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Post by mystic on Sept 14, 2016 2:08:20 GMT -8
Are we supposed to give 10% to the church?
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Post by alon on Sept 14, 2016 5:51:01 GMT -8
Are we supposed to give 10% to the church? No. The church does not teach  observance, therefore we should not give to them. But:
Malachi 3:8-10 (ESV) Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions. 9 You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, the whole nation of you. 10 Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need.
We should give to a Messianic synagogue if we have one. And we give both tithes and offerings.
If you don't have a local synagogue, then find ways to support the Messianic message (but best to stay away from the TV and internet wolves in tallit and kippah). There was a discussion on this here not long ago, but basically yes, we are supposed to tithe as the very minimum. And give offerings as we can.
Dan C
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Post by kepha on Sept 14, 2016 5:52:34 GMT -8
You must give 10% towards the Name of Elohim, if that is to wards your church, which i doubt, or towards what He leads you to, as long as it is just for doing His Glory. For instance not long ago I gave my 10% to some one I knew struggling as well and then they broke into his house and even stole the food he saved for his children coming to visit him for the weekend. He is a Christian and strong in his believe of our Savoir in his Christian way. I was setting away my 10% for the congregation to give it to our Elder at Sukkot, but then Avinu pressed it on my heart to give it all to this man, so I did.
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Post by mystic on Sept 15, 2016 2:08:35 GMT -8
You raised a great point here kepha, I had always been wondering if I should give to the poor instead of to a church BUT I do realize that a church has expenses so I need to support those expenses. What I am thinking of doing is giving 5% to the church and 5% to the poor work that work in accordance to the scriptures?
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Post by kepha on Sept 15, 2016 6:45:53 GMT -8
Let Elohim guide you to who to give it too, and as Alon already said do not give it to a church you know is misleading the people. Most christian churches is a money making business and will milk every sent they can "in the Name of God" so their pastors and ministers may live in luxury. Where did you ever see you charge some one for the use of the church and for the pastor to bury some one. Did Yeshua ask money for healing the sick, did the Apostles? Let Elohim lead you. I give with great pleasure to my congregation cause I know the money are used solely to bring the Word of the truth to all nations around the world. To send out bibles to set up kabudz for brothers and their family in countries well needed of help. You can look at our Elders, they give all they have and only take what they need. None of them have luxuries live styles and is busy with Avinu's work 27/7.
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Post by alon on Sept 15, 2016 9:26:49 GMT -8
Let's not confuse tithes and offerings here. The tithe is the minimum we owe to Elohim. We don't get to say where this money is spent once it is given. We do get to choose the synagogue to which we regularly give (or church if you can find one teaching observance or if you have not yet come out of Christianity). That money goes to their operating budget and salaries and ofen to parent organizations and missions and such charities as their boards decide on. And I'm like kepha here- one of my criteria is that salaries aren't exorbitant or buildings too finely decorated. Yet still, the servant is worth his wage, and we shouldn't expect our Rabbi's to be paupers or our buildings ugly or run down either.
Offerings are given over and above tithing, and we generally can designate where these go. For instance I designate mine to specific missions through the synagogue. Then there is charitable giving outside the synagogue. I also give to Israeli/Jewish relief and to veterans organizations. And while this is not religious giving, it still is done unto Elohim in that I research, and the organizations I give to spend less than 20% on anything other than actually helping who they are supposed to be helping, so I am not wasting resources that could be better spent. And these orgs do not conflict with Godly principles.
Giving to the poor outside the synagogue is good, and we are to help the poor. But this is generally done in addition to our tithes and offerings, and we are also to do so responsibly. Giving to the indigent or addicts only enables their sin, and would not please Elohim. Same with things like shelters or soup kitchens run by secular organizations where they enable sin on a large scale. Giving to make ourselves feel good doesn't glorify Hashem nor add to His kingdom. So give responsibly no matter what or where you give.
The real problem arises when you have no synagogue to give to. I would suggest that there are organizations which you can support which do get out the Messianic message. But be careful when picking one of these. Prayerfully research them as thoroughly as you can before giving. Also you may find a synagogue which, while not local still needs the support and which you can check out that they are using the money you send wisely. Tithes sent to them would certainly please Hashem if you cannot give locally. I am blessed to be able to tithe to my synagogue. However I also send donations to our sister synagogues in India and Pakistan. They use that money for survival, and I am certain not a penny is wasted. That is the kind of thing we should strive for when giving. I may feel good about giving to them, but it is because Elohim is pleased. I do not feel good before men- they only know someone cared enough to help.
And I never give to TV evangelists or to bloggers or anyone else asking donations to a potentially massive audience. If they are truly wanting to get out the message, they'll get their support locally and do their mass media message without solicitation of money. And for sure I'd never give to a buffoon like Michael Rood or others who make Messianism look foolish! And if anyone other than the synagogue where I attend asks for my tithes, I "ask" them very strenuously not to bother me again. I do give a small amount to the parent synagogue of this forum, as I know first hand they do not waste the money; I am blessed by the forum as well, and they have never once asked for money. I've suggested it before, but never at their request. And I give it here only as an example.
Those are the principles I use, or have used when I had no synagogue to give to. You can do a word search on tithes and offerings, read scripture and come to your own conclusions. But I'd suggest doing as I say here is right in line with scripture. I won't tell you where to give, as that would be to interfere with the working of the Ruach in your own life. You need to do the work, look these things up and give where led. That is your task before Elohim, not before me or anyone else. I'll answer questions based on principles or specifics if I know them. But I won't tell you where to send your money, and I'd suggest anyone who does probably has ulterior motives other than serving Hashem.
Dan C |
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Post by alon on Sept 16, 2016 14:51:28 GMT -8
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Post by Questor on Sept 17, 2016 20:37:15 GMT -8
I grabbed it immediately, and am sending to friends! Thanks for the link!
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Post by alon on Sept 30, 2016 20:32:57 GMT -8
If any of you are still looking for a place to spend tithe money (and I mean anyone without a good local Messiainic synagogue because then that's where yur tithes should be going); but anyhow, I got this from R Reuel and immediately I thought of this discussion. Just a thought:
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Post by mystic on Dec 4, 2018 5:45:24 GMT -8
I had a talk with a Rabbi a while back who told me you tithe AFTER expenses. I am not seeing that this is so in the bible.
Does this mean to give 10% of what's left after you pay your monthly living "expenses" [mortgage, utilities and food]? The Bible states one should give "10% of your first fruits", that suggests to me to first give 10% of one's total monthly income then use what's left for monthly living expenses.
Thing is, if it's done that way then there may not be enough left to cover all of the monthly expenses. Also way I see it, in those days when the command was given people did not have monthly mortgages and utility bills to contend with. Nowadays if we don;t pay those bills then.......I can't see that God would want us to become homeless?
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Post by alon on Dec 4, 2018 5:58:58 GMT -8
I had a talk with a Rabbi a while back who told me you tithe AFTER expenses. I am not seeing that this is so in the bible. Does this mean to give 10% of what's left after you pay your monthly living "expenses" [mortgage, utilities and food]? The Bible states one should give "10% of your first fruits", that suggests to me to first give 10% of one's total monthly income then use what's left for monthly living expenses. Thing is, if it's done that way then there may not be enough left to cover all of the monthly expenses. Also way I see it, in those days when the command was given people did not have monthly mortgages and utility bills to contend with. Nowadays if we don;t pay those bills then.......I can't see that God would want us to become homeless? In Judaism there is a hierarchy to the mitzvoth. Tithing should be done on gross revenue- I agree with you on that. However the higher mitzvah is to provide for your family and yourself. So assuming you didn't go out and buy a mansion and stock it with caviar (in other words, your spending is not exorbitant), paying the mortgage, utilities and groceries would be the higher mitzvah. This may have been what your Rabbi was saying. Dan C |
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Post by mystic on Dec 4, 2018 6:25:45 GMT -8
I see. What I have been doing is giving 10% of Gross but it makes me struggle with my household bills which is why I am looking into this again.
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Post by jimmie on Dec 4, 2018 15:55:59 GMT -8
You tithe on the increase:
Deuteronomy 14:22
Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Deuteronomy 14:28
At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
Deuteronomy 26:12
When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;
The tithe equals one tenth
Genesis 28:22
And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
Numbers 18:21
And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Leviticus 27:32
And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
Numbers 18:26
Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
Hebrews 7:2
To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
What you do with the tithe
Deuteronomy 12:17
Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:
Deuteronomy 26:12
When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;
Numbers 18:21
And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Malachi 3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
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