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Post by alon on Nov 23, 2016 19:22:09 GMT -8
Jimmie, you’ll like this!  But one of the things I often say that sets Meshiachim apart from Christianity and other religions is we pass everything through the fire time and again. This includes Chanukkah, which is the next feast (non-commanded) on the horizon. As most of you probably know, i do celebrate Chanukkah. However I have a book called “The  Calendar” in which the author, NB Willis, makes a good argument against celebrating Chanukkah. So my own methodology demands I look closely at this viewpoint and maybe even reconsider. So let's look at his thinking here (in a much abreviated format): I will refute this later when I have time. Meanwhile I’ll leave it up for discussion. Please note that when I do refute this I am not being at all disrespectful. Like our last commentator, there is much in this work that I admire and respect. He is extremely fair, giving a very good account of the argument FOR Chanukkah and the way it relates to Sukkot. So I hope to be as accommodating as I tackle these arguments against. And really, I'm not that sure what I'm going to say about all of this (though I have an idea about some of it). So who knows? I may add another post to my "Wrong" thread. Doubtful, but possible ... Meanwhile, what say you all to this? Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Nov 24, 2016 7:08:14 GMT -8
It is not enjoined upon us to keep this feast...if you can call it a feast, that is. Are there special dinners, a Shabbat? No, just the lighting of lights in commemoration of history. Not a bad thing, but not a religious thing either...more of a cultural remembrance, and I have a different culture.
Should I then light lights against the darkness of the longest night of the year, on the 21st of December? Or celebrate the Sun God of Mithras on the 25th? Nope, that's worshiping other gods.
Is lighting lights at this season only to celebrate the history of triumph over an enemy of Judaism, and the Jews?
I have no one to light lights for but myself, and I am wondering why I should bother. It seems to open up the celebration of the pagan festivals more than anything else since I am not Jewish.
It doesn't mean I will not put my candles out to light them for the 'season of light'. but it's more of a holiday tradition than anything at all. If you have family to share it with, and the traditions for your history, terrific! Enjoy it!
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Post by alon on Nov 24, 2016 11:22:35 GMT -8
It is unfortunate that the term "moed" was translated as 'feast,' as it means so much more than that. The moedim are the appointed times of Elohim. They were dress rehearsals for major events in history where God would interact with man. Chanukkah is not one of the moedim given in . It was a much later commemoration of a major event in Jewish history; an event which by the way God did use to interact with us. Look under the Moedims section here and there are only a couple of threads besides this one. I did a thread showing that Yeshua was in all probability conceived on Chanukkah. So the Light of the World came into the world on the Festival of Lights! True. No, it was a delayed Sukkot celebration. It also celebrated the miraculous Hand of God in their victory. But as men are wont to do, some Rabbi made up a tradition of the miracle of the lamp, which seems to have somewhat overshadowed the real reasons. Well, it's fun. And when you say the prayers while lighting the candles, you are not alone. Your El is there with you. And I keep telling you that you are adopted by a Jewish carpenters Son ...  Then you are missing the meaning and the joy of doing it. And as Hashem asked the prophet Zechariah, who are you doing this for? Me (God) or you? (paraphrased from Zech 7:4-6) Dan C |
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Post by Questor on Nov 24, 2016 16:22:40 GMT -8
It is unfortunate that the term "moed" was translated as 'feast,' as it means so much more than that. The moedim are the appointed times of Elohim. They were dress rehearsals for major events in history where God would interact with man. Chanukkah is not one of the moedim given in . It was a much later commemoration of a major event in Jewish history; an event which by the way God did use to interact with us. Look under the Moedims section here and there are only a couple of threads besides this one. I did a thread showing that Yeshua was in all probability conceived on Chanukkah. So the Light of the World came into the world on the Festival of Lights! True. No, it was a delayed Sukkot celebration. It also celebrated the miraculous Hand of God in their victory. But as men are wont to do, some Rabbi made up a tradition of the miracle of the lamp, which seems to have somewhat overshadowed the real reasons.[/quote] Again...a link? You are finding the coolest stuff...where at?
Well, it's fun. And when you say the prayers while lighting the candles, you are not alone. Your El is there with you. And I keep telling you that you are adopted by a Jewish carpenters Son ... [/quote] That part I take great pleasure and pride in, and it mostly keeps me alive as well!
Then you are missing the meaning and the joy of doing it. And as Hashem asked the prophet Zechariah, who are you doing this for? Me (God) or you? (paraphrased from Zech 7:4-6) Dan C[/quote] Since it was not given of YHVH to say the prayers, it makes me feel a bit odd to say them at all!
It doesn't help that I don't have the prayers, either!!! 
[/quote] |
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Post by alon on Nov 24, 2016 17:11:25 GMT -8
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Post by alon on Nov 25, 2016 13:05:08 GMT -8
Deuteronomy 4:1-2 (ESV) “And now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the rules that I am teaching you, and do them, that you may live, and go in and take possession of the land that the Lord, the God of your fathers, is giving you. You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.The first argument against observance is easily dealt with just by reading the scriptural reference he gave. This clearly speaks only of , and says "listen, then do." Afterwards it tells us not to add to or take away from the "word," which at the time was ! There was no proscription against later religious writings or traditions. Rav S says that the only "cannon" is . This I think is one reason why. Here Moshe clearly articulates the preeminence of as the foundation of the Jewish faith. There can be other writings; and we can collect them into a book. But if any part disagrees with , the entire document is invalid as scripture. Many different denominations have their own "cannon's"; their own collection of religious writings which they deem sacred. But in all of the Jewish and Christian bibles is pretty much a constant. Some have messed with it a bit; like the Catholics removing the commandment against idolitry. But it still holds its place as the first five books of the Christian Bible(s) and the Jewish Tenach, Most Meshiachim see as a base against which all other scripture must be compared and found in agreement with. The sixty six books of the Christian Bible, when translated and understood correctly, in no way contradict . We also look at other writings, some of which also completely agree with . The book of Judith is a good example of this. We can learn a lot about customs of the time from this book. However it was thought the moral lessons were better taught in other books, so it wasn't included in our Bibles. But I digress: While is preeminent, our base, and we are told not to change it, it was not the last interaction of Elohim with mankind or the Jewish people- things which were recorded by Godly men and preserved as scripture. Nor was it the last time Hashem gave revelations or the power of His Ruach, again recorded and set down as scripture. Traditions come, go, and some stay but may undergo transformations. But I see nothing in that scriptural reference to say nay to any of this. And the Ruach HaKodesh blessed Chanukkah when Miriam was impregnated with HaMoshich, Yeshua. Dan C
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Post by garrett on Nov 25, 2016 17:41:23 GMT -8
Deuteronomy 4:1-2 (ESV) “And now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the rules that I am teaching you, and do them, that you may live, and go in and take possession of the land that the Lord, the God of your fathers, is giving you. You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.The first argument against observance is easily dealt with just by reading the scriptural reference he gave. This clearly speaks only of , and says "listen, then do." Afterwards it tells us not to add to or take away from the "word," which at the time was ! There was no proscription against later religious writings or traditions. Rav S says that the only "cannon" is . This I think is one reason why. Here Moshe clearly articulates the preeminence of as the foundation of the Jewish faith. There can be other writings; and we can collect them into a book. But if any part disagrees with , the entire document is invalid as scripture. Many different denominations have their own "cannon's"; their own collection of religious writings which they deem sacred. But in all of the Jewish and Christian bibles is pretty much a constant. Some have messed with it a bit; like the Catholics removing the commandment against idolitry. But it still holds its place as the first five books of the Christian Bible(s) and the Jewish Tenach, Most Meshiachim see as a base against which all other scripture must be compared and found in agreement with. The sixty six books of the Christian Bible, when translated and understood correctly, in no way contradict . We also look at other writings, some of which also completely agree with . The book of Judith is a good example of this. We can learn a lot about customs of the time from this book. However it was thought the moral lessons were better taught in other books, so it wasn't included in our Bibles. But I digress: While is preeminent, our base, and we are told not to change it, it was not the last interaction of Elohim with mankind or the Jewish people- things which were recorded by Godly men and preserved as scripture. Nor was it the last time Hashem gave revelations or the power of His Ruach, again recorded and set down as scripture. Traditions come, go, and some stay but may undergo transformations. But I see nothing in that scriptural reference to say nay to any of this. And the Ruach HaKodesh blessed Chanukkah when Miriam was impregnated with HaMoshich, Yeshua. Dan C This is interesting. I can think of another interesting reason for being "pro" Chanukkah is the fact that the Beit HaMikdash (Temple) stood on Mount Moriah, in what is Jerusalem. This is the often believed location of the creation of Adam as well as the mount where Abraham took his son Isaac to be bound and placed as a "sacrifice". Also, the ark came to its final resting place in the Temple on Mount Moriah. It's no surprise to me that Yeshua (who claimed of himself, "I AM") would be in Solomon's portico during the time of dedication. Yeshua was the in the lineage of Solomon, the son of David. ....And in the Temple stood the Menorah, which was supposed to remain perpetually lit so that the light could be seen from the windows outside...and last but not least it was a place built for HaShem to inhabit. So many profound things centered around that specific location. It's pretty safe to say that a miracle occurred there (when the oil burned for so long) and it's something to take notice of. This Temple was reclaimed from the hellenistic Greco-Syrians, who were sacrificing swine there - among the Jews. This unclean animal being offered up, it's bad. But we learn that during Yeshua's earthly time he permitted fallen angels/demons to only inhabit a herd of swine, who then ran off a cliff and into the sea. Plus the Greco-Syrian's under Antioch Epiphanes destroyed scrolls of the , abolished Sabbath keeping, kosher and circumcision. It seems like the pervasiveness of this location in scripture, including the writings about the Temple in Revelation, almost point to the legitimacy of all eyes in that direction. It's the epicenter. That being said, the miracle of the oil is cause for celebration. Lastly, consider the mourning of the destruction of the second Temple and Yeshua's foretelling of its destruction. For 2,000 years of dispersion, so many still wait to see it rebuilt. I think these reasons are cause to consider the holiday of re-dedicating the Temple...what do you think? garrett |
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Post by alon on Nov 25, 2016 22:34:08 GMT -8
It's no surprise to me that Yeshua (who claimed of himself, "I AM") would be in Solomon's portico during the time of dedication. Yeshua was the in the lineage of Solomon, the son of David. alon: Good observation! And the Temple was tied to feast of Sukkot in many ways. One of them was that both Temples were dedicated on Sukkot. That is why they wanted so badly to celebrate Sukkot instead of waiting!....And in the Temple stood the Menorah, which was supposed to remain perpetually lit so that the light could be seen from the windows outside...and last but not least it was a place built for HaShem to inhabit. alon: Exactly! And Sukkot is the celebration of God "tabernacling" with us!So many profound things centered around that specific location. It's pretty safe to say that a miracle occurred there (when the oil burned for so long) and it's something to take notice of. This Temple was reclaimed from the hellenistic Greco-Syrians, who were sacrificing swine there - among the Jews. This unclean animal being offered up, it's bad. But we learn that during Yeshua's earthly time he permitted fallen angels/demons to only inhabit a herd of swine, who then ran off a cliff and into the sea. Plus the Greco-Syrian's under Antioch Epiphanes destroyed scrolls of the , abolished Sabbath keeping, kosher and circumcision. alon: Yes, it is recorded in 1 Maccabees that they had to purify the Temple and build a new altar, among other things. However the miracle of the oil is not recorded there. I don't have the reference handy, but that was added to the Talmud some 600 years later. So I'm not so sure ... . I'm not sure why the story was put there either. It may have been an object lesson of sorts. But it has taken on a life of its own, and that is what everyone thinks we celebrate is "The Miracle of the Oil." But I say the real miracle is that a feast day declared by man allowed the Light of the World to come into the world on that day, and to be born on the very feast day which it shadowed! Moreover the story of the oil was told by a Rabbi who was not thinking of Yeshua. Now oil represents the Ruach Hakodesh in scripture, and it was this "oil" that brought the Light to Miriam's womb! These are things man couldn't make up- the true miracle of Chanukka!It seems like the pervasiveness of this location in scripture, including the writings about the Temple in Revelation, almost point to the legitimacy of all eyes in that direction. It's the epicenter. That being said, the miracle of the oil is cause for celebration.
alon: All Biblical history centers around Yerushalayim. It is the mountain chosen by our creator and God.
Lastly, consider the mourning of the destruction of the second Temple and Yeshua's foretelling of its destruction. For 2,000 years of dispersion, so many still wait to see it rebuilt. I think these reasons are cause to consider the holiday of re-dedicating the Temple...what do you think? alon: I obviously agree. And I do think we should keep this feast, but only with the true understanding being outlined here. As to those who choose not to, I understand. Some say if it's not in they won't keep it. Their choice, but I think they are missing out on something important. And I'm not the Chanukkah Chop, so ...  garrett edit: changed number of years later the story of the miracle of the oil was added to the Talmud. I had it as 300, but more reading showed it to be 600 yrs later. |
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Post by alon on Nov 25, 2016 23:23:50 GMT -8
So let's go on to the next point: While I agree that men love to make up their own feast days, as long as they do not conflict with I see no problem. But our standard is the Bible, so was there ever a case where men made up their own feasts or remembrances? And if so, what did Elohim say about it? Zechariah 7:1-5 (NASB) In the fourth year of King Darius, the word of the Lord came to Zechariah on the fourth day of the ninth month, which is Chislev. Now the town of Bethel had sent Sharezer and Regemmelech and their men to seek the favor of the Lord, speaking to the priests who belong to the house of the Lord of hosts, and to the prophets, saying, “Shall I weep in the fifth month and abstain, as I have done these many years?” Then the word of the Lord of hosts came to me, saying, “Say to all the people of the land and to the priests, ‘When you fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh months these seventy years, was it actually for Me that you fasted?The references here to the fifth and seventh months are traditional fast days; the 9th of Av commemorating the destruction of the Temple, and 3 Tishrei being the Fast of Gedaliah marking the end of Judean independence. The rest of the prophet’s reply, speaking for Elohim, was a repetition of what He always says- be honest and fair and take care of each other. Rebuilding the Temple was a nice touch- Elohim could visit, sacrifices could resume, but “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.” (Psalm 51:17NASB) As alwys with God, it is the heart condition which counts first. He did not chastise them for their observances, but for the spiritual state of their hearts in all their observances. So as long as we are not replacing the Feasts of the Lord with our own, or otherwise going against , I see nothing here that says it is wrong to observe a feast “declared by men.” Yesterday, for example, was Thanksgiving here in the States. And trust me, I feasted! However Willis’ scripture reference here was of men declaring a feast before an idol. The idol was the problem- that and their lack of faith thinking Moshe was gone and they had no way to contact Elohim, so they did as they had seen the Egyptians do. They built an idol which was supposed to attract the deity. It would also serve ameliorate the Egyptians anger and to lead them back to bondage. God definately had a problem with that! Dan C |
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Post by alon on Nov 26, 2016 3:33:27 GMT -8
Somewhat more than that! In the scripture reference below we are not to adopt anything from the pagans! I know, I am helping Willis’ case; but if we are after the truth we have to face up to what is said: Elohim does not copy ha’satan; ha’satan copies Elohim! And it sounds to me like He doesn’t want His people copying the adversaries’ people either! So am I capitulating here? No, just looking at ALL the evidence. I don’t see in the book of Maccabees where this is recorded anywhere they look to copy paganism. They just celebrated their victory, the rededication of the Temple and a delayed Sukkot. Sukkot was and is a very festive feast. Most sukkoth are decorated, and today many have lights. I am sure they used what light they had then as well. So lights were not the focus at the time, and keeping the Menorah lit, which they were supposed to do all the time anyhow, doesn’t seem to be the focus of their feast either. Now of course we have the Miraculous Lamp legend and electric lights; and much like Christmas the real meaning is lost to myth and legend and the nature of men. So I will give Willis that we ain’t doin’ it right. And like the previous post said, it’s the heart condition that counts. So I am advocating that we look to the real reason for the season and learn and understand the true miracles done here and celebrate those instead of a myth. Well, because Willis got it wrong here. The feast was not originally to commemorate a lamp. It was a delayed Sukkot celebrating the rededication of the Temple. And the Ruach HaKodesh, the very Spirit of God blessed this time in a way unequaled until the return of that same Messiah He brought us then at some later date.
God tells us all through and indeed all scripture how He wants us to worship Him. He obviously was not saying here that there can be no more scripture or traditions, because we know there were. But whatever we do must agree with . Remember in Leviticus 10, when Nadav and Avihu offered strange fire before the Lord, they were themselves consumed by fire from heaven. We need to get it right, folks! The story of the lamp may be instructive in some ways, and the "light" aspect of this feast day did play prophetically into God's plan. But a lit candelabra is NOT the reason for this feast- then, or now. We rebuke Christians for worshiping in front of an Asher Pole and all their pagan customs during Christmas. But many of us, knowingly or not, do similar things if the bright lights and a mythical miracle is all we celebrate. These shouldn't even be on our radar as we each light our Chanukkiah. The victory of God's army and the coming of the Light of the World are what Meshiachim should be focused on. And as we think of the rededication of the Temple, we should rededicate ourselves to YHVH our God. Willis ain't all wrong. I think he went a little too far; but I bet if we were talking we'd have more to agree on than to disagree. Dan C |
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Post by alon on Nov 27, 2016 8:18:53 GMT -8
OK, last instalment:
Then that would beg the question, why did He stay on the three months from Sukkot to Chanukkah? Look, all the arguments concerning this one scriptural reference, both pro and con, are inductive arguments. These are in a notably weak class of argument and generally do not support a definitive resolution. I alluded to this in another thread: You (and me too) should probably review the post referenced above before Chanukkah comes upon us; and certainly if you are undecided about the observance of Chanukkah. Me, I need all the reminders I can get of just Who I serve, how mighty and awesome He really is! I fight my evil inclination (usually translated as the flesh) all the time! So those little reminders which, while traditional, do not violate and help keep me honest … or at least make me stop, think, and quit whatever I was thinking or doing. And the big reminders, like knowing I will be standing before Elohim this evening saying prayers which proclaim my sanctification- these really help keep me on the right track. None of this is for God in the sense He needs it. WE are the ones who need help! But it pleases Him when we do these things with the right heart. And yes, I am thankful for people like Mr. Willis whose writings are very fair and informative; but who challenge us to look hard at what we do and why we do it. It is good to ask if we are right in even keeping these feasts from time to time. It strengthens our faith, and more than that as Meshiachim we WANT to know if we are wrong! So my compliments and thanks to Mr. Willis, who in all likelihood will never see this. He’s not a Christian. I’m not sure which, but he is either Hebrew Roots or Messianic. Regardless, he is a knowledgeable author who has done us a great service. Regardless, I would recommend his book, “The Calendar” to anyone interested in the feasts- his negative conclusions about Chanukkah and Purim aside. I paraphrased his arguments for brevities sake, and I hope I did them justice. If not, I apologize to you and to him. As always, your comments and insights are welcome. Tell us whether or not you intend to keep this feast, and if so, how? Comment on what is said, and if you have an opposing or different view let’s hear it. Who knows, you may force me to post again in my “I Found Out I Was Wrong” thread. Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Nov 28, 2016 6:17:57 GMT -8
Gen 32:32 Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank. Isn't this a tradition recorded in the ? Tradition Vs. the Law of God. Amos 5:21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. Amos 8:10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day. Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Matthew 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; |
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Post by alon on Nov 28, 2016 10:33:36 GMT -8
I can only assume you mean that this is what Rav Sh’ul was speaking of when he said hold to the traditions we have taught you. Fair point. But traditions have occurred all through history. And many of them were religious, such as the Moses Seat. Remember when Yeshua said the Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses Seat- do what they tell you when they sit there (Mat 23:2). This had nothing to do with traditions. God was speaking of things He commanded that they did with wrong heart motivation. This group speaks of traditions which are counter to, subvert or replace commandments. We can agree that those traditions are more than just bad; they are evil! Christmas and Easter are wrong because they are entirely pagan and were meant to replace the Feasts of the Lord (which they did in Christianity). But Thanksgiving is good, especially when we remember that we are giving thanks to the Lord. We celebrate a major event in our countries heritage, thanking Elohim that we were born free and for all the blessings He gave us. Now, should we forget and not give thanks any other day, saying “We gave thanks then,” that would make it an evil day in the sight of God. But I doubt anyone here is like that. Very good advice to remember. Not all traditions are good or acceptable to the Lord. We were given the ability to discern, and must always use it in spiritual matters. All you say here is good advice, and things we all should consider when making the choice in celebrating any day not in . Chanukkah, Thanksgiving, and need I list Easter and Christmas? But I don’t see anything definitive saying not to keep other traditions, including feasts. Dan C |
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Post by alon on Nov 28, 2016 10:57:13 GMT -8
jimmies post got me to thinking ... let's revisit something Willis said: So if we do decide to keep Chanukkah, how do we keep it? It is known as the "Festival of Lights," and bright decorations are the norm in Israel, as with many others. But I live in an area where nights are long this time of year, so bright Christmas decorations are very common. Willis was right that men do like to celebrate light in the dark days of Winter. I don't think that in itself is bad. but let's think about appearances: if I put lights all over my house, that could (and probably would) look like I am celebrating Christmas. Even if I put a menorah, a scroll and a Magen Dovid on my lawn, few if any would make the connection. I could probably put "Happy Hanuka" (note the easy spelling for the uninformed masses) and they'd just drive by shouting "Happy Kwanza" or some such foolishness, never making the connection. So probably I should (and do) refrain from a display of lights. I still light my Chanukkiah, still say my prayers, and still try to mind the condition of my heart (the toughest job of all, but most rewarding). This year is particularly bad because the first day of Chanukkah is basically Christmas (evening of the 24th, and day of the 25th). It can vary up to a month, but since Christmas seems to start earlier each year the problem still exists. I guess my point is, we can make a good thing bad very easily. And this applies to the commanded feasts as well. And sometimes this can vary from place to place due to local traditions. In Israel for example, I don't think anyone would think you are just another pagan celebrating some disagreeable feast if you put up lights. But where I live, better not to join in that particular tradition of donating to the Public Utility District. Just more food for thought. Dan C |
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Post by garrett on Nov 29, 2016 18:29:56 GMT -8
It's no surprise to me that Yeshua (who claimed of himself, "I AM") would be in Solomon's portico during the time of dedication. Yeshua was the in the lineage of Solomon, the son of David. alon: Good observation! And the Temple was tied to feast of Sukkot in many ways. One of them was that both Temples were dedicated on Sukkot. That is why they wanted so badly to celebrate Sukkot instead of waiting!....And in the Temple stood the Menorah, which was supposed to remain perpetually lit so that the light could be seen from the windows outside...and last but not least it was a place built for HaShem to inhabit. alon: Exactly! And Sukkot is the celebration of God "tabernacling" with us!So many profound things centered around that specific location. It's pretty safe to say that a miracle occurred there (when the oil burned for so long) and it's something to take notice of. This Temple was reclaimed from the hellenistic Greco-Syrians, who were sacrificing swine there - among the Jews. This unclean animal being offered up, it's bad. But we learn that during Yeshua's earthly time he permitted fallen angels/demons to only inhabit a herd of swine, who then ran off a cliff and into the sea. Plus the Greco-Syrian's under Antioch Epiphanes destroyed scrolls of the , abolished Sabbath keeping, kosher and circumcision. alon: Yes, it is recorded in 1 Maccabees that they had to purify the Temple and build a new altar, among other things. However the miracle of the oil is not recorded there. I don't have the reference handy, but that was added to the Talmud some 300 years later. So I'm not so sure ... . I'm not sure why the story was put there either. It may have been an object lesson of sorts. But it has taken on a life of its own, and that is what everyone thinks we celebrate is "The Miracle of the Oil." But I say the real miracle is that a feast day declared by man allowed the Light of the World to come into the world on that day, and to be born on the very feast day which it shadowed! Moreover the story of the oil was told by a Rabbi who was not thinking of Yeshua. Now oil represents the Ruach Hakodesh in scripture, and it was this "oil" that brought the Light to Miriam's womb! These are things man couldn't make up- the true miracle of Chanukka!It seems like the pervasiveness of this location in scripture, including the writings about the Temple in Revelation, almost point to the legitimacy of all eyes in that direction. It's the epicenter. That being said, the miracle of the oil is cause for celebration.
alon: All Biblical history centers around Yerushalayim. It is the mountain chosen by our creator and God.
Lastly, consider the mourning of the destruction of the second Temple and Yeshua's foretelling of its destruction. For 2,000 years of dispersion, so many still wait to see it rebuilt. I think these reasons are cause to consider the holiday of re-dedicating the Temple...what do you think? alon: I obviously agree. And I do think we should keep this feast, but only with the true understanding being outlined here. As to those who choose not to, I understand. Some say if it's not in they won't keep it. Their choice, but I think they are missing out on something important. And I'm not the Chanukkah Chop, so ... garrett I always need to be reminded that the Temple was dedicated, both times, on Sukkot. This is a real game changer, especially with respect to them wanting to delay the Feast of Sukkot until the Temple and its components were satisfactory. That's a good reminder. Then it becomes all about the biggest reasons for justifying Chanukka, in addition to the Ruach and the Moshiach. Thanks for the info. This "man-declared" feast would even less likely resemble a man-made day. Instead it's clearly about the time when G-d once Tabernacled with us and that He will do so again. Sounds pretty good as far as I can tell... |
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But one of the things I often say that sets Meshiachim apart from Christianity and other religions is we pass everything through the fire time and again. This includes Chanukkah, which is the next feast (non-commanded) on the horizon. As most of you probably know, i do celebrate Chanukkah. However I have a book called “The 
Calendar” in which the author, NB Willis, makes a good argument against celebrating Chanukkah. So my own methodology demands I look closely at this viewpoint and maybe even reconsider. So let's look at his thinking here (in a much abreviated format):
