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Post by Questor on Oct 23, 2016 18:09:44 GMT -8
Sha'ul was talking about not being quarrelsome or devisive about this difficult question, but in the matter of genealogies I have a question.
Titus 3:9 (CJB)
9 But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, quarrels and fights about the  ; because they are worthless and futile.
If the congregation was talking about the genealogy of Yeshua, why would the question come up? Only Matthew, who could reasonably know Yeshua's forebears from Yeshua, James and Jude; and Luke, who was reporting on what he could find out and track down from people who knew the lines; even spoke about it, and described different family lines on top of that. They are probably both Yosef's and Miriam's, but why talk about it at all?
At the time, it was not possible to prove genealogies prior to the Babylonian Exile as the records were destroyed when the 1st Temple was, so why was the matter of such concern? Was the birth of Yeshua to a virgin, as opposed to a young woman, so crucial to Yeshua's credentials for Mashiach? Wasn't Yeshua's line being Davidic be of more concern?
I am not concerned with the Virgin Birth narrative, as I don't see it as a requirement for Mashiach, and often wonder why it was introduced at all, or was considered important, except to establish Yeshua as being supernaturally conceived in a time when such things were common in Greek and Persian Mythology.
Yeshua needed to be 100% human to be our Goel, and 100% divine as to his Nefesh in order to stand in for G-d in the divorce of Israel/death of former husband/resurrection of former husband/remarriage of Israel, and to live perfectly as a human. I don't question G-d's ability to do any of this, but merely wonder if it is a salvation issue, as it certainly drives Rabbinical Jews and many Secular Humanist insane to even talk about it.
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Post by alon on Oct 23, 2016 21:12:22 GMT -8
Sha'ul was talking about not being quarrelsome or devisive about this difficult question, but in the matter of genealogies I have a question.
Titus 3:9 (CJB)
9 But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, quarrels and fights about the ; because they are worthless and futile.
If the congregation was talking about the genealogy of Yeshua, why would the question come up? Only Matthew, who could reasonably know Yeshua's forebears from Yeshua, James and Jude; and Luke, who was reporting on what he could find out and track down from people who knew the lines; even spoke about it, and described different family lines on top of that. They are probably both Yosef's and Miriam's, but why talk about it at all?
At the time, it was not possible to prove genealogies prior to the Babylonian Exile as the records were destroyed when the 1st Temple was, so why was the matter of such concern? Was the birth of Yeshua to a virgin, as opposed to a young woman, so crucial to Yeshua's credentials for Mashiach? Wasn't Yeshua's line being Davidic be of more concern?
I am not concerned with the Virgin Birth narrative, as I don't see it as a requirement for Mashiach, and often wonder why it was introduced at all, or was considered important, except to establish Yeshua as being supernaturally conceived in a time when such things were common in Greek and Persian Mythology.
Yeshua needed to be 100% human to be our Goel, and 100% divine as to his Nefesh in order to stand in for G-d in the divorce of Israel/death of former husband/resurrection of former husband/remarriage of Israel, and to live perfectly as a human. I don't question G-d's ability to do any of this, but merely wonder if it is a salvation issue, as it certainly drives Rabbinical Jews and many Secular Humanist insane to even talk about it.
You ask the simplest doggone questions ... (this could take a while  )
Titus 3:9 isn't saying genealogies are not important. Obviously they are, for many reasons. Inheritance and other legal rights were dependent on them. It is addressing dissention within the body of believers based on petty arguments over who is more important.
The geneology of Yeshua is however of extreme importance. We need to know who Yeshua was. He was not just some poor schmuch that made good; He was ROYALTY, of the line of Melech Dovid on both sides!
John 6:15 (ESV) Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.
He was doing the miracles expected of ha'moshiach, but that wasn't enough to crown Him king. Many prophets did such miracles, and they were never crowned. But remember it was also prophesied that ha'moshiach would be from the royal line, that of Melech Dovid:
Jeremiah 23:5 (ESV) “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.
We find the fulfillment of this prophecy in the genealogies. And just as the Wise Men knew what it was when they saw His star in the east, so the people knew who was born Melech ha'Yisroel v'Yehuda. They knew because the genealogies were kept. Christian thought tends to just spiritualize the genealogies like God just revealed them to the writers. No, they were for all intents and purposes what we'd think of as a "matter of public record" at the time. And I'll tell you something else- they knew who Miriam and Yoseph were too. Otherwise they wouldn't have had to leave the country (where they were known) when Herod was looking for them. They'd have been just another couple with a baby otherwise. You may say male babies were supposed to have been killed, so that is why they left. But Yeshua was not the only illegal child of that era. Yochanon the Immerser was only six month older, so he would have been in danger of being killed as well. Soldiers don't tend to make that fine a distinction in a child's age; and this hunt went on for a long time. But had Yoseph not taken his family away, someone wanting a reward could have easily ratted them out. They were known.
I don't know if records from before the Babylonian exile were destroyed, but even if they were they would have been known and rewritten by the prophets, priests, scribes, etc. It was that important to them.
So this is one reason the genealogies matter- because Yeshua had to be of the royal line. That had to be known, otherwise how would we prove who is Messiah? And there were then, and are now many false Messiah's. Rav S (my Rabbi) had to deal with one of these just last week. He even had it tattooed on his thighs: "King of Kings and Lord of Lord's!"  I told him if the guy turns out to be right, send him over to divide my groceries and I'll eat well for at least a month! 
But what else? Well, you asked why we should have the separate genealogies of Mirianm and Yoseph. First off to prove He was of the royal line on BOTH sides. But also remember there was a curse placed on Yoseph's line, so he could not father the Messiah directly. He could adopt, and then the child would have all the rights, privileges and titles due a natural son. But to the curse:
Jeremiah 22:24,30 (ESV) “As I live, declares the Lord, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, were the signet ring on my right hand, yet I would tear you off ... Thus says the Lord:
“Write this man down as childless, a man who shall not succeed in his days, for none of his offspring shall succeed in sitting on the throne of David and ruling again in Judah.”
So Yoseph couldn' physically father the king, why could he adopt? Glad you asked:
Haggai 2:23 (ESV) On that day, declares the Lord of hosts, I will take you, O Zerubbabel my servant, the son of Shealtiel, declares the Lord, and make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you, declares the Lord of hosts.”
That he used the similar language indicates the prophet was canceling or, at least to an extent reducing the curse due to Yechoniah's repentence. The virgin birth is an issue because we can know that Yeshua was not born under a line tainted by the curse, but as the final fulfillment of Haggai's prophecy concerning Yoseph's line. It is also kind of a miracle ... one of those things which attest to the fact God done it ... 
Rabbinical Jews, Secular Humanists and the insane (you can know them by their tattoos sometimes  ) will always find excuses not to acknowledge Yeshua as HaMoshiach and/or as Elohim. We are only responsible to tell them; but if we dismiss parts of the record as unimportant then how can we tell them anything? So your question is an important one, and the answer is equally important to know.
Dan C
edit: there are other prophecies which depend on genealogies in order to know they were fulfilled, but I didn't want to write a book so ...
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Post by Questor on Oct 23, 2016 21:38:48 GMT -8
Thank you, that helps. I could only think of Genesis 1:4, in regard to the 'woman's seed', yet I keep seeing people questioning the virgin birth of Yeshua.
Since we have the two witnesses as to the reported nativity, even if Luke was reporting as a journalist, I don't question it, and indeed, love the beauty of the specialness of Yeshua. However, I see why people are uncomfortable with a supernatural birth...they forget that the Deceiver knew about the 'woman's seed', and promptly put in place the other 'divine' births in pagan religions.
As for the odd questions...they get asked or quarreled about in the blogosphere, so they bug me eventually! And so YOU get them! 
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; because they are worthless and futile. 
)
I told him if the guy turns out to be right, send him over to divide my groceries and I'll eat well for at least a month! 
) will always find excuses not to acknowledge Yeshua as HaMoshiach and/or as Elohim. We are only responsible to tell them; but if we dismiss parts of the record as unimportant then how can we tell them anything? So your question is an important one, and the answer is equally important to know.
