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Post by alon on Feb 8, 2017 20:31:53 GMT -8
Is there anywhere in the Bible where we are commanded to obey the laws of the land where we are?
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Feb 9, 2017 15:56:24 GMT -8
Moses offered to enter into a contract while passing through lands on his way to the promise land. I believe this is as close as you will get to a requirement to obey the laws of other nations.
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Post by mystic on Mar 11, 2017 4:35:16 GMT -8
Guys, what happens under dictatorship and oppressive laws, does God give us a pass when we oppose it or are we supposed to suffer for the sake of obeying the laws of the land?
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Post by alon on Mar 11, 2017 6:38:54 GMT -8
Guys, what happens under dictatorship and oppressive laws, does God give us a pass when we oppose it or are we supposed to suffer for the sake of obeying the laws of the land? Whenever the government or another entity such as gangs and drug cartels is evil and takes control, or whenever an outside government threatens our own, we are to fight it. The Bible is chock full of examples of this. The Hebrews were to purge the land when they took possession of their inheritance. The Judges of the TNK rose up and led Hebrew armies to defeat their enemies. The prophets led opposition when the Jews own government did evil. So that one I can answer "yes, we can and should fight evil in government." The question then becomes how, and to what extent. Should we just protest, or should we take up arms against the government? That is a judgement call, but one we'd better make rightly! Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Mar 11, 2017 11:19:01 GMT -8
Guys, what happens under dictatorship and oppressive laws, does God give us a pass when we oppose it or are we supposed to suffer for the sake of obeying the laws of the land? Whenever the government or another entity such as gangs and drug cartels is evil and takes control, or whenever an outside government threatens our own, we are to fight it. The Bible is chock full of examples of this. The Hebrews were to purge the land when they took possession of their inheritance. The Judges of the TNK rose up and led Hebrew armies to defeat their enemies. The prophets led opposition when the Jews own government did evil. So that one I can answer "yes, we can and should fight evil in government." The question then becomes how, and to what extent. Should we just protest, or should we take up arms against the government? That is a judgement call, but one we'd better make rightly! Dan C
It is when the civil law is in direct opposition to the ways of G-d that we are to stand up for our G-d given laws, and yet to do so without unwise action. The entire focus of the Scriptures is on how we are to act, not how we force others to act in a land not under our control as Believers.
In taxation, Yeshua said to render unto Caesar those things that are Caesars, and to G-d those things which are G-d's. But the commandment applies to all Civil law. Where Civil law is for the ordering of the nation, we are to comply if it does not transgress G-d's laws. Where the Civil laws actually oppose G-d's laws is where the rubber meets the road. It is the commandments that relate to loving G-d and loving one another that are crucial here. One day we are told in prophecy we will reach a time in which we will need to bow to an AntiChrist image and take a mark to enter into commerce, and obtain the necessities of life. That is mostly a death sentence for anyone who truly loves G-d, as we must avoid idolatry.
Free Speech is a 'right' that we here in America take for granted, but it is under attack worldwide, so that any opinion or statement that is not approved by Civil law is under attack. And under an athiestic, humanistic or polythiestic government, we are to walk in our own way, and be content that we are doing right, rather than obeying manmade government. However, Yeshua said to be as wise as serpents and as meek as doves as we go out into the world, so that we be not crushed immediately for offending those in power. Indeed, much of what is written in the Brit Chadashah speaks to living peaceably with others, giving up our own way, our own desires, where they do not transgress G-d's laws...by being meek, and humble, to give way to the enemy, and then to pray for him even as he steals from you, or harms you. Hard to do, but possible in Yeshua.
It is speaking against evil that must be done, but in a way so that it does not trigger persecution unnecessarily. Most of the people that I see running into problems in this area are unwise in their speech, saying what is not required, and assuming that the right to free speech will protect them from the ill will of others. So, we can speak, and protest, and organize...under the laws, and in careful attention to how we phrase our defiance. We will not avoid persecution, but I think it can be tempered...at least for the time being in the West.
However, I think that we need to do what is right in our own lives first, before we begin to tell others how to act, or attempt to change how other people think in the avenues that are open to us politically. |
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Post by mystic on Mar 22, 2017 2:06:59 GMT -8
This is suggesting to me that we are to submit to authority whether they may be right or wrong?
Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority,
14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.
15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.
16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves.
17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.
18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God.
20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.
21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22 “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.”
23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.
24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”
25 For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
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Post by alon on Mar 22, 2017 3:46:36 GMT -8
mystic, nowhere in that passage does it say we are to submit ourselves to evil, whether governments or religions or any other entity. And the examples I gave say we should not. So remember, if there is a disagreement in scripture, either it isn't scripture, or the translation is wrong, or most likely our understanding of what is said is wrong. What you read is talking about humility. and even in the face of an evil government like Rome there is a time to speak up and a time to be quiet.
1 Peter 2:13-14 (KJV) Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
What about when governments punish the moral and raise up evildoers? If you lived in a land taken by ISIS, would you submit or resist? And remember, submission means disavowing Elohim and bending your knee to a demon, Allah. Both the TNK and the B'rith Chadashah are full of proscriptions against worshiping idols/demons. Here's one of the last:
Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;
So stand humbly when tried in court for things you did not do. If found guilty, make the best of the situation. But if the opportunity to resist their evil arises, then we should fight. And if required to go against the Word, especially to bow before idols/worship demons, then we should to resist even unto death:
Daniel 3:16-18 (NASB) "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image you have set up."
That was the response of the three Hebrews who faced the fiery furnace rather than submit and bow before a pagan idol. Daniel also resisted Nebuchadnezzar more than once. Note too that they resisted humbly, depending on God to save them. Sometimes we fight, others we stand firm in our conviction and allow God to work. But we resist. So when you know there are scriptures which teach us to resist the government, and you read things like 1 Peter where it says submit, you should look deeper. Because scripture doesn't contradict itself.
Dan C
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Post by alon on May 8, 2017 8:59:03 GMT -8
Tehillim 119:33-35 (OJB) Teach me, Hashem, the derech of Thy chukkot; and I shall keep it unto the end. Give me understanding, and I shall keep Thy  ; yes, I shall be shomer over it with my kol lev. Make me to go in the path of Thy mitzvot; for therein do I delight.
Psalm 119:33-35 (ESV)
Teach me, O Lord, the way of your statutes;
and I will keep it to the end [or keep it as my reward]
Give me understanding, that I may [and I will] keep [preserve] your law
and observe it with my whole heart.
Lead me in the path of your commandments,
for I delight in it.
Leviticus 20:23 (ESV) And you shall not walk in the customs of the nation that I am driving out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I detested them.
Romans 13:1 (ESV) Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
So which is it? Do we obey the law of the land, or do we resist, even overthrow the government? After all, that government was set in place by God, according to Romans 13. Men are allowed freewill even in the establishment of their governments. So yes, God often gives us the government we desire. But when that government turns to evil, we are to resist. The government here in the US was set up on this principle that we should fight unjust laws. This isn’t taught in civics classes any more, but whenever a case goes to trial both the defendant AND the law are on trial! A jury cannot change the law. But they can find the accused innocent either because the law shouldn’t apply in that case; or just because it is a bad law! Enough aquitals based on the law being bad and something will change. Acts 5:27-29 (ESV) And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest questioned them, saying, “We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man's blood upon us.” But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.I think here is the difference. We are to follow God’s laws first, then those of the governing authority. If the law is moral, we are to follow it. If immoral, or contrary to God’s laws, we do not. I think Romans 13 is talking about good government; or at least government that is not given over to doing evil. It is also warning that there may be consequences for disobedience if you read the whole chapter. But there are times when we are to resist; to disobey. An example might be if the Muslims get their way and Sharia is instituted in parts of the country. Obeying Sharia is the same as bowing your knee to the demon Allah. That I will not do. Dan C
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Post by Questor on May 14, 2017 23:37:18 GMT -8
Leviticus 20:23 (ESV) And you shall not walk in the customs of the nation that I am driving out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I detested them. Romans 13:1 (ESV) Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. [/font] So which is it? Do we obey the law of the land, or do we resist, even overthrow the government? After all, that government was set in place by God, according to Romans 13. In the event that we resist, we will either die, be imprisoned,
or change the government, depending on what G-d wills in regard to that government, and that circumstance.
It says nothing about what we are supposed to do.
That is in the .
Exodus 20:1-6 (CJB)
1 Then God said all these words:
2 א 2 “I am Adonai your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the abode of slavery.
3 ב 3 “You are to have no other gods before me.
4 You are not to make for yourselves a carved image or any kind of representation of anything in heaven above, on the earth beneath or in the water below the shoreline.
5 You are not to bow down to them or serve them; for I, Adonai your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
6 but displaying grace to the thousandth generation of those who love me and obey my mitzvot.
Obedience and obeisance come from the same word.
o·bei·sance
ōˈbāsəns,əˈbāsəns,ōˈbēsəns,əˈbēsns/Submit
noun
deferential respect.
"they paid obeisance to the prince"
synonyms: respect, homage, worship, adoration, reverence, veneration, honor, submission, deference
"he made a very formal, elaborate gesture of obeisance"
a gesture expressing deferential respect, such as a bow or curtsy.
plural noun: obeisances
"she made a deep obeisance"
synonyms: bow, curtsy, bob, genuflection, salaam; historicalkowtow
"he made a half-bow, half-curtsy, a sort of unisex obeisance"
One does obeisance to a foreign entity in exchange for certain guarantees.
We are strangers in a strange land, and we have no other Prince but Yeshua. We live in the world, but are not of it, and that can be uncomfortable, particularly when the world doesn't want us to do what we usually do...which is not what they are doing.
Men are allowed freewill even in the establishment of their governments. So yes, God often gives us the government we desire. But when that government turns to evil, we are to resist. The government here in the US was set up on this principle that we should fight unjust laws. This isn’t taught in civics classes any more, but whenever a case goes to trial both the defendant AND the law are on trial! A jury cannot change the law. But they can find the accused innocent either because the law shouldn’t apply in that case; or just because it is a bad law! Enough aquitals based on the law being bad and something will change. Acts 5:27-29 (ESV) And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest questioned them, saying, “We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man's blood upon us.” But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.I think here is the difference. We are to follow God’s laws first, then those of the governing authority. If the law is moral, we are to follow it. If immoral, or contrary to God’s laws, we do not. I think Romans 13 is talking about good government; or at least government that is not given over to doing evil. It is also warning that there may be consequences for disobedience if you read the whole chapter. But there are times when we are to resist; to disobey. An example might be if the Muslims get their way and Sharia is instituted in parts of the country. Obeying Sharia is the same as bowing your knee to the demon Allah. That I will not do. Dan C [/quote] Which is why one has to get use to the idea of there being real persecution in this place that once was America, and is just barely still the United States.
Most people I know don't want to go that far, even in their thoughts, but we have to prepare for it...what we will do in this circumstance, and in that one, because you need to know when you are to say the equivalent of "NO!" to either the LGBTxxxwhatever person, or the one yelling Allahu Akbar, at which time one yells as loudly as possible, preferably to the holder of the gun being pointed at you, "Allahu LO akbar...YHVH akbar."
And take the consequences.
However, Yeshua told the Disciples to be as wise as serpents, and as meek as doves, so we need to prepare for every conceivable eventuality...including just saying nothing while we gently and meekly resist. |
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Post by jimmie on May 15, 2017 4:43:00 GMT -8
King James Bible John 19:11
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
International Standard Version
Jesus answered him, "You have no authority over me at all, except what was given to you from above. That's why the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."
The government has no authority or power that was not given them by God and his Word/Jesus. Here Jesus plainly states that what Pilot (government) was sinning and those who turned him over to the government were sinning. God(Jesus) never gave the government the right to sin.
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Post by Questor on May 16, 2017 22:01:22 GMT -8
King James Bible John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. International Standard Version Jesus answered him, "You have no authority over me at all, except what was given to you from above. That's why the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." The government has no authority or power that was not given them by God and his Word/Jesus. Here Jesus plainly states that what Pilot (government) was sinning and those who turned him over to the government were sinning. God(Jesus) never gave the government the right to sin.
YHVH as Yeshua saw that there was no other way to redeem us except by dying for us...and not having a body of the human kind, got himself one, lived in it, and died in it...according to his own will, as YHVH and as Yeshua.
And G-d is giving the authority to persecute the Children of G-d to the Adversary for a short time. I agree that the Adversary will have the right to persecute us for disobedience to his laws. I simply do not agree that he has the right to demand my obedience, particularly on pain of death, when under G-d's superior Laws, bowing to the Adversary is against YHVH's laws. Thus it just might be a time that we will not find to be conducive to our good health, for we must respectfully decline to do as the Adversary wants, or legally decrees...even though he is in power under the permissive will of G-d, because G-d's perfect will is that we obey him, YHVH, first. |
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- there are 70 faces to 
