-d allowed Yeshua to suffer for sin to that extent, the world can expect Him to do the same for those who refuse Him. That is justice. G-d is perfectly just in the wrath He will pour out on the world. We can point to the cross as an equal measure. It is His mercy and grace that are underserved. That is the heart of a believer, to know we don't deserve His forgiveness and therefore in love spread it. That's the context I am going to start putting the love of G-d and the wrath He will pour out on the world in; the cross.
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Post by Questor on Jun 10, 2018 21:02:29 GMT -8
Sometimes I struggle to reconcile the wrath of G-d we see throughout the old Testament and revelations with the life Messiah calls us to. This seems to be a common difficulty for people, and there seems to be a lot of confusion about how we fit those two together. I was reading in Isaiah 13 today (3) I have commanded my sanctified ones for My anger - those who rejoice in My exaltation." (9) "I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible, I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, a man more than the golden wedge of Ophir."
We are in Tribulation now...the pressure, always ever so slightly and increasingly pressing in...visibly...a bit more here and there nowadays in all places on earth...not just the places that have been used to it since Yeshua's death in the Middle East. The pressure to conform to the world is already ongoing, to be as other people are, and cause no problems or family fights. It is hard to accept the losses that come with the often reluctant resolve on our part to take the higher road, and even though we lose thereby.
I recently outlined my plans to friends for an eventually expected order to show up with my bank card and my new Real ID that is required by 10/20/20 (just in time to refuse anyone the right to vote who doesn't have one...even absentee voters) and to have some kind of tract, or clever handout to be walking the lines with, trying to persuade people not to sign on for what will seem like an easy ride, but leads to the Lake of Fire. After all, there are horrible woes to warn people of that strike those that take the Mark, because we actually have to accept voluntarily if it is to count on the cosmic scale. Not that I fancy starving to death, and I am too old and crippled to run and hide, so I might as well fight in a non-violent way...or if the lines are disorderly, a well-armed non-violent way. Or possible sheer self defense at my home, though the idea troubles me. I don't want to meekly give in to the Brown Shirts that will be coming for me if I simply do not show up as ordered as happened to the Jews all over Europe, and I am not naturally a meek person.
The friends I told my plans to have dis-associated. I think my having thought that far ahead bothered them, even though they are panting for the next proof that the 'Rapture' will be soon. They said..."Death by Cop?" horrified by the idea of blatant resistance.
I said there were harder ways than to provoke people to do their job swiftly...particularly at the beginning when no one really wants to have all this unpleasantness...particularly not in California, where I daresay your blazing rainbow Gay Pride pin and a Mason's handshake will get you through quite a lot. I don't think I could manage either without good reason, but I plan to trust Abba for that, and not myself. We are told to let the Ruach speak through us...I just plan to be ready emotionally for what Peter had to face that first day when the Ruach fell so marvellously.
The Great Tribulation does not start until the AntiChrist declares himself G-d, and begins upping the ante on anyone who will not bow to him and be worldly and comfortable, and people everywhere will die...some in a more orderly, clinical manner, and some in barbaric ferocity that belongs back with Genghis Khan, or the real Dracula, who impaled his enemies for fun.
ISIS is a good example, or the M13 gangs that are sneaking around our borders in America - far too close to me for my comfort, or the gang's terrorizing quiet European streets that haven't had rape gangs chasing them in hundreds of years...even though it has happened in the distant past. There will be no ugliness that will not be thrown at us as a group, but personally, G-d will ensure that each of us that is hanging onto him, will be enabled to make it through whatever is going to happen before all the stars fall from the sky to become the blazing cloud of witnesses that Yeshua arrives in concert with.
He will enable us because he has guaranteed us that he is both the author and finisher of our faith. We keep the faith, and he enables us. The real horror of G-d's wrath is quick and very messy...perhaps as little as the 10 days of awe leading to Yom Kippur. And it is Yeshua and his friendly cohorts among the Watchers, with Michael, no doubt at his left hand, in the place of honour, to guard his shield arm...even though he needs it not. I can imagine the ones we call Angels rather delighting in taking care of things, after having to watch and protect against their foes for so many eons. And Yeshua will not be in a kindly mood, for these will be those who not only killed his people but have taken sides with the enemy.
The Wrath of G-d is the one part we do not partake in, if we are faithful, and have kept on struggling forward through the ever more difficult times, for when Yeshua descends, alive or dead we are gathered to meet him, and to partake, probably from the rear guard, in the terrible killing that will happen, that will leave so very few people left to come into the Kingdom as mortals in addition to the Remnant G-d protects. And though there will be some from the Nations who do not die during the time of wrath, there will be so much to clean up and repair at the end of it, comparatively, that the population of living men will be very rare indeed.
I often wonder how many people realise that ruling and reigning with Yeshua is dirty work that takes 7 months to clean up after the Wrath, and that even as things normalize, leave us, the Tsaddikim, in the position of local judges, the police, the teachers, the dog catcher, and the DMV. Still, I look forward to it in the way any good quarterback or soldier would...I visualize the circumstances and plan what to do, and how to do it. It might not help in the reality, but it is the best way to face such a dangerous future.
Based on the short instructional dreams I get from time to time that show what is coming soon to a town near you, nothing I could visualize will be too far off. Even though my dreams are not prophetic, but instructional, the short chats with the Ruach as I awake simply are making sure that the message I got was fully understood, and that I should have no illusions. Rather, the Ruach is simply informing me what people are going to be doing to one another...nice people...people who you might normally lend a hand to if they had a flat tire, or needed some cash...but they are people who do not know Yeshua, and have no desire to. It is going to be beyond nightmares and bad horror films, as whatever is in the Mark somehow changes the people that take it into beings we do not want to know. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 11, 2018 7:30:12 GMT -8
I know that we won't suffer the wrath of G-d. Thanks for helping me clarify. I had in mind people who will suffer the wrath of G-d, but will call into question His character as a means to blame and avoid any responsibility on their own part and drag everyone with them. I wanted to encourage pointing them to the cross as a just measure for what they'll endure and to give a more complete context of the love of G-d.
G-d loves the world and it is even in love that He will destroy it. That's for the sake of the elect who the world has previously and will again try to kill off. It's just me trying to come to terms with the confusion and thought processes of hypocritical evil that leaves no alternative.
The devil uses G-d's word, goodness and strategically selected aspects of His character to guilt and confuse us from being as firm in our faith and authority as we need to be. I'm struggling with this; feeling authoritative because of misplaced mercy and guilt about things that are beyond my control.
I can't say anymore than yes or no to what G-d says, and trust His nature and know He's G-d and is the only One who can get us through this. In other words, I'm not G-d but I know His goodness and wisdom. I can't understand His way, but I can trust it. And I choose to trust Him because of the mess they so perfectly illustrate I would otherwise be in if left up to them.
They can say no, but I say yes. It can't stop there, though because they don't want me to have a choice to say yes. The truth is that they are on their way to damnation as it stands. that's where they'll stay unless they choose to give their lives and will to Yeshua, and I believe somewhere deep in their soul they often know it. That's because they fight it. If they really don't believe it then why don't they just leave me my own choice and move on. Meanwhile their own defense is all about their freedom and their rights to be and to choose. I could go on and on. That's where you end up trying to reason this out with their avoidant logic; in circles of blame but no personal responsibility.
That's the kind of mentality this world will end in, and so that is why there's love and life in the world's destruction. G-d won't let us spin on and on just to be miserable in life defined by death to avoid the truth, praise G-d who knows how to save! I struggle sometimes with drawing lines with this kind of confusion and evil because I'm not in a situation where I can just walk away. I think that's ok because before it's over I think that's how it will be for all of us.
I will have to reread your post a few times Questor to take it all in. It sounds like a lot happening spiritually in your life. It worries me a bit because I have had bad experiences with evil, especially in falling asleep and waking. I worry a lot now about where things are coming from. I'm not for sure what is happening to you, but regardless, that's a lot to live with. I'll keep you in my prayers because you are dealing with a lot.
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Post by alon on Jun 11, 2018 8:55:56 GMT -8
I often wonder how many people realise that ruling and reigning with Yeshua is dirty work that takes 7 months to clean up after the Wrath, and that even as things normalize, leave us, the Tsaddikim, in the position of local judges, the police, the teachers, the dog catcher, and the DMV. Still, I look forward to it in the way any good quarterback or soldier would...I visualize the circumstances and plan what to do, and how to do it. It might not help in the reality, but it is the best way to face such a dangerous future.
Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Jun 11, 2018 11:57:33 GMT -8
I often wonder how many people realise that ruling and reigning with Yeshua is dirty work that takes 7 months to clean up after the Wrath, and that even as things normalize, leave us, the Tsaddikim, in the position of local judges, the police, the teachers, the dog catcher, and the DMV. Still, I look forward to it in the way any good quarterback or soldier would...I visualize the circumstances and plan what to do, and how to do it. It might not help in the reality, but it is the best way to face such a dangerous future. Questor, could you please elaborate on this? Dan C
I presume that those of the Israeli Remnant will require only minor corrections in how to live under Yeshua, and are stated to spend 7 months clearing the dead from Israel, not to mention the bio-hazards, and so forth. If they were just burying bones, I am sure they could handle it, but there is going to be some kind of nuclear activity at Armageddon, even if Yeshua is using it to execute those who fight against him, but the land will be devastated...everywhere. And whatever fuel is left scattered here and yonder, it must be really good stuff to last 7 years.
And Yeshua himself said that those that gave so much as a cup of water to one of his brethren would by no means lose their reward, which I interpret as entering into the kingdom as stated...not as incorrupt Tsaddikim, but just a few mortal people and their children who somehow escape the Wrath of G-d and the Beast as well. The Nations are going to exist, but they will not be beginning in large numbers...except in comparison to the Israeli Remnant. So we have mortal people, and the Incorrupt...the Tzaddikim, Yeshua's Righteous ones, who will be his hands and feet, repairing the world, and teaching the small group of people of Yeshua's desires in how to live, and enforcing those rules and regs, almost as if we were repeating the 40 years in the Wilderness.
The mortals, whether Israelite or of the Nations, will repopulate the earth, and give a large harvest of new children to YHVH, but in the beginning, there will be nothing much to reign over...but an awful lot to rebuild. And although the laws will be the same for all, it will not be an easy, or welcome transition to being subjects of King Yeshua. We will be resented as much as turned to for help by the mortal inhabitants and be the manpower to rebuild and nourish the planet to a clean, livable state, that is well run under Yeshua's Rod of Iron.
So no civilians will know how to do this...and we do not know how to do all of this, but I am sure can be given sufficient direction of what is needed, and where. They cannot teach themselves the whole of the real world history...as gathered from all the knowledge of the world, nor the three R's. How many teachers will survive to walk into the Kingdom, and would they teach what will make a uniform background of information?
Who else but those newly incorrupt beings that we will be will restore the water, the waste disposal, and perhaps electricity and natural gas to homes that have yet to be rebuilt? They cannot govern or police themselves...we would be back to tribal gangs in a month. And then there are all the things that are provided now...government officials who keep track of production, of planting and harvests, and there are also all of us Believers who are changed to be with Yeshua, wherever he is. He's on the planet, so we will be too...Myriads of us of us. And there will be banks and businesses, and we will start them because there will be a lot of us that are of one mind on how to behave under Yeshua's rule. We will be incorrupt and righteous, thus I term us a being the Tsaddikim for lack of a better term.
I do not expect to sit as Yeshua's feet with all the others all the time, because the lecture hall would have to be immense, and thus I expect teaching in rotations as the Priests needed to do when their population increased to be more than necessary to run the Temple. I do expect to be useful in the things I do well, that can be used in renewing the planet, and establishing a just and orderly reign under Yeshua.
But it will be messy at first, and later I expect to get my hands dirty growing things...because I do that well. I would like to take time to learn to play classical piano, but will we need sleep? Perhaps someone will teach me, because we also get to have a life...with friends and former family members, to sit under our grapevine and enjoy the fruits of our labours, whether teaching or farming or writing, working at the bank, or the marketplace. Technology will be available in abundance, and no doubt with zero energy loss, so the kind of marketplace we would have would be for practical things, or books, or crafts. Think 1880's with current technology, and no lack of goodwill or breach of the law.
So, in the end, ruling and reigning with Yeshua is a very practical matter, and the laws taught and enforced to enable a smooth governance of the people will be by us...in every tiny way, from nursery school to University, and as the mortal population grows, they will stop being grateful that there are a large number of Incorrupt energetic people to run and rebuild their world for them, and who will come to resent us extremely for not letting them decide how to run their lives their way, when the planet is Yeshua's.
At some point, we turn over local government to the people...when there are enough mortals who are trained to take over, when they know the laws, because it states that Yeshua will need to withhold rain as a means of keeping the world in line...using weather as a whip and a weapon and a means of punishment. The Adversary when released will have a lot of people to manipulate, but rebellion will be the dividing line between who loves G-d and who doesn't.
You need not agree, and I am sure I have a lot of details wrong, but if you ponder the matter, how else does a government get run, except by teachers, cops, librarians, the County offices for permits and inspections, and whatever version of the DMV there will be? |
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Post by Questor on Jun 11, 2018 12:55:42 GMT -8
They can say no, but I say yes. It can't stop there, though because they don't want me to have a choice to say yes. The truth is that they are on their way to damnation as it stands. that's where they'll stay unless they choose to give their lives and will to Yeshua, and I believe somewhere deep in their soul they often know it. That's because they fight it. If they really don't believe it then why don't they just leave me my own choice and move on. Meanwhile their own defense is all about their freedom and their rights to be and to choose. I could go on and on. That's where you end up trying to reason this out with their avoidant logic; in circles of blame but no personal responsibility. I will have to reread your post a few times Questor to take it all in. It sounds like a lot happening spiritually in your life. It worries me a bit because I have had bad experiences with evil, especially in falling asleep and waking. I worry a lot now about where things are coming from. I'm not for sure what is happening to you, but regardless, that's a lot to live with. I'll keep you in my prayers because you are dealing with a lot. Thank you for your concern, and I always welcome prayers of protection. I pray often enough for a renewal of the hedge of protection that enables me to heal and be calm in all this madness of the world is proceeding towards.
I have been receiving the odd Vision or dream since I was 15, but they are rare enough, scattered over much time, and very easy to discern as being only instructional, or in lieu of being given orders to do something specific for G-d. The most recent dreams are widely spaced, extremely short, just before waking. They are a complete short scene...just like in a movie, and I am conscious of the Ruach, and him pretty much grilling me on did I get the point...which isn't anything much about me, or anyone I know, but scenarios that will play out in people's lives I will never know. I am allowed to see what is happening somewhere or could happen, but there is no prescience in it that is useful to warn others, for instance, and it is always to teach me something I can find support for in Scripture.
Waking communications are rather more frequent, and they generally have no visual counterpart but are answers to questions I have posed to G-d, and mostly occur upon fasting and waiting for Abba to tell me something I have missed, or what he wants changed in something I am doing. The interesting part is when I enter a fast accidentally, being involved with something else and not sensing the passage of time, and some 20 hours into it realise, "Uh oh, I am fasting again!"...and I ask Abba what he needs me to know or do. And I get the answers, and they are what anyone would want...how to straighten out a mess I didn't even know I was in.
And since it is all biblically relevant, and wholesome in the extreme, I don't end up troubled by it. I just seem to be one of those that have a very interactive level of communication with G-d. I have a different kind of antenna, I think, because I have been so ill all of my life, and so deficient in nutrients that my nervous system does not build myelin around my nerves to protect me from the level of information that to me, seems to be everywhere. But it is not threatening to me or others spiritually as there is nothing in the communications except orders to do what is already allowable or expected, or to give me information that may be useful, and are directly related to my continuous prayers for knowledge and understanding.
Whatever the means of contact, they are not a means of getting or giving power to anyone. They simply seem to be Abba responding in some way to my need for direction, and my availability and openness to hearing from him. Not being afraid helps a lot, and my limited direct exposure with the dark side when I was about 20 or 21 gave me the knowledge that I think the Ruach wanted me to get from my baptism on...a recognition of a sensation of ability fed by fury, and able in some way to connect with whatever demon was hanging around. The experience was short and unpleasant and helped me turn away from all things similar to it.
It was very much as if I was baptised; received the Ruach; was given a clear vision of what the people baptising me were like; which scared me away from that church...or any other; led me into divination for a time; then got me acquainted just the one time with direct power from the dark side...the kind you can feel, and then was carefully shepherded away from such things by the Ruach, and my extreme dislike of what had happened.
The Adversary is always very upfront with his attacks these days...when I am awake. He knows I think his dream creations are badly done...he should stick to music. And as soon as I realize the trend of the chat, so to speak, out he gets cast, with every other demon I can think of to cast out. But mostly, my continuous prayers for protection from Abba keep me safe, but I value anyone else who will add theirs in to keep the hedge of protection around me thick and strong.
I know people do not like to hear of what happens to some of us from time to time, and fear the Adversary, and are right to do so, but having the knowledge and experience, I simply hope to inform others that not everything they hear is of G-d, but that with G-d's help, they can learn to know the difference. Oh, for a school of Prophets as they had in Temple times...I am sure it helped people a great deal not to walk in fear.
But there is also a great advantage in having been protected by the Ruach haKodesh through my exploration of things I did not know were dangerous in my youth. It makes it possible for me to recognize and turn away from the dark, and the deceptions that lead there. That ability may be what I was supposed to learn. If so, I welcome it as a gift of discernment, however oddly gained.
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Post by alon on Jun 11, 2018 16:00:00 GMT -8
Questor, by elaborate I meant giving your scriptural references as well as the explanation ...
Dan C
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- there are 70 faces to 
