hawkflint
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The inexorable love of God is revealed by the grace of God, which comes through faith in the Word of
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Post by hawkflint on Mar 17, 2017 19:55:04 GMT -8
Shalom brethren. I made a post about Romans 6-8:15 a month or two ago, and I found fault with it. I didn't know immediately that I had erred, but either the ministry I had been listening to got their theology wrong, or I misinterpreted what I was watching. I didn't remove the blog posts on the website I put up because I had corrected them as soon as possible, and would soon be correcting the actual posts on this forum.
It was actually, I admit to my , laziness that prevented me from correcting myself sooner. I've repented of that though and other sins that had dominion over me at the time I posted it, and now am by the Spirit putting to death pride. That was my problem: pride. I thought I had all the answers. I was wrong.
I wanted the glory of figuring things out, but that is God's not mine. And God be glorified, He revealed by His Spirit the answers I sought. So now I give an edited version of my post on Romans 6-8:15. I know I sound rather stupid above, but that is the truth and I can't hide it. I apologize for the confusion I caused or any other problems I caused.
Cf. Is an abbreviation for "compare"
Romans 6:1-14 6 1-2 “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? May it never be! We who died to Sin, how could we live in it any longer?” Grace increasing with sin increasing is not a licence to sin more to make grace increase. We have “died to Sin”, which I describe as meaning that Sin looks at us and sees dead people–if we have died to it. It instructs us, but it can’t make dead people do what it wants.3-5 “Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Yeshua were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism to death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection.” Baptism into Christ’s death is a participation in His death. Thus, we share the same burial. Christ died to Sin (Rom. 6:10) and so, if we participate in His death, we die to Sin as well. But Christ was resurected to a new life–a life of serving God (Rom. 6:10). Likewise we have been resurected and now “walk in the newness of life”, which is a life of serving and obeying God. This “newness of life” is “putting on the new man”; the “renewing of our minds” that changes our ways to God’s ways (cf. Eph. 4:22-24).6-7 “knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.” If Christ was crucified, and death through baptism is a participation in His death, then we share the crucifixion; Christ was crucified, and so are we. Christ died to Sin, and so do we. When to Sin we “die” our old sinful lifestyle is then “crucified”, in order that “we would no longer be in bondage to Sin”. We who “die” to Sin are “freed from Sin”. This means that Sin no longer has dominion over us. The only way that we can receive grace is through faith, for God grants grace through faith. That faith proceeds and includes works of the .8-11 “But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him; knowing that Christ, being raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no more has dominion over him! For the death that he died, he died to sin one time; but the life that he lives, he lives to God. Thus consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Yeshua our Lord.” If we change from sinful ways to God’s ways (His ), then we are free from Sin and thus free from Death (because sin leads to death). It is then that we are “dead to sin”–our lives being changed from sinful lives to godly lives– and we are “alive to God in Christ Yeshua our Lord”. This is our old mans’ crucifixion. We receive grace after we are “crucified”, and if we have grace then we are free from Sin and thus Death–for our marriage to Sin has then been shattered. There are two things we can be under: Sin, or grace. If we are under grace, we are free from Sin. If we are not under grace, we are under Sin and as a result we are going to die spiritually. After our crucifixion, we arise to a new life–a life of serving God.
Paul says that Christ died to Sin, then was freed from death. So those who take part in Christ’s death must die first, with Christ, and then they are free from Sin. The penalty of following Sin, or being a slave to it (we offer ourselves as an obedient slave to Sin when we are without God, and the result is a slavery to Sin), is death; but we died to Sin with Christ. Now that we participated in Christ’s death, we participate in His resurrection-a new life of serving God (Rom. 6:10).12-14 “Therefore don’t let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Also, do not present your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God, as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin will not have dominion over you. For you are not under law, but under grace.” Because of this (Rom. 6:6-11), we need to avoid letting “Sin reign in our mortal bodies”, so that we will not “obey it in its lusts”; but instead we need to offer our bodies to God for righteousness, being “alive from our death”. Being alive from the dead, in a new life of serving God, sin is not our master–it has no dominion over us. Instead of being under Sin, we are under grace (which includes but is not limited to the undeserved forgiveness of sins). It is not that we are free from the , but free from Sin. Sin is no longer our master. The is not even in question here. We are no longer under the law of Sin, but grace; we are no longer enslaved to Sin, but enslaved to God.
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hawkflint
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The inexorable love of God is revealed by the grace of God, which comes through faith in the Word of
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Post by hawkflint on Mar 17, 2017 20:47:09 GMT -8
15-16 “What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? May it never be! Don’t you know that when you present yourselves as servants and obey someone, you are the servants of whomever you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?” However, because we are not ruled by Sin, shall we sin? We are under grace yes? No. If we offer ourselves as obedient slaves to Sin we are it’s slave and will die (cf. John 8:34 and Deut. 27:26); if we offer ourselves as slaves to God then we are slaves to obedience and will live. Sin leads to death.19-23 “I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh, for as you presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification. For when you were servants of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now, being made free from sin, and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification, and the result of eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Yeshua our Lord.” When we lived a sinful lifestyle, we were free from righteousness; but because of the sin we committed we were dead. But after we are made free from Sin we are slaves of God (there are only two masters: Sin or God), we will live. Sin pays us death for our obedience to it; God grants life through faith in His Word.7 1-6 “Or don’t you know, brothers (for I speak to men who know the law (of Sin)) that the law (of Sin) has dominion over a man for as long as he lives? For the woman that has a husband is bound by law to the husband while he lives, but if the husband dies, she is discharged from the law of the husband. So then if, while the husband lives, she is joined to another man, she would be called an adulteress. But if the husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she is joined to another man. Therefore, my brothers, you also were made dead to the law (of Sin) through the body of Christ, that you would be joined to another, to him who was raised from the dead, that we might produce fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the , worked in our members to bring out fruit to death. But now we have been discharged from the instruction (law of Sin and Death), having died to that in which we were held (Sin); so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.” In verse one he is saying that only those who are aware of the law of Sin can understand Paul’s teachings on it.
The law of Sin only has dominion over us if we live in it. Just as a law of marriage is only binding as long as both the husband and the wife are alive, so is our marriage to Sin. If our Sin dies, we are no longer “married” (slaves) to Sin, but free to marry another–Christ, the Word of God (cf. John 1:14). We died to Sin through Christ and now are “married” to Him, which is the same as being married to the Word of God; because we are “married” to the Word of God, we can produce fruit to God. If we aren’t producing fruit for God, we are doing the opposite–producing fruit for death. That happens when we are “in the flesh” (the sinful nature of man); the shows what sin is (Rom. 7:7), and so sinful desires are “aroused” by this knowledge, and it results in sin; then the result is a slavery to Sin for those who are without God. As Christ said, “He who sins is a slave of Sin” (John 8:34).
Those who live a lifestyle of breaking the (the same as slavery to Sin) are under the Law of Sin and Death (Deut. 27:26). But when we die to Sin, we are “discharged” from it; he says “discharged from the law, dying to that in which we were held”. Well which “law”; what were we “held by”; what did we “die to”; the or Sin? Sin! We were held in bondage to Sin before God, not the ; we were against the before God, held in Sin. While were in bondage to Sin (living an evil lifestyle, cf. John 8:34), we were under the curse of God, the Law of Sin and Death (Deut. 27:26). But now, because we died to Sin, we are “discharged” from the Law of Sin and Death; we serve now “in the spirit and not in oldness of the letter”.
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hawkflint
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The inexorable love of God is revealed by the grace of God, which comes through faith in the Word of
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Post by hawkflint on Mar 17, 2017 21:07:46 GMT -8
He says, “so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.” But, “we know that the is spiritual” (Rom. 7:14). So what is letter? Paul talks about this elsewhere.“But if the ministry of death, written engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the children of Israel could not look steadfastly on the face of Moses for the glory of his face; which was passing away: won’t service of the Spirit be with much more glory” (2 Cor. 3:7-8)? The glory of the was passing away due to disobedience (Sin), not the itself. And besides according to Ezekiel and Jeremiah the whole purpose of the Spirit is to cause us to obey the .The acts as a ministry of death in this way: it reveals to us what sin is, and causes us to spiritually die (or be cursed) because of our disobedience (cf. Deut. 11:26-29; 27:26); and after we die spiritually, we then can die to Sin and be “born again”. Sin takes our knowledge of the commandments and uses it against us, causing our death (Rom. 7:11), and we are accountable for our giving in to Sin. It causes our spiritual death to lead us to faith in Christ (or in God’s Word; cf. John 1:14); we realize our need for a savior, and so we go to God in the faith that He will provide a way out. The way out us Christ. We die to Sin with Christ, and then are released from Sin, and thus, released from death.
The children of Israel took glory away from the by their disobedience, and it is disobedience that took away glory from the .“Being revealed that you are a letter of Christ, served by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tablets of stone, but in tablets that are hearts of flesh” (2 Corinthians 3:3). Paul offers context here: There are tablets of stone, and tablets that are fleshy hearts, and the Spirit wrote on these fleshy tablets; “I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them” (Ezekiel 36:26-27). This is why he references the Spirit, a stony tablet, and a flesh heart here. This is new covenant language. A stony heart is a sinful, uncircumcised heart that is against God’s , but a flesh heart is circumcised and is not against God’s .
“But if the ministry of death, written engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the children of Israel could not look steadfastly on the face of Moses for the glory of his face; which was passing away: won’t the service of the Spirit be with much more glory” (2 Corinthians 3:7-8)? The children of Israel had stony hearts, on which the was written. They were uncircumcised in the heart, and thus, were against the and were for their flesh. But the Spirit’s ministry takes people out of their flesh and puts them into the Spirit. We are written on with the Spirit, not the letter.“Who also made us sufficient as servants of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life” (2 Corinthians 3:6). Contrasted with the ink on stones, those written on with the Spirit have life, because a stony heart leads to death. It leads to death because it is sinful, and someone with this heart is sinful and against God’s . But someone with a heart of flesh will have life because of the Spirit, which leads us to faith (and that faith proceeds, and includes works of the ).
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hawkflint
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The inexorable love of God is revealed by the grace of God, which comes through faith in the Word of
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Post by hawkflint on Mar 17, 2017 21:17:44 GMT -8
7-12 “What shall we say then? Is the sin? May it never be! However, I wouldn’t have known sin, except through the . For I wouldn’t have known coveting, unless the had said, “You shall not covet.” But Sin, finding occasion through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of coveting. For apart from the , Sin is dead. I was alive apart from the once, but when the commandment came, Sin revived, and I died. The commandment, which was to life, this I found to death; for Sin, finding occasion through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me. Therefore the indeed is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good.” If our “sinful passions were aroused by the , working in our members to bring out fruit to death”, is the sinful then? Of course not; the shows us what sin is -the breaking of the . However, Sin found an advantage against us: it could and did produce evil in us, killing us by causing the Word of God to kill us because of our disobedience. Apart from the , Sin couldn’t kill us, but when the came, Sin sprang up, caused us to sin, and thus, caused the Word of God to kill us. Is the bad for all this? No, it is “indeed holy, and the commandment is holy, and righteous, and good.”
(There is another possible interpretation of this I’ll be working on)13 “Did then that which is good become death to me? May it never be! But Sin, that it might be shown to be sin, used what was good to bring about my death, that through the commandment sin might become exceedingly sinful.” Sin is the breaking of the , and if we are a slave to it, we are a slave to disobedience (breaking the ). Sin used the to bring about our death, and through this sin became even more sinful. It is Sin that is death to us, not the .14-20 “For we know that the is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin. For I don’t know what I am doing. For I don’t practice what I desire to do; but what I hate, that I do. But if what I don’t desire, that I do, I consent to the that it is good. So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing. For desire is present with me, but I don’t find it doing that which is good. For the good which I desire, I don’t do; but the evil which I don’t desire, that I practice. But if what I don’t desire, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me.” In Romans 7:5 Paul says “when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the , worked in our members to bring out fruit to death”; if we were “in the flesh” when we “produced fruit for death”, then the flesh is referring to our sinful nature. The is not fleshy, but spiritual. He says “For” at the beginning of verse 14, meaning that something in the previous verse(s) has meaning to what he is saying here. He talked about in the previous verses how he was killed because of Sin. It was always Sin that killed him, and this happens because he (as well as us, in regards to our nature) is fleshy, not spiritual; but the is spiritual. He then goes on to explain that he doesn’t want to do evil, but still does it because of the Sin within him (because while in our bodies of death, we are inclined to evil). We are in bodies of death (the “flesh”), and in it “dwells no good thing” because it is evil; the flesh is the reason we sin still, because Sin tries to and succeeds often in causing us to sin, and thus, it is Sin doing it, not us (though we are accountable for our giving in to it).We have two desires, two instructors: God or Sin, each giving us a desire; God gives good desire and Sin gives evil desire; each gives us instructions: God gives us good , and Sin gives us evil instructions. Paul desired the good, but ended up doing evil. Because he hated the evil he did, he agreed that the is good, good because the is God’s very own ways, and going against those ways shows that our ways are evil, and God’s ways are good.21-23 “I find then a law, that, to me, while I desire to do good, evil is present. For I delight in God’s after the inward man, but I see a different law in my members, warring against the of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of Sin which is in my members.” The new law is now identified: the “law” of Sin. This wars against the and attempts to bring us into the slavery of Sin (and while under its slavery we will spiritually die).24-25 “What a wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of this body of death? I thank God through Yeshua Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God’s , but with the flesh, the law of Sin.”
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hawkflint
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The inexorable love of God is revealed by the grace of God, which comes through faith in the Word of
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Post by hawkflint on Mar 17, 2017 21:28:17 GMT -8
Romans 8:1-15 1-2 “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Yeshua, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Yeshua has made me free from the law of Sin and Death.” A conclusion drawn by what he has been saying is that if someone is “in” Christ, they are not condemned. Why? Because they are set free from Sin, and thus, set free from Death. The Holy Spirit led us to faith, faith being credited to us as righteousness, leading to eternal life. This faith is a gift from God (Eph. 2:8); I am not saying that faith saves, otherwise faith becomes a work and we have something to boast about. We would not have any faith without God. God grants us faith and uses His Holy Spirit to cause us to come to faith, and He uses that faith as a means to grace; so we did nothing, but God did something. We are saved by grace through faith. The grace comes through faith, but the grace and faith are given and caused by God. Faith is the funnel, and the oil is grace.3-4 “For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” Compare to what he says in Galatians: “For if there had been a law given which could make alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law.” The first “law” here in this part of Galatians refers to the curses for disobedience (the Law of Sin and Death) and blessings for obedience to the . We cannot keep God’s standards, and the curses teach us our need for God to save us.But if the covenant made (which includes the law of Sin and Death) could grant life, that is, if we could obey the perfectly, then righteousness would have come from obedience to the . Then what he says next helps, “But the Scriptures imprisoned all things under Sin, that the promise by faith in Yeshua Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law (of Sin and Death), confined for the faith which should afterwards be revealed.” This means that the “Scripture” (the Law of Sin and Death) confined us (condemned us) until we came to faith in Christ. This is why he says next, “So that the law has become our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” The law of Sin and Death is our schoolmaster, teaching us our need for a savior. We, prompted by the Holy Spirit, seek a way out of condemnation and find it in God’s Word, Christ (cf. John 1:14). When faith comes, we are made freed from Sin’s slavery, and thus, freed from death. Therefore we are made free from the law of Sin and Death by grace through faith.
God made us righteous through Christ by transferring Christ’s record to ours through our death through baptism with Him, therefore granting us a perfect record and the righteousness thereof. He references the Spirit here, and the Spirit’s role in the new covenant is to cause us to walk in God’s (Jer. 31:33; Ez. 36:26-27); to walk after the flesh is to walk after sin, so this walking in the Spirit is the opposite of walking in the flesh (sinful nature).5-8 “For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace; because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s , neither indeed can it be. Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.” There is a difference between those who walk according to the flesh and those who walk according to the Spirit: those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh (sin), but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit (God’s ). The mind set on the flesh is (1) death, (2) hostile towards God, and (3) unwilling and unable to be subject to God’s . “Flesh” refers to our sinfulness, so those who set their minds on the “things” of the “flesh” are setting their minds on sinful ways, which is why it is death to set our minds on the flesh. So those who are persistent in sin even after they know that they must repent show that their minds are carnal.9 “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.” Those who come out of the flesh are in the Spirit, and God’s Spirit is in us if we come out of the flesh. If we are still in the flesh, we have not the Spirit, are not Christ’s, and are thus unsaved and under condemnation.10 “If Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but your spirit is alive because of righteousness.” If our spirit is alive because of righteousness, it must be dead when we are unrighteous; if our “body” is alive our spirit must be dead.11-15 “But if the Spirit of him who raised up Yeshua from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Yeshua from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if you live after the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God. For you didn’t receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, ‘Abba! Father!’.” Because of what he says in verse 11, we are indebted to live after the Spirit, not the flesh. If we live after the flesh, we will (spiritually?) die, but if we live by the Spirit and put to death our evil works by that Spirit we will live. Those who are living by the Spirit of God and are led by it are God’s children. Those who don’t live according to the instruction of the Spirit and are not led by it are not children of God, but children of the devil. The devil’s children live according to the flesh, and they will die, but God’s children live according to the Spirit, and will live. To live after “the flesh” is to live sinfully. Sin is the breaking of the (Romans 7:7), and so he is saying that if we practice evil we will die; if we practice a breaking of the we will be condemned.
This is my final post on Romans 6-8:15. Any feedback is welcome, appreciated, and asked for. I don't claim to have all of this right. Test everything. Correct me if I'm wrong please. Shalom.
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Post by alon on Mar 17, 2017 21:38:49 GMT -8
Proverbs 25:2 (ESV) It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.It is our glory to search these things out, IF our heart motivation is right and we are actually trying to edify others in the body, thus serving Elohim. Sounds like you are working that part out, so no harm/no foul. I see what you mean, but I wouldn't take the view sin has no pull on us even now. Too many people fall away, and I'd be the last person to tell you I don't sin from time to time. I think what is being said is more along the line that we are to lay down our lives daily. We do not our will but that of God. 1 Peter 5:8 (ESV) Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.It is believers who are being addressed here; believers who the enemy (and sin) are seeking to devour. The unsaved are already in the belly of the beast, so he has no need to seek to devour them. It's us he wants; especially we who obey . OK, here you are getting pretty close to what many mainstream Christian denominations teach. So we need to be clear about a few things. Death to sin is not a one time thing for the believer. It is an ongoing process and one that plays out many times each day in the life of every believer. Saying we "die to sin" and that the "old man was crucified" is Biblical, but I do not think it as meant to be understood the way most people who hear those words today understand them. Death is final. Crucifixion infers the payment of the debt and it too is final, the result being death. I argued with one Wycliff staffer once who told me "once saved you cannot sin, because you are already covered and the debt payed." I asked for clarification, and was told yes, no matter what you do you cannot sin." This is part of their supporting scripture for this kind of foolish doctrine. You are not wrong in what you say, but it can be completely misconstrued, and very easily. That's why I want to be clear about what this is saying. Yeshua's crucifixion and death were a one time thing. And through that salvation is offered to all men. He validated grace, both past and future with His death. We are saved INTO that death and that grace, meaning we become a part of it when we accept Yeshua and walk with our Elohim. But we can walk away. We can be enticed by our lusts, or lured away by false doctrine to the point we no longer walk with our God, but with the god(s) of this world. Romans 12:1 (ESV) I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.We don't just "die to sin" and that's it. We are a living sacrifice, told to: Philippians 2:12c (ESV) work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
Just want to emphasize the underlined part here. We make the effort daily to "avoid letting 'Sin reign in our mortal bodies.'” Also, to be "under the law" is a Hebraism for being condemned by the law; which of course occurs with unrepented sin. Those doing what the law says (following ) are not the ones "under the law." Those who believe and place their trust in Yeshua and who follow the law the best they can; whose walk with God is a daily practice, these are the ones "under grace." Again, I am not disagreeing. What you say is correct. It's just that I recognize the language having been brought up Southern Baptist. So I know what people can make of these statements. One of the things we as Meshiachim need to do is look at how we say things and how they might be taken. The old adage "Communication is not what you are saying; it's what they THINK you are saying" is still true. And these phrases have been carefully crafted for centuries to look good and check out biblically, but they also lay the groundwork for false doctrine to be taught. Dan C
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Post by alon on Mar 17, 2017 21:47:55 GMT -8
OK, that clears up a lot. Exactly the point I was getting at, only more succinctly put!
Exactly!
Dan C
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Post by alon on Mar 18, 2017 0:06:42 GMT -8
Well, in this installment you have fallen somewhat into mainstream Christian dogma: To continue that thought; "But fear not because as is fading Jesus will come and save us from the law." , nor its glory ever faded. is The Word; Yeshua is also called "The Word." And just as neither nor Yeshua never faded, Yeshua never saved us from . We don't need saving from ; we need saving because we disobeyed , just like the Jews did. I moved this up because it continues the previous thought. "The Jews removed the glory from ." This is both anti-Semetic and untrue. They more than anyone have kept alive. They more than anyone have followed . OUR, the world's disobedience may be said to diminish in some ways. But were it not for the Jews, pre and post Yeshua, God would have ad to raise witnesses from the stones in order to preserve in the earth. Mainstream Christianity presents this argument to us so that tey can once again blame the Jews for their own disobedience. I think we need to be clear here on just when and with who this new covenant is. I say that because mainC uses this prophecy to say they do not need . The law is now written on their hearts. However if you read Ezekiel 36 you will see that this prophecy was made specifically to Israel. "Well WE are Spiritual Israel!" No, there is no such thing, and if there were Christians sure ain't it. But more than this it is a prophecy of the Olam Haba. The things it says will happen are happening (but not done) now. Israel regathered and the dry land is in bloom ... we are witnessing a miracle. However for Christianity to be correct these would have to be complete. Israel can still have draught and all the Jews aren't in Israel. And if they are "spiritual Israel" how come they aren't in Israel themselves? Moreover these things would have to have been done almost 2000 yrs ago. Or were previous Christians not"Spiritual Israel?" It was they who invented replacement theology in the first place. They don't get to share in its' benefits? So this prophecy is specifically for Israel, and is for a later time. This lesson is not just for or about the "children of Israel." Read that "the Jews." Them evil Jews ... All Jews? Avraham, Moshe, Yehoshua, Melech Dovid, the prophets, the judges, Miriam and Yoseph ... Yeshua Himself. All men have rebelled. All (Yeshua excepted) have fallen short of the glory of God. All of us have (or once had) hearts of stone. Those who take to heart are given hearts of flesh, capable of being circumcised. And yes, the Ruach guides us. It is the Ruach which calls us to repentance in the first place. But if we do not stay in the Word, the Ruach will leave us.We can't continue to sin and stay in His grace. This I think is the point of the entire study, right there. Agree with your conclusion here. I disagree with the interpreter. This should be a "renewed covenant," not a new covenant. We know this because all the terms and conditions of the "old" covenant have not been met. Covenants can be added to, but not changed. Laws can be changed, which is why Christianity calls Tora "the Law." It is why they have a "New Testament." A testament is a legal document. A 'Last Will and Testament' can be changed simply by making a new one. It can also be challenged in and changed by a court. So the church made the B'rith Chadashah into their "New Greek Legal Document" and set up their court in Rome and voila! A new religion is born. Sorry to sidetrack your post. I see a lot of work went into it, and mostly you are right. But there is some holdover from Christian influences here. And these are some of the scriptures Christianity relies on in its -less theology. So it is important we are clear on some of these things. Dan C
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hawkflint
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The inexorable love of God is revealed by the grace of God, which comes through faith in the Word of
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Post by hawkflint on Mar 18, 2017 12:26:14 GMT -8
I see what you mean, but I wouldn't take the view sin has no pull on us even now. Too many people fall away, and I'd be the last person to tell you I don't sin from time to time. I think what is being said is more along the line that we are to lay down our lives daily. We do not our will but that of God. OK, here you are getting pretty close to what many mainstream Christian denominations teach. So we need to be clear about a few things. Death to sin is not a one time thing for the believer. It is an ongoing process and one that plays out many times each day in the life of every believer. Saying we "die to sin" and that the "old man was crucified" is Biblical, but I do not think it as meant to be understood the way most people who hear those words today understand them. Death is final. Crucifixion infers the payment of the debt and it too is final, the result being death. I argued with one Wycliff staffer once who told me "once saved you cannot sin, because you are already covered and the debt payed." I asked for clarification, and was told yes, no matter what you do you cannot sin." This is part of their supporting scripture for this kind of foolish doctrine. You are not wrong in what you say, but it can be completely misconstrued, and very easily. That's why I want to be clear about what this is saying. Yeshua's crucifixion and death were a one time thing. And through that salvation is offered to all men. He validated grace, both past and future with His death. We are saved INTO that death and that grace, meaning we become a part of it when we accept Yeshua and walk with our Elohim. But we can walk away. We can be enticed by our lusts, or lured away by false doctrine to the point we no longer walk with our God, but with the god(s) of this world. Romans 12:1 "Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship."We don't just "die to sin" and that's it. We are a living sacrifice, told to: Philippians 2:12 "work out our salvation with fear and with trembling." What I mean to say is not that Sin has no "pull on us", but that it no longer has mastery (dominion) over us; we are no longer under its' slavery, but under the slavery of God. "He who lives a sinful lifestyle is a slave to Sin" (John 8:34). This is what I try to say. I wouldn't ever think that we "couldn't sin" (huh?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?), because I sin all the time (and I hate it, but I am working on it).
I believed that our death to Sin was one time, where we realize that we are dead because of our sins, and come to faith unto grace. Coming to faith in this case was the baptism of the spirit (not in the flesh with water), where we died with Christ. It is that moment that we are dead to Sin, and have then "passed from death to life" (John something I'll edit it later on). That is what I thought the metaphorical crucifixion and the spiritual baptism were; the changing of evil ways to God's ways by God-given faith. Are you saying that this above that I just said happens throughout our lifetime? Because that makes sense in one sense. If faith brings us to our death to Sin, and we live a life of faith, then we are dying daily to Sin I agree. Is this correct?
Interesting. I didn't know this thanks.
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Post by alon on Mar 18, 2017 13:07:29 GMT -8
Yes, it is an ongoing process. And I wasn't saying you were wrong, just that the way it is phrased is a lot like mainstream churches teach. This allows them to say they die daily, while also teaching things like eternal security. Take that phrase as an example. To you and me it means not even ha'satan can take us from God's hand. To some in mainC it means you cannot lose your salvation, no matter what. See how we can be talking at cross purposes using their language? Most Meshichim believe you can fall away or step away and are no longer "saved." Another term that can get a bit dicey, even within Christianity, let alone between us and them. I still tend to think in terms of saved or unsaved; but Rav S speaks more in terms of your halacha, the way you walk with the Almighty is either good or it is not. I don't recall him ever speaking in terms of saved and unsaved. He certainly knows those terms, as he was actually ordained in a major Christian denomination for a short time. But he was raised with predominantly Jewish thought processes. His schooling was in Israel. I was raised in the Southern Baptist church, and trained in the pagan Public School System in the US. So it may take some time for my thinking to "adjust." Just to be clear too; I wasn't saying you are anti-Semitic here. Just that there is still a lot of anti-Semitic thought and speech we have as holdovers from our Christian past. Most of the Christians I know wouldn't describe themselves as anti-Semitic either. But there is so much latent anti-Semitism in the church, and we were so familiar with it, we don't even recognize it when we speak. "The Jews killed Jesus"- "the Jews rejected Jesus" - "the Pharisees hated Jesus" - "God dealt with the Jews in the Old Testament as an example to us, but in the New Testament He established His church so WE could be saved." These are common in mainC thought. And we once heard them and didn't question them; but all are both false and anti-Semitic in nature. Your point here is accurate. can be diminished in others sight because of our actions. But itself cannot be diminished. It is God's instructions to us for holy living. And not one jot or tittle can diminish from that. Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 25, 2017 17:01:07 GMT -8
This is a developing idea that I am just checking and working through. So feel free to help out. Is it reasonable to assume that it is only through the Spirit that the can be kept, and that's perhaps a primary point? First, before Yeshua's ascension, Israel couldn't generally rely on His Spirit the way we can today. As believers we are guaranteed His Spirit as a comfort and guide to help us in sanctification, and sanctification is the purpose of to begin with. So G-d gave us a reason to turn to Him completely ( ) as well as what we need to do so in Yeshua and His Spirit. Second, today Israel is in exile and there is no physical Temple. No one can keep the in its entirety based on a physical place. So again, we see a need that we can't fulfill on our own. I am thinking, we were given Yeshua's Spirit specifically so we can worship and draw near G-d and keep His in Spirit because we flat out can't any other way. I don't know exactly what I am saying except that , Yeshua and His Spirit are inseparable, and without them all I think you lack in your relationship with G-d. I am making a leap of faith there but that is what my own faith and testimony have shown me. You cannot draw near to G-d without His Spirt, which in truth will lead you to and the holy standards that only it reveals so that you can draw near to G-d. Then you can more fully understand your dependence on Yeshua and His redemption and worship in Spirit and truth. They work together, and if you try to separate them, you will lose out. It is modern day religion, both Christianity and Judaism, separating them out that we are struggling with. Somehow, thinking of it like this makes life more doable because it is so easy to get pulled into their confusion when we are defending ourselves. I have spent years frustrated over my inability to keep . The truth, as I understand it, is that no one can any-which-way you look at it. No one can without Yeshua that is. That motivates me to do what I can on His behalf because of all He has given for me to be able to do so. He redeemed us and gave us His inheritance as well as His observant example to follow in His Spirit. We have all for a purpose of meeting our needs according to our fallen circumstances, and all are found in these fallen circumstances in Him. It's like He is the one who kept everything together for us so we can find and pick up the pieces. Everything He gives us is something we can't get on our own and something that calls us to point the world to Him. Israel did that for us. They showed us our need, and look at how blessed we are because of it. The "church" ,however, generally has not done that at all for Israel. I don't know exactly why the church doesn't see we are failing our responsibility toward Israel when we were told to go to them first, to provoke them to jealousy. and we know Yeshua grieves for them and listens for the day they call Him back.
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Post by alon on Mar 25, 2017 21:20:26 GMT -8
Always good to hear from you! I was recently talking with a brother who came to Yeshua from Orthodox Judaism. I had demonstrated some erroneous thinking- a holdover from my own Christian upbringing. Your post here is a great example of what I told him was the reason for my error: those of us raised Christian often come to the same truths but from a different and too often wrong path. Allow me to start with the end of your post first: Your own "faith and testimony" have led you to what in my opinion is absolutely true. However I think I can see some of the idea of Three Persons of the Godhead there. Again true. Agree, except it is the work of the Ruach to help us hold everything together, and to give us "something we can't get on our own and something that calls us to point the world" to Yeshua. This may be splitting hairs, as it is still all the same God regardless; and we believe in different manifestations of that same God instead of a 'Triune Godhead' with separate individuals as God. However this muddling of the jobs which each manifestation is responsible for is a part of the process of learning new ways to look at Elohim. We get there, but by a convoluted path. Let's go back to the start of your post: The Ruach HaKodesh was active in the TNK, and the Jews were very aware of this: Exodus 31:1-3 (KJV) And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Numbers 27:18 (KJV) And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;
Judges 3:10 (KJV) And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushanrishathaim.
1nSamuel 10:10 (KJV) And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.Those are just a few places where the Ruach was known and specifically stated to have acted. It is Christian doctrine that says these and others mentioned were isolated instances, and that the Ruach was not active in the lives of God's people like He is today. However I would argue that, just like today, the Ruach was as active in peoples lives as they wanted. Do we think it was by the power of the Israelites alone that they conquered the land? Every man had God with him and acted in trust in and the strength of that Spirit. Could anyone have walked through the parted seas in his own spirit, or that of Moshe? Could their children have later walked past the piled up waters of the Jordan in flood stage without the help of the Ruach? All through the TNK the Ruach HaKodesh was with anyone who placed their trust in El Elohe Yisro'el, just as it is today. And just because the working of the Spirit was mentioned in specific cases does not, as Christian doctrine says, mean God only worked in the lives of those mentioned. I would argue that those were mentioned because they walked more closely with Elohim, trusting God more; and that they received an extra helping due to the tasks God had set for them. In Exodus 31:1-3 above, for example, Bezaleel was to oversee the construction of he Mishkan. This had to be done by many diverse craftsmen, and everything had to be made to exacting detail. It was his job to tell them what had to be done, and then to make sure the job was done up to God's standards. Again, it is Christian doctrine that says 'we can't keep the law perfectly' so why try?' They say the Law was given to show us that no one could keep it and thus save themselves. But while it is true the 'law' nor even our keeping will save us, our trust in and obedience to the God who gave us that does save us. That is God's instructions in how we are to worship and walk with Him. As you point out, we no longer have the Temple, so we cannot keep those instructions specific to the Temple. This doesn't mean is no longer applicable, though. Yeshua was not a Levite, so He couldn't keep over half the TNK because those verses had to do with the duties of the priests. For Him (or us) to even try would have been sin. We need to divest ourselves of the idea that we cannot try to lead Godly lives according to Elohim's instructions ( ), so why try? We try because we were told to do it that way. We keep all the mitzvoth we can; and as you say, we do so in the Spirit of and with the help of God. Just like the pre-Yeshua Hebrews did. Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 26, 2017 7:49:56 GMT -8
I have a lot more to think through. I do agree that the Spirit was active in Israel, but it also seems there was something added beyond that after Yeshua's earthly work. That is based on what He told the disciples, the significance of the giving of it to the disciples before they were sent out, as well as the documented role it played in the early congregation. I am just looking at the fact Israel didn't keep the , were exiled because of that, and we now exist in the absence of a Temple and can't even apply most of the commandments when I say we can't keep the . I would like to emphasize that I am saying we can't keep it by ourselves. I think what Christians may be missing, and what I am suggesting, is the work of Yeshua applies to our process of sanctification which relates to our ability to keep . So Yeshua, His Spirit , and all work together on our behalf in our circumstances as fallen human beings in a fallen world to keep us in G-d's will. I am not saying don't try to keep . I am saying if Yeshua gave us atonement, His perfect and - observant Spirit, and made us Temples of the Living G-d, what's our excuse? We still can't do most of the commandments, but that's where Yeshua's work of atonement then comes into play very practically for us in keeping what we can in this day and I age I think. We do what we can, are not consumed in G-d's holiness, as Yeshua finishes the work we can't. The Temple was about dwelling with G-d. Yeshua gave us a way to do that in completing for us the work we cant, and I think that work applies very practically to observance. I don't know. I just think there is something true in our inability to keep , but that it applies differently than what Christians way. I think it is somehow reconciled in Yeshua's work and the Spirit, not only giving us eternal life and intimacy with G-d, but guiding us to observance in His Spirit in spite of our circumstances. I think Yeshua gives us the opportunity to keep through Him, and that serves the opposite purpose of what Christianity suggests when they say we can't. Does that make sense? I am saying,yes, we cant, but, because of the work of Yeshua and the Spirit He gives us, we can......
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hawkflint
New Member
The inexorable love of God is revealed by the grace of God, which comes through faith in the Word of
Posts: 29
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Post by hawkflint on Apr 20, 2017 12:03:53 GMT -8
I think we need to be clear here on just when and with who this new covenant is. I say that because mainC uses this prophecy to say they do not need . The law is now written on their hearts. However if you read Ezekiel 36 you will see that this prophecy was made specifically to Israel. "Well WE are Spiritual Israel!" No, there is no such thing, and if there were Christians sure ain't it. But more than this it is a prophecy of the Olam Haba. The things it says will happen are happening (but not done) now. Israel regathered and the dry land is in bloom ... we are witnessing a miracle. However for Christianity to be correct these would have to be complete. Israel can still have draught and all the Jews aren't in Israel. And if they are "spiritual Israel" how come they aren't in Israel themselves? Moreover these things would have to have been done almost 2000 yrs ago. Or were previous Christians not"Spiritual Israel?" It was they who invented replacement theology in the first place. They don't get to share in its' benefits? So this prophecy is specifically for Israel, and is for a later time. I'm sorry. I've been gone for a while and I should've responded sooner.
You said, "'Well WE are Spiritual Israel!' No, there is no such thing, and if there were Christians sure ain't it."
But Paul said, "Therefore remember that once you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “uncircumcision” by that which is called “circumcision”, (in the flesh, made by hands); that you were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition, the hostility rendering powerless the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having killed the hostility thereby. He came and preached peace to you who were far off and to those who were near. For through him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone; in whom the whole building, fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:11-22).
If someone was "separate from Christ" and thus "alienated" from the "commonwealth" of the nation of Elohim (Yisrael), then those who are unsaved are those separate from Christ and are not Yisrael. So if one is joined to Christ, they are "not longer strangers and foreigners", but they are "fellow citizens" of Yisrael aren't they? I'm genuinely curious a out this. Shalom for now and Elohim smile on you all
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Post by alon on Apr 20, 2017 12:55:54 GMT -8
You said, "'Well WE are Spiritual Israel!' No, there is no such thing, and if there were Christians sure ain't it."
But Paul said, "Therefore remember that once you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “uncircumcision” by that which is called “circumcision”, (in the flesh, made by hands); that you were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition, the hostility rendering powerless the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having killed the hostility thereby. He came and preached peace to you who were far off and to those who were near. For through him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone; in whom the whole building, fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:11-22).
If someone was "separate from Christ" and thus "alienated" from the "commonwealth" of the nation of Elohim (Yisrael), then those who are unsaved are those separate from Christ and are not Yisrael. So if one is joined to Christ, they are "not longer strangers and foreigners", but they are "fellow citizens" of Yisrael aren't they? I'm genuinely curious a out this. Shalom for now and Elohim smile on you all Yes, if you are saved you are joined with Israel. But we need to be clear here: we are joined to Israel, they are not joined to us. We are the wild olive branches grafted onto the cultivated tree of Israel. The reason this is so important to get right is Christianity has turned tis on its' head, demanding a Jew who comes to Yeshua be joined to them; grafted onto their pagan tree. And that is what is meant when the term "Spiritual Isreal" is used. It is replacement theology. They are the "old Israel," we are the new, better, "Spiritual Israel." No, we serve a Jewish Messiah and the religion He laid down as our example and as commanded in is a Jewish form of religion. We didn't replace anyone, we joined Israel- spiritually as well as in our practices and worship. To do less is disobedience, which contradicts any claim to spirituality. Dan C
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