1.Tim 2:9-15 Women's position and situation.

[jedidja87]

So this is  the verse, what i am thinking, when Paul said that i do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, so what does it means and does it Bible say that women should not teach other's spiritually? Can we draw that conclusion? So there is also passage from amplied version. I have heard also that this means just relationship between man and wife.  But for me it is very hard to understand. I have just received very good spiritual teaching for women too,which has been very biblical.


NASB 1.Tim 2:
9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, [g]modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first [h]created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be [j]preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with [k]self-restraint.

Timothy 2:9-15Amplified Bible (AMP)
Women Instructed
9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves modestly and appropriately and discreetly in proper clothing, not with [elaborately] braided hair and gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but instead adorned by good deeds [helping others], as is proper for women who profess to worship God. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with all submissiveness. 12 I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet [in the congregation]. 13 For Adam was formed first [by God from the earth], then Eve; 14 and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was led astray and fell into sin. 15 But women will be [c]preserved (saved) through [the pain and dangers of] the bearing of children [d]if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self-control and discretion.

[alon]

It means what it says; women do not exercise spiritual authority over men. This is how God ordered things from creation, thus the reference to Adam and Chava. Women may teach other women as well as children. But normally they should not teach a class with men. Is this absolute? That can be a tough call. There are instances where there are no knowledgeable men but there are knowledgeable women in the class. And there is also the case where men abdicate their authority (read that shirk their responsibility) and women step in to fill the void. So I'd say no, this is not an absolute statement but more a guiding principle. However if you are going to violate a Biblical principle, I'd say you better make doggone sure you are right, and there is no other way.

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

This is problematic for me. If I follow it through it turns out that much of what I say on here I shouldn't. It seems to be summed up with be quiet, listen, and do what you're told. Meanwhile, what is the point of G-d giving me anything worth saying if I don't share it and I have no congregation but this one.

I look at Abraham and Sarah for one example. Sarah told Abraham to throw out Hagar and Ishmael when she saw Ishmael was a threat to Isaac. Was that an act of authority or submissiveness keeping in mind that G-d backed her up? How do we reconcile that? Here's my thinking. Abraham's emotions had too much authority over him for him to see what was happening and make the right decision. Therefore, G-d influenced him through his wife. So the primary issue is what authority did Abraham ultimately submit to in this instance; his emotions, his wife, or G-d. Ultimately, it was G-d but G-d used the influence of a woman.

Meanwhile, Sarah didn't just take it upon herself to make the choice and be the one to throw them out. Sarah had enough regard for Abraham's role to leave him the power and the decision. The outcome was that Sarah caused Abraham to turn to G-d's authority. So now things are back in order. Now the question is, why did G-d choose a woman to be the one to influence and speak up to direct Abraham back to G-d's authority on the issue? I don't know exactly, but the example gives me some framework I think.

In an ideal world, the man would be perfectly submitted to G-d according to His authority, and the wife wouldn't have to do anything but trust and follow him because the man is ultimately just exercising the authority and direction of G-d on the family. This isn't and ideal world though, so how G-d moves may sometimes depend on who is available that is most submissive to Him on any given issue. If so a completely submissive woman can exert a lot of influence without exercising authority as she can point a believing man back to G-d's authority. In such instances, it's  not so much about the authority between man and woman, but more about the authority between man and G-d. In G-d's plan and way, I think the most obvious indication of a man's state in submitting himself to G-d  is the state of his family (or whatever group of people he is responsible for). Maybe that's why Sarah was the one who spoke up according to G-d's will; to remind Abraham of his G-d given call and obligation. Also, though she advised and influence, it wasn't to tell Abraham not to exercise his authority but rather to act on it.

My favorite example of a woman who knew how to exert influence and act within the confines of being a woman is the woman who anointed Yeshua before His crucifixion. She clearly knew more than any of the men in the room about who He was and what was going on. She didn't even say anything, and she also didn't ask permission. She just took it upon herself to grab Messiah's feet and anoint Him.  I love her submissive boldness,  and the way her confidence in Yeshua was expressed in it.  Again I think the issue is not about authority between man and woman, but authority between man and G-d. Anyone who is in a position of complete submission to the authority of G-d will exert a positive influence that blesses those around them, but in a way that only glorifies G-d. If the goal could just be complete submission to G-d for each individual in the body of Messiah I don't think we would find ourselves with any struggle between the role of men and a women because we would see it is all about how we serve him and help each other. 

[alon]

Nov 26, 2016 12:00:11 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

This is problematic for me. If I follow it through it turns out that much of what I say on here I shouldn't. It seems to be summed up with be quiet, listen, and do what you're told. Meanwhile, what is the point of G-d giving me anything worth saying if I don't share it and I have no congregation but this one.

I look at Abraham and Sarah for one example. Sarah told Abraham to throw out Hagar and Ishmael when she saw Ishmael was a threat to Isaac. Was that an act of authority or submissiveness keeping in mind that G-d backed her up? How do we reconcile that? Here's my thinking. Abraham's emotions had too much authority over him for him to see what was happening and make the right decision. Therefore, G-d influenced him through his wife. So the primary issue is what authority did Abraham ultimately submit to in this instance; his emotions, his wife, or G-d. Ultimately, it was G-d but G-d used the influence of a woman.

Meanwhile, Sarah didn't just take it upon herself to make the choice and be the one to throw them out. Sarah had enough regard for Abraham's role to leave him the power and the decision. The outcome was that Sarah caused Abraham to turn to G-d's authority. So now things are back in order. Now the question is, why did G-d choose a woman to be the one to influence and speak up to direct Abraham back to G-d's authority on the issue? I don't know exactly, but the example gives me some framework I think.

In an ideal world, the man would be perfectly submitted to G-d according to His authority, and the wife wouldn't have to do anything but trust and follow him because the man is ultimately just exercising the authority and direction of G-d on the family. This isn't and ideal world though, so how G-d moves may sometimes depend on who is available that is most submissive to Him on any given issue. If so a completely submissive woman can exert a lot of influence without exercising authority as she can point a believing man back to G-d's authority. In such instances, it's  not so much about the authority between man and woman, but more about the authority between man and G-d. In G-d's plan and way, I think the most obvious indication of a man's state in submitting himself to G-d  is the state of his family (or whatever group of people he is responsible for). Maybe that's why Sarah was the one who spoke up according to G-d's will; to remind Abraham of his G-d given call and obligation. Also, though she advised and influence, it wasn't to tell Abraham not to exercise his authority but rather to act on it.

My favorite example of a woman who knew how to exert influence and act within the confines of being a woman is the woman who anointed Yeshua before His crucifixion. She clearly knew more than any of the men in the room about who He was and what was going on. She didn't even say anything, and she also didn't ask permission. She just took it upon herself to grab Messiah's feet and anoint Him.  I love her submissive boldness,  and the way her confidence in Yeshua was expressed in it.  Again I think the issue is not about authority between man and woman, but authority between man and G-d. Anyone who is in a position of complete submission to the authority of G-d will exert a positive influence that blesses those around them, but in a way that only glorifies G-d. If the goal could just be complete submission to G-d for each individual in the body of Messiah I don't think we would find ourselves with any struggle between the role of men and a women because we would see it is all about how we serve him and help each other. 

This is a good example of what I mean. Elizabeth, you always have some good insights, looking at things in a way not many men would or could. Yet you never try to advance your position at others expense. I don't think silencing women completely is what Rav Sh'ul was saying. That statement was in a long d'rash about keeping order. Elohim gave Chava to Adam to complete him, and a wife has a lot of influence over her husband. A Godly married couple can be a force to be reckoned with, while when one or the other or both are ungodly, thee will be division and strife and a weak marriage. In the cases where both are ungodly but they bond closely you have a destructive influence within the community.

Women see things differently. They make connections and see alliances or motives that men do not. It is a fool who does not give close consideration when his wife says something is not right. In the case of Avraham ands Yitzack, Sarah was exhibiting another feminine trait, that of protecting her own children. Even though she was the initial cause of the whole mess, giving Hagar to Avraham to bear him a child, she later saw that child as a threat to her son's position. Elohim had to step in and clean up a mess, putting everyone on the right track. 

At any rate, I do not think women are to be silenced completely. But when they are causing a disturbance or trying to set themselves up in authority over the men then yes, they should be silenced. But men, if it is you who are causing the disruption then you should also be silenced by the other men. And women, you can exert your influence on your husbands, telling them "Sit down and shut up, you old coot! You're making a fool out of yourself." Or, well, something to that effect ...

Dan C

[messianic]

Just a quick thought on that. I think the issue with roles in the church is not one of superiority or inferiority. No, there is lots of work to be done by women. Titus 2 instructs them to train and teach other women. And for men to train other men. There is a big ministry right there. Then that passage in Timothy ends with that her "salvation" is in the raising up of children. The salvation there is not talking about salvation from going to hell, but from what you described, Elizabeth as not a worth. I know a woman back in the USA. She had 11 children. She and her husband brought them up in the fear of the Lord. Now these children are very fruitful. They are in ministry and she had a huge inpact on many many people. I think that children a huge ministry. Many times much bigger then a ministry with adults. We just need to look at things from an eternal perspective, not from a perspective of just right here on earth. I think many women will be far greater rewarded in heaven than their husbands.

Another topic related to all of this is headcoverings.