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Post by rjcjid on Jan 21, 2017 22:39:20 GMT -8
I heard Chuck Missler talking on the Radio saying (not an exact quote) that the Jews in Jesus’s day, believed that God had broken His word because they believe that the scepter had departed Judah and Shiloh had not yet come, as in Genesis 49:10. “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come… “ If I understand it correctly the Scepter represents power, authority, the right to self-rule and that around the time of Jesus’s birth, or shortly after, Rome had taken that authority away. If I understand it correctly the definition, or at least part of the definition, of that authority is the right to put a criminal to death. Which Rome had taken away from the Jews hands, which is evidenced at the trial and crucifixion of Jesus. Because this power had been taken away the Jewish leaders were in sack cloth and ashes because they thought that God’s word had been broken. But they didn’t realize that Shiloh had come in the form of Jesus, so God’s word was not broken.
I’ve searched to try to find any scriptural or historical reference to back up the statement that the Jewish leaders thought that God’s word had been broken and they were in sack cloth and ashes but I have yet to find it.
I’m hoping that from the Jewish community, someone on this forum, or possibly connected to another forum as well, might be able to lead me to a reference that supports the idea that the Jewish leaders/people, around the Jesus’s time on earth, believed God had broken His word?
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Post by alon on Jan 22, 2017 4:43:00 GMT -8
Missler suffers from a Christian perspective; though he is one of the better ones. A case can be made for his point of view there, as many were looking for Yeshua to accept the mantle of His earthly kingship.
John 6:15 (CJB) Yeshua knew that they were on the point of coming and seizing him, in order to make him king; so he went back to the hills again. This time he went by himself.
Rome had captured Yisro'el in the 1st cen BCE, and their rule was harsh. And they required their subjects to acknowlege the deity of the Roman Emperor. Observant Jews could not do this.
Yeshua was royalty, of the line of Melech Dovid, and next in line to become "King of the Jews." He was the Crown Prince of Yisro'el. And it was a time when they knew Messiah was coming. It was also a time of revolutionary fever in "Palestine." (And yes, the Jews are the REAL Palestinians!) So there is some truth to Missler's position here.
The problem is that he makes it sound like the whole country was against Yeshua for this reason. It is possible that well over half of the Jews in Yisro'el followed Him at that time!
Acts 2:41,47 (ESV) So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls … praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Acts 4:4 (ESV) But many of those who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men came to about five thousand.
Acts 6:7 (ESV) And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith.
Acts 9:31 (ESV) So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace and was being built up. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it multiplied.
Acts 21:20 (ESV) And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law,
So "the Jews" did not reject Yeshua; only some Jews did. But this is never how Christianity presents it, either in their commentaries or in their translations.
Dan C
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Post by rjcjid on Jan 22, 2017 18:14:09 GMT -8
Dan, I totally agree with the scriptures you've quoted. However all these scriptures were after Jesus started his ministry. To better clarify my question; Is there any recorded historical or scriptural evidence that the Jewish leadership, and or the Jewish people in general, believed that God had broken His word regarding the "scepter departing Judah? I'm specifically thinking of a time frame close to the birth of Christ. Regarding your statement, "So "the Jews" did not reject Yeshua; only some Jews did. But this is never how Christianity presents it, either in their commentaries or in their translations." Growing up as a Christian I was never taught that all the Jewish people rejected Jesus. Whoever teaches that contradicts scripture itself. The disciples were Jewish and there were a lot of people that followed Jesus. Not all that followed Jesus were believers, but the 12 disciples were far far from the only believers. I was taught that the more powerful Jewish leadership rejected Jesus and used their position of power incite others to follow their lead. How many followed their lead? I don't know. Jesus's ministry was a threat to the powerful position Jewish leadership held in the eyes of the Jewish people. The leadership also felt Jesus's ministry was a threat to the tenuous relationship the Jewish people, and especially the Jewish leadership, had with their Roman occupiers. But at the same time that same leadership threatened Pontius Pilate that they would inform Rome that he was allowing a King to be established in Israel, which was enough of a threat to Pilates position with Rome that he went along with the Jewish leadership. There have been those "claiming" Christianity that place the guilt of crucifying Jesus on the Jews and or the Romans. This position is totally in error and is a lie from the pit of Hell. Who put Jesus on that cross? Every human-being from Adam to the end of time. All of us are guilty and need the salvation and redemption that He provided by His "voluntary" sacrifice on the Cross. No one man, no one people and no one generation is guilty. We all are. Well that's is my understanding of the misinformation that appears in "Christian" circles and what I have been taught since childhood. May the Lord open all peoples eyes to His truth. Read more: theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/4153/jews-believe-broke-word-regarding#ixzz4WXfuHX32 |
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Post by alon on Jan 22, 2017 20:34:42 GMT -8
Dan, I totally agree with the scriptures you've quoted. However all these scriptures were after Jesus started his ministry. To better clarify my question; Is there any recorded historical or scriptural evidence that the Jewish leadership, and or the Jewish people in general, believed that God had broken His word regarding the "scepter departing Judah? I'm specifically thinking of a time frame close to the birth of Christ.
Much of the history we get from Rav S is based in other writings, such as the Talmud. But I don't ave all his references. For example, we know the Sadducees were in control of the Sanhedrin during Yeshua's lifetime, that they were quislings of Rome and that they and Rome had brutally and cruelly murdered thousands of Pharisees from these writings. Just one more reason the Jews wanted to rid themselves of Roman rule. And they wanted a warrior king to lead them! We also know there were several false Messiah's during and after Yeshua's time here. You were trained better than most Christians were. But still, Christianity as a whole takes advantage of men's ability to compartmentalize information. Every time you read or heard the phrase "The Jews rejected Jesus," your opinion was subtly formed against them. Now, those better trained may be able to overcome this subtle anti-Semitic attack. I've said before on this forum that I learned just as you did while sitting upright for what seemed at the time an eternity on those hard Baptist pews, listening to my dad preach. But I've also talked to people across denominational lines, and everyone was not so well informed.
My wife was raised Jewish, and she has had several really off the wall comments made by unthinking Christians in various churches we've attended. The best (and I've probably already told this one, but ...) came from a friend who was cutting her hair. She said "But I thought we were supposed to hate the Jews!" Really? I'm with you; so she hates Yeshua, the shaliachim, the talmedim, and the entire doggone first century church? Not to mention thousands today who believe- including my wife sitting right there. And millions more we are supposed to be reaching. Yeah, well, what do you say to such ignorance? But this woman was not stupid, and she had been raised in the church. Her and her husband were devoutly Assemblies. And they are one of the more tolerant denominations where Jews and Meshiachim are concerned.
Anyhow, let us know what (if anything) you find on this. 'll dig around a bit too. Could be enlightening. Meantime, those quotes from after Yeshua's time were meant to show that most of Yisro'el did not take the view Missler stated. In fact, to take that view is to turn your back on God; which clearly most even of those not accepting Yeshua did not do. They fought and died in several rebellions, two of them major rebellions rather than bend their knee to Rome. And the second one (bar Kochba's) they almost won despite having driven the Nots'rim away. Two Legions were decimaed to the point they were permanently disbanded. That's a lot of devout Jews.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Jan 22, 2017 22:04:04 GMT -8
Got it!
A Christmas Promise:
The Scepter of Judah
by Chuck Missler
One of the most familiar "Christmas Card" verses is found in Isaiah:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the Throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. Isaiah 9:6-7
As we mentioned earlier, David's throne didn't exist in Jesus' day. Jeconaiah was the last of David's line to sit on the throne. (Remember the blood curse on his line.1 This curse was "side-stepped" by the virgin birth. Mary was of the line of David, but through Nathan, not Solomon.2 The legal line descended through Solomon to Joseph, but not the blood curse.)
There is another remarkable prophecy-in Genesis-concerning the rulership of the tribe of Judah.
The Scepter of Judah
In Genesis 49, Jacob prophesied over each of the twelve tribes. Among these seemingly cryptic riddles, the best known one concerns the royal tribe of Judah:
The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. Genesis 49:10
The term "scepter" refers to their tribal identity and the right to apply and enforce Mosaic Laws and adjudicate capital offenses: jus gladii. It is significant that even during their 70-year Babylonian captivity (606-537 B.C.) the tribes retained their tribal identity.3 They retained their own logistics, judges, etc.4
The term "Shiloh" was understood by the early rabbis and Talmudic authorities as referring to the Messiah.5
The Scepter Departs
In 6-7 A.D., King Herod's son and successor, Herod Archelaus, was dethroned and banished to Vienna, a city in Gaul. Archelaus was the second son of Herod the Great.6 The older son, Herod Antipater, was murdered by Herod the Great, along with other family members. (It was quipped at the time that it was safer to be a dog in that household than a member of the family!) Archelaus' mother was a Samaritan (1/4 or less of Jewish blood) and was never accepted. After the death of Herod (4 B.C.?), Archelaus had been placed over Judea as "Entharch" by Caesar Augustus. Broadly rejected, he was removed in 6-7 A.D.
He was replaced by a Roman procurator named Caponius. The legal power of the Sanhedrin was immediately restricted and the adjudication of capital cases was lost. This was normal Roman policy.7 This transfer of power is mentioned in the Talmud8 and by Josephus:
After the death of the procurator Festus, when Albinus was about to succeed him, the high priest Ananius considered it a favorable opportunity to assemble the Sanhedrin. He therefore caused James, the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, and several others, to appear before this hastily assembled council, and pronounced upon them the sentence of death by stoning. All the wise men and strict observers of the law who were at Jerusalem expressed their disapprobation of this act... Some even went to Albinus himself, who had departed to Alexandria, to bring this breach of the law under his observation, and to inform him that Aranius had acted illegally in assembling the Sanhedrin without the Roman authority.9
This remarkable passage not only mentions Jesus and His brother James as historical figures, it also underscores that the authority of the Sanhedrin had already been passed to the Romans.
This begs some additional commentary.
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Post by alon on Jan 22, 2017 22:24:02 GMT -8
The throne did not exist, but the line did; and the Jews knew who was their Crown Prince. The reason Yeshua was challenged and questioned so much during His life and ministry is not because the Jews were mean spirited. Far from it. It was their duty to challenge anyone who might be the Anointed One, haMoshiach. And this guy Yeshua was THE most likely candidate! Now it is true that many of them were. The Sanhedrin was controlled by the Sadducees, and they wanted no Pharisee to hold the title of haMoshiach. But I'll tell you, we've had people come here and want to be acknowleged as mere prophets, and I have challenged every one of them, even before I became moderator. How much moreso would the duty be for the Sanhedrin to challenge someone with a claim to be the Messiah?
I have to agree with Missler's assessment and assertion here. And his references are from Josephus and the Talmud, but he doesn't give specifics. However I don't see where he developed the idea that the Jews thought God had lied. Certainly the Sadducees would have felt abandoned by HaShem as well they should), but to say they thought God had not kept His word is a stretch. Some maybe, but you'd need evidence to even guess at a percentage.
Like I said, Missler is one of the better ones. But he is still hampered by his Christian training.
Dan C
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Post by rjcjid on Jan 23, 2017 5:35:35 GMT -8
I have sent an email to Chuck Missler. The site says that they are swamped with questions so it may take a while to get an answer. My heart hurts for your wife and Israel in geaneral. Satan's lie has has been effective in blinding so many. I pray that their eyes will be opened to the Truth and their hearts and words be changed to blessings. Shalom my brother.
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Post by rjcjid on Jan 24, 2017 5:23:49 GMT -8
Good morning Dan,
I see that I need to refresh my screen to receive new posts before I add new posts. :-) I did get a reply from KHouse(Missler).
Regarding Missler's specifics - I don't see on your copy of his study the footnotes for his references. Is that what you were meaning about specifics? I've added the footnote references below.
"He was replaced by a Roman procurator named Caponius. The legal power of the Sanhedrin was immediately restricted and the adjudication of capital cases was lost. This was normal Roman policy.16" footnote 16 reads - This transfer of power was recorded by Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Bk 2, Ch. 8. Also, The Jerusalem Talmud, Sanhedrin, folio 24.
"When the members of the Sanhedrin found themselves deprived of their right over life and death, they covered their heads with ashes and their bodies with sackcloth, and bemoaned, "Woe unto us for the scepter has departed from Judah and the Messiah has not come!"18" footnote 18 reads - Babylonian Talmud, Chapter 4, folio 37; also, Augustin Lemann, Jesus before the Sanhedrin, 1886, translated by Julius Magath, NL#0239683, Library of Congress #15-24973.
Thank you for the clear explanation on the Royal line of David through Mary.
"The reason Yeshua was challenged and questioned so much during His life and ministry is not because the Jews were mean spirited. Far from it. It was their duty to challenge anyone who might be the Anointed One, haMoshiach." Yes it was their duty to verify Jesus's claims and as it says in 1John 4:1 "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
If you don't have a copy of Missler's study with the footnotes I can send it to you if you like.
Ron
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Post by alon on Jan 24, 2017 15:09:48 GMT -8
Thanks for the information. And yes, you can email it to me if you like. Or place a link here- Missler usually doesn't go too far off the reservation to run afoul of the rues. So use your judgement and post it if you think it's ok.
Remember that the Talmud, especially if from the Gemara written after the Mishna was codified, could and often was slanted against Yeshua and the Nots'rim. Also it makes it sound like the whole Sanhedrin had this view. It was probably mostly the Sadducees who did. However many in the religious leadership did believe in Yeshua:
Acts 6:7 (ESV) And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith.
We have to be careful whenever we see statements which either say "all" or imply it, as it may only many most, or even many. This is true in "all" western languages, but especially true of Greek, and Hebrew as well. So when it says "When the members of the Sanhedrin" it is doubtful they meant every member.
Dan C
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Post by rjcjid on Jan 25, 2017 5:15:22 GMT -8
"We have to be careful whenever we see statements which either say "all" or imply it, as it may only many most, or even many. This is true in "all" western languages, but especially true of Greek, and Hebrew as well. So when it says "When the members of the Sanhedrin" it is doubtful they meant every member." I agree. It's too easy to read words and meanings into something that was never intended.
"Remember that the Talmud, especially if from the Gemara written after the Mishna was codified, could and often was slanted against Yeshua and the Nots'rim. Also it makes it sound like the whole Sanhedrin had this view. It was probably mostly the Sadducees who did. However many in the religious leadership did believe in Yeshua:" These are things I know nothing of. Thanks for the insight.
Ron
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- there are 70 faces to 
