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Post by chrisg on Oct 15, 2016 3:26:09 GMT -8
"Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths" The second part is also translated 'all who are native-born Israelites'
So, my question is, does this mean those who are not ethnically Israelites/Jews ought not to build temporary shelters in their backyards? Why, or why not, please?
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Post by alon on Oct 15, 2016 11:30:03 GMT -8
"Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths" The second part is also translated 'all who are native-born Israelites' So, my question is, does this mean those who are not ethnically Israelites/Jews ought not to build temporary shelters in their backyards? Why, or why not, please?
Zechariah 14:16 (ESV) Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths [Sukkoth].
Sukkoth is also called The Festival of the Nations because it’s for everyone, even the Goyim, to come and celebrate. So even if you are not  observant, you should keep Sukkoth. If you are then of course you should keep it.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Oct 18, 2016 17:24:29 GMT -8
That is Two House Two theology saying there is one law for the Jews and another for Gentiles sojourning with the Jews. However that is clearly not what the Bible says:
Exo 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Num 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
As for the gerim toshavim, they did live with Yisroel and keep most all of the laws of Elohim; however physical circumcision (and also figurative circumcision for those who wouldn't keep others) was a big problem for many. Those people could not keep Pesach:
Exo 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Circumcission here can be taken both figuratively, meaning someone not observant, and literally since this was the most common stumbling block for males.
However they did keep most or all the other laws, as was commanded in . Nowhere in scripture is it said there were two laws. It is true the law was added to gradually until the full was given. The nation learned the same way a young Hebrew child is taught and the same way proselytes are taught; a bit at a time. But this is always how salvation has occurred- you accept and trust El Elohe Yisroel, you are joined to Yisroel and you keep the mitzvoth of Yisroel as handed down by their Elohim. Keeping brings a person closer to God, and so many, probably even most by far of the gerim toshavim went on to become fully observant proselytes.
All the meodim were given to everyone; even Pesach. Most want to be a part of this joyous event. In churches this is the most copied (and butchered/messed up) of the 'feasts'. It's the one they all know about and want to emulate. Nowhere are these called "the Feasts of the Jews," but they are the feasts of the Lord; His moedim, His appointed times.
We have some members, mostly inactive now, who are ger toshav. That is fine, since we don't force our views on anyone as far as making them swear to believe or behave a certain way. However we do say they cannot teach Two House Theology here on the forum. Asking questions is ok- we love answering questions. Once satisfactorily answered though only one way may be taught, and that here is One Law.
And as said earlier, Sukkot is one of the festivals non-Jews should keep. Those who survive into the millineum will be keeping it.
Dan C
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Loxody
Junior Member
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Post by Loxody on Oct 19, 2016 6:46:09 GMT -8
First, look at the context of these two. It's talking about Passover.
Secondly, Two House theology is the Hebrew Roots theology saying that all the gentiles who come to the knowlege of are Ephraim (or something similar). I think what you mean is more along the lines of FFOZ, that there are two separate laws for Jew and "gentile".
I disagree with FFOZ's stance on that. I believe there is only one law for both the native jew and the non-Jew, but not everyone is obligated to keep the unless they are a native. If they come to the understanding of and join themselves (grafting in) to the Jewish people, becoming a ger toshav, they aren't technically obligated to keep but they are on the path to being fully obligated and are on the learning path. I know I still have a lot to learn! 
All of the Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Athiests, etc. out there are not obligated to keep , but if Hashem opens their eyes to the truth of , then they are obligated to learn how to keep . However, since they are still not yet fully obligated, the ramifications of breaking are not as serious as it would be for a native Jew.
Hope this makes sense.
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Post by alon on Oct 19, 2016 12:16:50 GMT -8
First, look at the context of these two. It's talking about Passover.
Secondly, Two House theology is the Hebrew Roots theology saying that all the gentiles who come to the knowlege of are Ephraim (or something similar). I think what you mean is more along the lines of FFOZ, that there are two separate laws for Jew and "gentile".
I disagree with FFOZ's stance on that. I believe there is only one law for both the native jew and the non-Jew, but not everyone is obligated to keep the unless they are a native. If they come to the understanding of and join themselves (grafting in) to the Jewish people, becoming a ger toshav, they aren't technically obligated to keep but they are on the path to being fully obligated and are on the learning path. I know I still have a lot to learn!
All of the Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Athiests, etc. out there are not obligated to keep , but if Hashem opens their eyes to the truth of , then they are obligated to learn how to keep . However, since they are still not yet fully obligated, the ramifications of breaking are not as serious as it would be for a native Jew.
Hope this makes sense.
It does make sense. And in many ways you are coming to what I am saying from a different angle. But there are a couple of things there we need to take a closer look at.
First off, only the scripture from Exodus is related to Pesach. That is because it was given just after the Jews were set free and were to celebrate Pesach and Unleavened Bread for the first time. Note that there was "a mixed multitude" with them- non-Hebrews who had joined themselves with them. This is how we were and are saved. In that time, you joined yourself to the Hebrew nation and kept their laws, of which they had just been given the first of the moedim since Shabbath. Pesach. Rav Sha'ul makes it clear in Rom 11 we are still joined to Yisro'el when we are saved. Throughout the Bible circumcision is a euphemism for salvation. it is also a commanded physical act since Gen 17. So while this is talking about circumcision in conjunction with Pesach in Ex 12:49, it is talking about the law as a whole which they were about to be given at Sinai. The sixth Rule of Hillel, Ka-yoẓe bo mi-maḳom aḥer/ Similarity in content to another Scriptural passage, reinforces this interpretation because in Num 15:16 it uses the same language but not in the context of Pesach alone.
Next is the definition of Two House. Any belief that does not apply to a Gentile who comes to trust in Yeshua, but it applies only to the Jew is Two House. Two House doctrine says there are two different bodies within the Christ. FFOZ is schizophrenic Two house, since they have been trying to reinvent themselves and how they see this doctrine ever since they became TH and lost a lot of their support base. HR is confused TH since, well, let's face it- HR is just confused! It's a mess. I know, because I was HR until I found this forum and my search for the truth was given some continuity. But FFOZ and HR are still both TH- just they are different types of TH. Make sense?
But we are clearly told that we are one:
Ephesians 4:4 (ESV) There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—
And nowhere does it say believers who came out of paganism (including the so called "church") are exempt from . It does say however:
John 14:15 (ESV) “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
He didn't say that just the Jews who loved Him had to keep His commandments. This was an unequivocal statement about those who love Him.
Now while Hindus, Muslims, and athiests don't keep His , does this mean they are not required to? Depends on how you look at it. No, they have not accepted and do not keep it. But they are eternally damned. So if we look at this in the context of salvation, then yes, they ARE required to keep if they wish to be saved. What happens when they are saved? they cease to be pagan, goyim, and are grafted into Yisro'el. Poof! They are Jews! In accepting Yeshua, they accept His . But what if they don't have His ? Then they are only accountable for what they know until they know more. But Christians have a problem. They HAVE a copy of . They have been blinded by their own dogma. Since observance is not a prerequisite for salvation, and since they are blinded by the writings of the "fathers" and later men who were just swayed by and indoctrinated in those writings, I can't tell you at what point their salvation is lost. But I also cannot believe that a righteous God will not hold them in some way accountable for what they did know, or for the fact they had the light and refused to look. But make no mistake, all who claim Elohim's salvation are required to keep His laws as much as we know or are able.
Dan C
edit: I answered the question about the ger toshav in my first post. These people are on their way to full observance. Many get hung up on physical circumcision, but even these should eventually make the leap and become fully TO. It may not cost them their salvation if they don't, but it will most likely cost them something in eternity.
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- there are 70 faces to 
